How will RIC come to an end in the United States? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 31 Old 11-01-2010, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Will it stop because of legislation? Litigation? Decreasing popularity? Will it go out with a whimper or a bang? When will we reach the tipping point (and what is that tipping point) where circumcising is no longer considered normal and OK?

I think there are a number of ways it could play out, but that it will happen. I would love to hear everyone's ideas on what they think is the most likely scenario.
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#2 of 31 Old 11-01-2010, 09:31 PM
 
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Will it stop because of legislation? Litigation? Decreasing popularity? Will it go out with a whimper or a bang? When will we reach the tipping point (and what is that tipping point) where circumcising is no longer considered normal and OK?

I think there are a number of ways it could play out, but that it will happen. I would love to hear everyone's ideas on what they think is the most likely scenario.
It will go out with a whimper and much too slowly. I don't think it will be considered 'not ok' until we are well below 10% for at least a generation or two.
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#3 of 31 Old 11-01-2010, 09:39 PM
 
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#4 of 31 Old 11-01-2010, 09:56 PM
 
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I think the doctors need a slap in a face from a lawyer to show how their is no benefit and kids get to risk such a serious damage to the penis .

Why does doctor want to risk a chance of damage of penis just for cosmetic purposes it's absurd .

Until that happens Circ will continue until the doctors wake up and realize they are doing harm .

Which even by law suits from botched circ's still have doctors continuing circumcisions it's like sheesh doctors will need someone from a legal point area to tell them they are harming the kids and risking harming the kids to a serious point to make them understand it !
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#5 of 31 Old 11-01-2010, 09:59 PM
 
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I honestly dont know if it will ever stop There will always be those that will circ then there will be the circ casualties later in childhood due to improper care and Dr.s will use that to keep circ going. Until it is taught in medical school to leave it alone that wont change.

 
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#6 of 31 Old 11-01-2010, 10:19 PM
 
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It will eventually stop. It is illogical, has no medical basis worth the negative consequenses, is against sexual equality, and is against human rights.

But it is so ingrained and the value of foreskin is so unknown and discounted, it is taking a long time. But in the end, RIC will be stopped.

That is my view.

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#7 of 31 Old 11-01-2010, 11:22 PM
 
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I think it has a lot to do with how quickly the US heads toward a more logical single payer healthcare system. That is what stopped it elsewhere, right?

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#8 of 31 Old 11-01-2010, 11:33 PM
 
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It will be on the way out when gov. run health insurance stops paying for it.
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#9 of 31 Old 11-02-2010, 12:21 AM
 
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It will be on the way out when gov. run health insurance stops paying for it.
That needs to be all insurance. If private insurance still pays, and only medicaid stops, it could become a mark of affluence to have it done (as it was for a while in England.)

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#10 of 31 Old 11-02-2010, 12:27 AM
 
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I agree that all insurance companies should stop covering it, stating that it is cosmetic, and then more parents would research and possibly even have to save up to pay for it. I also agree that MD's need to be taught in medical school that there are no health related benefits - or at least that the risks and downsides outweigh any potential/possible benefits. If they felt safer, once in practice, to recommend against RIC, then more parents would opt-out.

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#11 of 31 Old 11-02-2010, 02:25 AM
 
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i think we ARE on the path to ending it. just the fact that this forum exists, and is so helpful in educating so many people, is one indicator. and if each person who reads here tells other people, the "movement" can only grow.

and the fact that there is an intactivist movement.

and this movement is bringing to light all sorts of issues and situations.

i would love to see the physicians who perform circumcisions (OBs of all people) get sued by the men harmed as infants.

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#12 of 31 Old 11-02-2010, 11:02 AM
 
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I think it will just fall out of favor gradually. I think so many people do it because they see it as "the thing to do" but the more they see people not doing it then the more they realize it's not the thing to do. It will snowball. It reminds me of the episode from Seinfeld when the guys decided to grow mustaches but later got tired of them. Seinfeld first, then George. Then when Kramer came in Jerry said "oh, we're not doing that anymore" so Kramer went and shaved. Here's a link to it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F4DT...ext=1&index=41
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#13 of 31 Old 11-02-2010, 11:34 AM
 
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I agree that it will be a gradual decline. Because most parents I know IRL and on mainstream forums choose it for reasons of fitting in or matching daddy, the popularity has to dip quite a bit before many of them will feel comfortable that their child won't be teased. Losing insurance coverage would help to some degree. I am not sure it will become officially illegal (I know there are thoughts about it already being illegal), or at least not until almost no one does it anymore.

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#14 of 31 Old 11-02-2010, 12:34 PM
 
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I think that there will be a steep decline after a tipping point. If the circumcision rate was 90%... that first 20% of people needed to get it to 80% had to be independant spirits with a deep conviction in favor of genital integrity or a serious reason to avoid it- like a preemie or coming from another country where it just is never done. All the while- the other 80% are doing it because "everybody does it" gradually you get people who are cautious, researchers and questioners... they come to the question from the assumption that it's the thing to do- but they may discover that they don't really need to do it... they fall out of the mob, and you have 70% left doing it because "everybody does it"... then you have some people who wanted to do it, who aren't in the know or specially educated- but they can't do it because medicaid won't pay- so they have to live without getting it done... now you are down to 50% still doing it because "everybody does it"

Now me- you couldn't get me to do it even if 99% of people did it- I wouldn't. But we don't need to convince 99% of people to adopt my level of tenacious protection in order to get the pendulum to swing- because the majority of people are mob rules mentality and eventually ...and the rate may have to be all the way down to 20% and the myth is still being put forth that "everybody does it" when they finally catch on to that- they wil drop it too. That's why- things like medicaid - are important even if some private insurers still cover it. That big portion of the population on medicaid is a big step toward critical mass.
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#15 of 31 Old 11-02-2010, 01:46 PM
 
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I honestly don't think it will due to religious reasons.

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#16 of 31 Old 11-03-2010, 12:51 AM
 
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Insurance dropping it as a covered procedure is the only way I see it happening on a mass scale. Otherwise it's a slow battle with small victories. And that's a maybe.
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#17 of 31 Old 11-03-2010, 01:46 PM
 
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I honestly don't think it will due to religious reasons.
I don't think it will be completely gone... I suppose when I contemplate it coming to an end, I have to admit that the end will only come in Christian or secular populations, which are a majority here in the US.

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#18 of 31 Old 11-03-2010, 02:16 PM
 
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I honestly don't think it will due to religious reasons.
I agree. I just attended a Jewish funeral in New Jersey.... they all had bris stories to tell at one point. And they don't listen to any points an outsider may make.. it just something that is done.
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#19 of 31 Old 11-03-2010, 11:03 PM
 
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ya know... why don't insurance companies drop it? Does anybody have better insight into that question? I don't understand because it seems like they'd save a lot of $$ if they stopped covering it and it isn't like people can do anything about it. I hate how big insurance runs the US, but in that case, their bottom line seems to line up with the right thing to do in this case. People could always buy a "cosmetic surgery" rider at extra cost...

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#20 of 31 Old 11-04-2010, 12:48 AM
 
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I think the pressure needs to be placed on Medicaid to stop funding it. It's my understanding that the private sector insurance tends to follow the government sector in regards to health insurance.
I think an additional push - and a hugely important one - will be law suits in the private sector. The sad case of baby Mario Delgato in Florida is one to watch. (For those who are not familiar, the baby was circumcised against the mother's written and multiple verbal instructions that he was NOT to be circumcised. He spent 10 days in the NICU and on day 8, when mom went home to take a shower, he was taken from the NICU and circumcised. The hospital is claiming a misreading of the consent form. She is persuing legal action on the grounds of battery.)
Also, the boys who were circumcised after the signing of the federal law banning any form of genital cutting on minor females will be reaching legal age in about 5 years. Those young men will have a window of time (a few years depending upon the statute of limitations for their state) to seek legal action on the grounds of lack of equal protection under the law. I think the legal areana might get interesting. I hope to live long enough to see this issue before the US Supreme Court. I don't think the political climate is ready for it yet.
Right now, I think the most effective place of action is with individual parents. The medical community is far far away from ceasing to solicit circumcision but educated parents do refuse their offers. The intactivist efforts to educate individuals are very important.

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#21 of 31 Old 11-04-2010, 10:14 AM
 
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ya know... why don't insurance companies drop it? Does anybody have better insight into that question? I don't understand because it seems like they'd save a lot of $$ if they stopped covering it and it isn't like people can do anything about it. I hate how big insurance runs the US, but in that case, their bottom line seems to line up with the right thing to do in this case. People could always buy a "cosmetic surgery" rider at extra cost...
*Bolding mine*
Obviously, this is only my opinon, but I think that it quite likely has something to do with the insurance companies having to pay for all of the more expensive (general anesthesia, etc etc) circumcisions that have become "medically necessary" (*ahem* as in, CAUSED by improper care instructions or other iatrogenic issues) when the boys are older. It's cheaper for them to pay for circs of newborns than it is for older children.

As for "when will it stop?".. I'm afraid that it won't until all of those in the medical profession get their heads out of their butts and learn about the true function of the foreskin and how NOT to treat it. Until then, insurance companies will continue to pay for its removal.. and it will never stop until the vast majority of insurance companies stop paying for it. I know of so many parents who have used "insurance covering it" as just another one of their reasons for having it done.. they figure if it wasn't "needed", their insurance wouldn't cover it.

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#22 of 31 Old 11-04-2010, 07:09 PM
 
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Right now, I think the most effective place of action is with individual parents. The medical community is far far away from ceasing to solicit circumcision but educated parents do refuse their offers. The intactivist efforts to educate individuals are very important.
I agree. It was this forum that made me research and then ultimately reject circumcision as a valid choice. Overcoming the fear of talking about it with other parents is a huge first step. I never would have thought twice about circumcision at all if a dear intact friend hadn't gently asked whether we intended to cut our son. He took a huge risk by doing that, but he also ensured that any future children of ours will be intact, and his bravery has encouraged me to gently talk to other parents about their plans. I'm not always successful, but every little boy saved from this brutality is a huge victory, and I cherish the success stories.

Just talk about it, mamas. The worst that can happen is you offend someone who is about to do something much, much worse to their helpless child than cause mere offense. It's always worth a try.

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#23 of 31 Old 11-06-2010, 11:30 AM
 
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It will be on the way out when gov. run health insurance stops paying for it.
Sadly it has not played out this way in Canada. It is at least a decade since the last province (Manitoba) stopped paying for circumcisions, yet it seems to continue at far too high a frequency. I naively thought that our rate in Alberta was down to about 10% (as quoted on the genital integrity website), then somewhere else read a figure of around 40%. I was confused , so on my last visit to the doctor, I asked her what she has observed. Her response was "about that" to the 40% figure. I am horrified. It was around 50% when my ds was born 29 years ago. We have not made much progress.
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#24 of 31 Old 11-06-2010, 12:03 PM
 
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After the email I got back about how a family member is doing it because "it's easier to clean, less chance of infection and getting teased in the locker room" I'm feeling rather negative about it ever coming to en end.

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#25 of 31 Old 11-06-2010, 08:12 PM
 
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Once doctors and hospitals stop soliciting genital surgery and by default educate parents about their sons normal intact prepuce organ, "circumcision" will stop.

Doctors really need to stop suggesting boys, whom born as they come from the womb (whole & healthy) are ignorant, weak beings lacking the intelligence needed for hygiene and attract diseases and therefor need to be "fixed".

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#26 of 31 Old 11-07-2010, 12:07 AM
 
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The rates drop very quickly when medical people change their attitude. This is the most important factor. Look at what happened in the UK and NZ.

The financial incentives for circumcisions need to be removed.

Medical schools need to teach the value of the foreskin, its normal development
etc and the importance of not retracting. etc etc

OB/Gyns need to stop doing them completely. It is out of their area.

Removal of insurance is also important.
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#27 of 31 Old 11-07-2010, 01:24 AM
 
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Sadly it has not played out this way in Canada. It is at least a decade since the last province (Manitoba) stopped paying for circumcisions, yet it seems to continue at far too high a frequency. I naively thought that our rate in Alberta was down to about 10% (as quoted on the genital integrity website), then somewhere else read a figure of around 40%. I was confused , so on my last visit to the doctor, I asked her what she has observed. Her response was "about that" to the 40% figure. I am horrified. It was around 50% when my ds was born 29 years ago. We have not made much progress.
Being right next to the US may be keeping the rates higher. There is a fair amount of people going back and forth across the boarder. The UK, Australia and NZ all offered it just as Canada did. They stopped coverage sooner and rates dropped further in those countries though.

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#28 of 31 Old 11-07-2010, 11:29 AM
 
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Eepster, you might be right that there is some influence there. What I suspect from the disparity in figures is that few babies are circumcised in the hospital at birth, which is nationaly less than 10% (I think), however many are taken back to the doctor later to have it done. Hence the 40% figure. What I find distressing is that I have heard of some of our doctors actualy encouraging and soliciting circumcision. I thought Canada was past that for the most part.

The only way that this cruel custom is ever going to end (excepting religious considerations) is when our medical schools start teaching the value and function of the foreskin to their students.
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#29 of 31 Old 11-07-2010, 06:58 PM
 
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I absolutely think it'll be a gradual decline, which will force doctors to become more knowledgeable.

For example, yesterday my friend posted an anti-circumcision status, and three 20-ish males participated. They're just normal American guys, certainly not crunchy and definitely not hippie. Two said that they believed in leaving it up to the child, one said he was pro-circumcision but politely participated and wasn't quite so pushy by the end and has told me that he wouldn't fight if his wife wanted to leave his kids intact. My generation also is shaping up to be less religious and more pro-choice, which will lead to less circumcision. I've seen several posts online from my peers that say "I think uncut penises are gross, but hey, it's not my penis and not my decision." It's a strange attitude to have I suppose, but those boys are intact at the end of the day.

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#30 of 31 Old 11-07-2010, 08:19 PM
 
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Well, our ped, an old guy is currently having new peds work in his office under his wing. The new drs are in the room during visits. At EVERY appt the old ped says to me and the new ped, "and NO ONE is to retract his penis for ANY reason!".

I just learned yesterday that Dh's cousins, 18 and 14 are intact. Even though Uncle is.
SIL and I have been talking about circ with her soon to be ttc and she's not allowing it.

So, things are changing. Of all the moms I know...even Dhs mom..their cut their sons to match dad. So with all these cases above the cycle had ended.

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