Would you cut out a close family member for circ'ing? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: Would you cut a close family member out for circ'ing if you knew they had all the info?
Yes! That is a deal-breaker, and I will never speak to him/her again. 3 2.07%
I would severely limit contact, but I want baby boy in my life. 10 6.90%
No, but I would still be upset over their choice. 76 52.41%
No, it's not my business how they raise their child. 56 38.62%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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#31 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 12:05 AM
 
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I'm going through this now with my best friend. I feel it is totally wrong and I've tried to educate her. When it comes down to it I can't cut her out. Even though I've given her info I think sometimes even if printed info and conversasion are right in front of them they don't really *get* it. I know her husband isn't in agreement with me at all.

I think of mistakes I made as a new parent and I can't do it. We all make parenting mistakes and some of them we seriously regret later. There are things I've done that I would trade years of my life to go back and change if I could but I really didn't fully get it then.

I know she needs help navigating the first years of parenting and I'd be doing her and her new baby worse if I were to abandon them. I can still be a good influence in so many other areas.

It really hurts to know that if she has a boy it will likely happen but I know I've done all I can and ultimately it is still legally their choice right or wrong.
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#32 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 12:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
well your nephew is also family and in the hypothetical question in the OP is being irrevocably and heinously hurt by another family member that is supposed to be protecting him.

And so you would cut your nephew out of your life as well, because of something that happened to him that was out of his control? If you disown his parents, you're pretty sure to be disowning him as well.

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#33 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 12:18 AM
 
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I think of mistakes I made as a new parent and I can't do it. We all make parenting mistakes and some of them we seriously regret later. There are things I've done that I would trade years of my life to go back and change if I could but I really didn't fully get it then.
Circumcision is one of the many things I would change if I could go back and do it over. I cannot believe I would ever hold circumcision over someone's head for the rest of their lives unless (1) he/she were fully informed before the decision was made AND (2) were still totally convinced it was the right decision forever and ever AND (3) were smarmy, overbearing and argumentative about the decision being right and my regret being wrong.

Life is too short not to forgive someone his or her shortcomings, especially if there is true regret and guilt over a mistake. We cannot learn if we are perfect all the time.

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#34 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 12:29 AM
 
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And so you would cut your nephew out of your life as well, because of something that happened to him that was out of his control? If you disown his parents, you're pretty sure to be disowning him as well.
Yeah, I don't get that. Also, it seems like people are quick to forget that when parents consent to having their sons circumcised, they truly believe they are doing the best thing for them. That's why it bugs me when it's compared to child abuse or other acts of violence. Yes, it's mutilation to us, but your sister, or SIL, or cousin, or friend who decides to have it done, clearly doesn't feel that way. The intent to hurt another human being isn't there. It is possible to have read through information and researched for hours and talked to your trusted doctor and still come to the conclusion that going ahead with circumcising is the right call for your new baby boy. I know it's hard to understand for many here (and fwiw, I grew up in a family of intact boys, DH is intact, and all 3 of my DS's are intact)... but, I'm pretty sure that every mother and father who agree to circ, does so with the best interest of their child in mind.

I get that cutting off or limiting contact is a coping mechanism for the intactivist, and not to teach the family member or friend a lesson, but I gotta say, to me - when relationships are something to treasure - that sounds really selfish. And surely that sweet baby boy, who may be your nephew, shouldn't have less people surrounding him and loving him because of something outside of his control.

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#35 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 12:35 AM
 
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Protect yourself from.... what? I don't think it likely your relative will try and circumcise you.
Subliminal, you've clearly been around long enough and must understand how seriously many people here take this issue. For many, it's like asking, "Would you continue to interact with a family member who abused their child?" That is what it comes down to. Doesn't matter that it's currently legal or accepted.

As for myself, to be honest, I wouldn't cut someone off only because I want the hope that it can be prevented in the future; even though my opinion on the subject falls into the aforementioned category. I am also hesitant to punish the child for the parent's mistakes; no doubt though it takes them down many pegs in my book.
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#36 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 12:48 AM
 
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Yeah, I don't get that. Also, it seems like people are quick to forget that when parents consent to having their sons circumcised, they truly believe they are doing the best thing for them. That's why it bugs me when it's compared to child abuse or other acts of violence. Yes, it's mutilation to us, but your sister, or SIL, or cousin, or friend who decides to have it done, clearly doesn't feel that way. The intent to hurt another human being isn't there. It is possible to have read through information and researched for hours and talked to your trusted doctor and still come to the conclusion that going ahead with circumcising is the right call for your new baby boy. I know it's hard to understand for many here (and fwiw, I grew up in a family of intact boys, DH is intact, and all 3 of my DS's are intact)... but, I'm pretty sure that every mother and father who agree to circ, does so with the best interest of their child in mind.

I get that cutting off or limiting contact is a coping mechanism for the intactivist, and not to teach the family member or friend a lesson, but I gotta say, to me - when relationships are something to treasure - that sounds really selfish. And surely that sweet baby boy, who may be your nephew, shouldn't have less people surrounding him and loving him because of something outside of his control.
I'd like to comment on the three sections I bolded.
Parents circumcise their children because they love them. They leave them intact because they love them too. The difference between the two is that one has overcome the social brainwashing and cultural conditioning to see the issue in it's factual basis. The other hasn't. BUT, both are acting out of love for their child.

I think that an informed parent who still chooses to circumcise is aware that the baby will suffer some pain but they believe that short term pain will alievate longer term pain (be it physical from infections or other problems they imagine or emotional via teasing). They weigh out what they percieve as pros and cons and come out on the side of cutting. They might know that the child will suffer some physical pain short term, but they carry on with it in a (probably misguided) intention to shave their child later pain.

Limiting contact certainly limits the pain of the informed intactivist being reminded of the assault and pain the baby went through. I understand this so well. I have an aquaintance whose children are well into childhood and I never see or think about those boys without visualizing them strapped to a circumstraint. It's a horrible visual and thought. The pain of circumcision ripples out far and wide and encompasses many more individuals than just the baby. Being an activist means having to face the issue in all it's ugly truth and having to face that sometimes the information we put out will not be taken up and applied. One has to develop some thicker skin. It's not about you as an intactivist and educator. All you can do is know that you conveyed facts with a clearn intention of minimizing harm and pain to a helpless infant. I think it's important for intactivists to develop some tools to handle this emotional pain. Meditate, find some prayers of release, some way to let go of the pain.

I also think that anyone in the position of educating a mother should share the "Regret thread" here at this forum. It speaks so deeply to the sorrow of mothers who were misled into circumcising their sons. It touches in a place that only the shear sorrow of experience can touch. The parents who have shared their stories are very brave and loving souls and I thank them for sharing their painful honesty. it helps so many others to see a side of the issue that they might not have thought about. Here's a link to it: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=112410

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#37 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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OP again--

I live in a very low-circ area, whereas my sister lives in a high-circ area. Do you think this makes a difference? I have not heard either her or her fiancée bring up the locker room argument. Who the heck gets butt naked in the locker room anyway these days? Our school had changing stalls, and even the girls who changed at their lockers were pretty quick to pull their pants back up and pull on a shirt. Do guys really sit around naked in the locker room and compare penises? I doubt it.

Thus far, their reasoning is mostly due to cultural pressure to "fit in". I just do not see it being an issue, even in a high-circ area. Keep it in your pants!

As for the relationship issue (ie: partner will run screaming at the sight of a foreskin) I'd see it as a shallow girl/guy filter.

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#38 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 08:57 AM
 
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I want to remind you to keep the TCAC forum guideline in mind when posting:
Quote:
In an effort to minimize language which might alienate those seeking information, we are cautious about using pejorative terms such as abuse, barbarism, mutilation, etc. when routinely discussing circumcision. Let the facts speak for themselves.
Thanks.

 
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#39 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 09:48 AM
 
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Yes, I do understand that people take the issue seriously. I didn't question anyone who said they take it seriously, or that feel it calls into question that individual as a person. I questioned the "protect myself" statement. Protect yourself from what?
I think Drummer's Wife said it best while I was still responding, it's a coping mechanism. As you went on to note:
Quote:
Physical and emotional abuse has an environmental effect on the people around them. Even if they're not the direct recipient of the abuse, the negativity is contagious and insidious. I completely understand not wanting to continue even a relative-type relationship with someone you know to be abusive, because that absolutely does have an effect on those around it.
Like Puppy Fluffer said when many here see or know a child was circumcised all that they see is the helpless child strapped to a board ect, ect. That is a difficult mental image that has an effect similar to what you've described here. So for some this is what they are trying to protect themselves from.

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I circumcised my kids. I understand some people here see it as abuse. I don't. I see it as a choice, and a choice some people make incorrectly. I made the incorrect choice, for reasons I felt were very valid at the time. In retrospect, they weren't. But my intentions weren't bad.
You see it as a choice, many don't. I don't but, as I said I wouldn't cut off family in particular because, like you, with time may come the realization. I ask, how can one continue to teach if one is not willing to even be there? It's funny, I am by no stretch a religious person but the saying "hate the sin, love the sinner" comes to mind. I can understand though why people responded as they do, because honestly I am not too far from that myself.

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Unlike literal physical abuse, which is KNOWN across the board to inflict hurt(even the abuser is aware of this), I did not KNOW circumcision inflicted hurt.
To be honest, I don't think it's always clear that a physical or mental abuser believes they are doing harm. Consider the parent who smacks or spanks a child excessively because of certain behaviors or events, walking into a street or parking lot or what not. Or the over bearing parent who criticizes a child in hopes it will push them to achieve more. There are a lot of situations, I think, where a parent may believe they are doing good for their child but to others it is clearly a type of abuse. Not all such abuse is thought to be abuse by the abuser. (say that fast three times. )

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I just.... I don't see this as a personal thing. The people choosing to circumcise are not doing anything malicious. They're doing something uninformed. Even if they have the information, they don't understand the magnitude of the issue. That much is VERY clear to me.
To me too, which is why, while I may make myself less available especially when evidence of that abuse is apparent, I doubt I would cut them off. What hope is there then for the future, but I fully understand why people would.
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#40 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 09:52 AM
 
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I live in a very low-circ area, whereas my sister lives in a high-circ area. Do you think this makes a difference? I have not heard either her or her fiancée bring up the locker room argument. Who the heck gets butt naked in the locker room anyway these days? Our school had changing stalls, and even the girls who changed at their lockers were pretty quick to pull their pants back up and pull on a shirt. Do guys really sit around naked in the locker room and compare penises? I doubt it.

Thus far, their reasoning is mostly due to cultural pressure to "fit in". I just do not see it being an issue, even in a high-circ area. Keep it in your pants!
I live in a high-circ area. Honestly, I don't even know any other boys that are intact.

My DS is 4 and we already have him asking why some kids have funny looking penises. We have really good friends with boys the same age as ours. They were out playing in the sandbox and decided to splash around in the baby pool. We all live way out in the country, no need for bathing suits, all the boys jumped in the little pool. Apparently DS noticed that his friend had a different looking penis and asked me about it later that night.

He has also asked me why Daddy's "pee-thing" hangs out.

I'm not saying, "I want him to look like Daddy" is a good argument.

I'm saying that it does come up and it's sooner than I ever expected.

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#41 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 10:00 AM
 
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well your nephew is also family and in the hypothetical question in the OP is being irrevocably and heinously hurt by another family member that is supposed to be protecting him.
This is my *actual* family you're talking about. Real people behind the computer screen here. *waves*

If I cut out my sister (which I have absolutely NO interest in doing anyhow) I'd also be cutting out my nephew. So, how the heck is that helping him in any way? If he knows the truth then he'd grow up thinking that it was somehow his fault that my sister and I didn't talk anymore. If he didn't know the truth he'd think there was some other crazy reason his aunt wasn't part of the family. How is that helping anybody? At best it would leave me not being part of his life, not having any influence, and not getting to see him grow up. At worst it would "irrevocably and heinously hurt" him to know that his freakin' penis was the reason his mom and her sister were no longer close.



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And so you would cut your nephew out of your life as well, because of something that happened to him that was out of his control? If you disown his parents, you're pretty sure to be disowning him as well.
Exactly.


And, how about ILs? They circed my husband. Perhaps I should have created huge strife in my life and refused to ever meet them because they did what THEY THOUGHT WAS THE BEST THING. And, had I done that, I would have never ended up marrying my husband. Therefore I'd not have my husband or my beautiful daughter.

Also, I happen to be pretty fond of my husband's penis, circed or not.

I think that if you'd cut out your sister (or cousin or aunt or whatever) and therefore cut out your nephew that you're just adding a great disservice on top of a sad decision.

How would you feel if your sister cut you out because she didn't believe in co-sleeping? That she thought you were putting your child in DANGER because you were co-sleeping. Well, I'm sure many of you would say good riddance because you don't seem to have strong bonds with your families. But for me- my mom didn't like the idea of cosleeping. But she accepted that it was my choice to make- even if she thought it was dangerous. And, I'm sure you'll say "but it's not dangerous" but to HER it is. So from HER angle it would be the same thing.

Gah, this thread is making me want to bash my head against the wall and cry. It's honestly making me consider cutting MDC out of my life (I'm sure a chorus of "good riddance" will follow).

I should thank you, though. I was feeling horribly sick about the fact that my sister circed her son. I was obviously not even considering cutting her out, but I was completely frustrated with her because of it. But, you've all helped me clarify my feelings and feel less angry with her. Thanks!

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#42 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 10:41 AM
 
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My DSS circed her son even though all 4 of her nephews are intact. I have found myself distancing myself from her family since she had her son. Circumcision isn't the only issue though, she stopped breastfeeding because it was "Cramping her party style"

Where I live circumcising is not as common as leaving your child intact so, it actually does make it seem like more of a selfish or lazy decision. The only people I know who have circed their kids have done so to please the father, not for the good of the child, but to avoid an argument and to me that isn't responsible parenting.

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#43 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 11:21 AM
 
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I could save myself a lot of typing time in these sorts of threads if I just follow Galatea around with a sign. Wonderful, wonderful post, Galatea! I completely agree.

I'm somewhere between 3 and 4, as well. Probably a little closer to 3 than 4, but I'm working on it. My husband is at 2. He doesn't get why this is such a big 'thing' for me.

SAH Mama of two intact kiddos: Kaitlyn (31 Oct '05) and Julian (7 July '09).  signcirc1.gif

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#44 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 12:05 PM
 
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Profound grief.
I guess I just can't understand this. I would grieve far more for the loss of my sister, BIL, and nephew than I would the nephew's foreskin alone.
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#45 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 12:36 PM
 
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I have two SIL's expecting boys in the next two months and I've recently written to them about why we chose not to do it and I included references for them to educate themselves with. I am praying that it will make a difference because the thought just makes me sick but I will not cut them out of my life if they choose to do so. I admit I will loose some respect for them and probably will withdraw some myself but this is my husband's little sister and his brother's wife and I have no plans to cut ties with them.

:
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#46 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 01:43 PM
 
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This has been a hard thread to read...and I'm going to speak up from the other side sort of.

I was an MDC member a few months after I found out I was pregnant. This was before we found out what we were having. I saw this forum and, honestly, rolled my eyes a bit (not trying to be mean, just honest) because circ wasn't something that ever crossed my mind as an issue. I couldn't understand why everyone was making such a big deal out of something so small. I read around when I got bored (and my last tri that was a lot) but never once thought to change my mind. I never brought it up with DH or anyone else past "there are some people that are vehemently opposed to circ, and I just don't understand it." There were/are a lot of STRONG feelings about things on MDC...BFing, RFing, vaxing, etc...so I just put circ in the same "folder" in my head and moved on.

Basically, I WAS fully informed.

And then DS got circ'd. All the hormones and whatnot took over when I changed his gauze and for those first few weeks when he would cry with each diaper change. I was confused. I would read threads on here and see people say things like "mutilation" and "abuse" and feel hated for a decision that I thought had been made in my son's best interest. The way I felt about this forum was the same as when a friend told me that BFing was "disgusting." I tried to put it out of my mind but once I got pregnant again the thought of doing it again made me emotionally distraught. For the first few months of this pregnancy I tried to work through it so I would be okay with circ. It wasn't until I realized that I couldn't that I even considered the other way and started to fight with DH about it. (I'm sure most of you remember my threads on the subject)


If I'd lost friends or FAMILY over it I probably wouldn't have come to the conclusion to not circ my next boy. Seriously. It was the LOVE from the people here when I was curious that made me consider the other side.

Kas (24), Helpmeet to Stefan (25), Mom to Franklin Gaudelio 4/15/09, Jonathan Boswell 1/2/11
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#47 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 02:26 PM
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I guess I just can't understand this. I would grieve far more for the loss of my sister, BIL, and nephew than I would the nephew's foreskin alone.
That's like saying "just an eyelid" or "just the tip of the ear" or "just a little toe," if it were part of our culture to cut those body parts off.

To me, it's more than just the body part affected; it's about bodily integrity.

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#48 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 02:28 PM
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- and, I would guess that most of those truly wouldn't be doing so mainly b/c of the circ issue. It's likely the relationship was already strained.
.
I was very close to my brother and sister-in-law before they cut the genitalia of their newborn.

I seriously distanced myself from them over the circumcision issue, really and truly. So your theory doesn't hold true for everyone.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#49 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 02:51 PM
 
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This has been a hard thread to read...and I'm going to speak up from the other side sort of.

I was an MDC member a few months after I found out I was pregnant. This was before we found out what we were having. I saw this forum and, honestly, rolled my eyes a bit (not trying to be mean, just honest) because circ wasn't something that ever crossed my mind as an issue. I couldn't understand why everyone was making such a big deal out of something so small. I read around when I got bored (and my last tri that was a lot) but never once thought to change my mind. I never brought it up with DH or anyone else past "there are some people that are vehemently opposed to circ, and I just don't understand it." There were/are a lot of STRONG feelings about things on MDC...BFing, RFing, vaxing, etc...so I just put circ in the same "folder" in my head and moved on.

Basically, I WAS fully informed.

And then DS got circ'd. All the hormones and whatnot took over when I changed his gauze and for those first few weeks when he would cry with each diaper change. I was confused. I would read threads on here and see people say things like "mutilation" and "abuse" and feel hated for a decision that I thought had been made in my son's best interest. The way I felt about this forum was the same as when a friend told me that BFing was "disgusting." I tried to put it out of my mind but once I got pregnant again the thought of doing it again made me emotionally distraught. For the first few months of this pregnancy I tried to work through it so I would be okay with circ. It wasn't until I realized that I couldn't that I even considered the other way and started to fight with DH about it. (I'm sure most of you remember my threads on the subject)


If I'd lost friends or FAMILY over it I probably wouldn't have come to the conclusion to not circ my next boy. Seriously. It was the LOVE from the people here when I was curious that made me consider the other side.
I am right here with you.
I am coming from a medical background and very naively believed anything we did of the sort in a hospital (with sterile gloves and drapes, tools, etc) for a newborn boy must be for a reason, and a good one at that, otherwise why would we do it?!
It is the love and support on this board, and those brave and compassionate enough to step forward after they made a choice which cannot be undone and share the personal details of that (and who live to enjoy their beautiful sons, strive to teach them to respect their whole bodies and let them know they've always been loved, and do NOT envision circumstraints every time they see their beautiful boy) have made all the difference for me.
Love is the answer, and it is only in this way, and not in alienation, that we will remain in people's lives and be able to make the biggest difference.
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#50 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 02:51 PM
 
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No matter how wildly upsetting you find circ, and how little you understand the thought process behind choosing it- it isn't about you.

Why take away the one anti circumcision person that may be in that tiny little boy's life? Why deprive him of an aunt? Your outrage is less important than lifelong relationships.

Mother to R- 2/09, & C- 5/11

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#51 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 02:51 PM
 
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Honestly, I don't believe that anyone who chooses to circumcise their child out of love is fully informed. Period.

They may have read a couple of articles online, maybe even watched a video, but I doubt they're "fully informed" about the value of the foreskin, the risks of the procedure, the complications, or even the rate of it worldwide. They may choose not to learn about those things, may close their eyes and pretend they didn't hear it.

If you were to quiz any parent who circ'd about the facts, I guarantee you that they would get the majority of the facts wrong.

Example:
How many babies are estimated to die every year from circumcision?
What do circumcision scars look like?
Exactly how is the procedure performed, by whom, what are their qualifications, and how is the baby's pain being treated?
What is the purpose of the foreskin?
Was your great-grandfather circumcised?
What is the national infant circumcision rate?
Do you have to retract a baby's foreskin to keep him clean?
What countries worldwide routinely circumcise their infants?
What percentage of intact men actually "need" to be circumcised later in life?


If they can't answer those questions, they aren't well-informed.

See what I mean?
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#52 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 02:57 PM
 
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I have removed numerous posts from the thread. Per the TCAC forum guidelines:
Quote:
In an effort to minimize language which might alienate those seeking information, we are cautious about using pejorative terms such as abuse, barbarism, mutilation, etc. when routinely discussing circumcision. Let the facts speak for themselves.
If your post included these words or quoted a post that did, it was removed. Please keep this in mind when posting. Further posting in this manner will lead to removal of the thread and alerts.

 
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#53 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 04:36 PM
 
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Once again, very well said Galatea.

We all, as individuals, have a right to our own feelings, actions and reactions to this. Just because mine may be different than yours (general you), that does not mean that I cannot see the merit in yours or you in mine. If you (again, general you) really want to be open-minded, you will respect that my feelings are valid because they are mine (and vice-versa) and they do not make me any better or worse than you. We each have our own comfort level on this and many other areas in our life; and every situation is different, so it makes sense that there are always going to be different viewpoints.
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#54 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 04:50 PM
 
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I voted that I wouldn't cut them out, but would be upset. To be honest though, there likely would be some distancing (albeit subconscious) that came out of it. I know it's not about me, but it's natural for me to react to it. Think of it this way...if do something (become vegan, switch religions, change my politics, etc) it is natural that some of the people in my life will not fit with those beliefs, and they will naturally not want to spend as much time around me because we don't have those beliefs in common. Circumcision is much the same. It's something I feel very strongly about, so while I would never dream of purposely cutting somebody out of my life, that is a VERY big thing we no longer have in common and it's a natural reaction to withdraw a little when you see someone so blatantly display their radically different beliefs. For the record, when I speak about radically different beliefs, I am speaking more broadly than just circumcision...I just cannot stay close with someone who doesn't believe that autonomy is a person's right.

I also say this as someone whose brother and SIL will circumcise any future sons. It makes me sick, and I know that when they do have a son I will be really pissed off at them for hurting my nephew. However, they're family and will always be in my life to some extent. Thankfully my sister won't circumcise, because we're really close and it would devestate me for that to come between us. I told her what circumcision was and <<that is about what her face looked like.

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#55 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jeminijad View Post
Your outrage is less important than lifelong relationships.
In your opinion.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#56 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 05:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rhiOrion View Post
My sister just circed her son. And I think suddenly cutting contact with my sister is throwing one awful thing after another without even solving the first awful thing!

I can't imagine cutting my sister out of my life because she did something that I disagree with, especially since it was a LEGAL thing to do!

I just try to avoid the topic completely.

I love my sister. She is my SISTER. Family seems to mean more to me than it does to some people.
This. Exactly. Well, almost exactly. My sister had twin boys. They're two years old now, and I just love them to pieces. My kids do too. It would be unfair of me to deprive not only myself, but my sister, nephews and my children of this relationship.

Oh, and my sister is very much the opposite of me. She has made many choices that I wouldn't make. She is also an RN, so of course I though she wouldn't circ her boys. But she did. It makes me sad when I change their diapers or give them baths. Like I said, I love them.
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#57 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 06:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SubliminalDarkness View Post
I guess I just can't understand this. I would grieve far more for the loss of my sister, BIL, and nephew than I would the nephew's foreskin alone.
Exactly.
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#58 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 08:06 PM
 
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To me, the relationship is much more important than circ status.

Happy with my DH, 2 kids, dog, fish, and frogs
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#59 of 59 Old 10-28-2010, 08:34 PM
 
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I am closing this thread and removing numerous posts for taking direct issue with other posters. Since this is the second time the thread has been closed, it will not be reopened after pruning.

 
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