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#31 of 43 Old 12-09-2011, 08:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hakunangovi View Post

Especialy in the past, but even today, there are many doctors and urologists out there who will whack off a foreskin for any hint of a problem, be it real or percieved.  What really annoys me is that they are so uneducated/dismissive of less invasive procedures that preserve the foreskin.  


don't you think that this is b/c the doctors get paid so much to do circumcisions? i'm personally of the belief that this is pretty much what it's ALL ABOUT. this is exactly why the doctors hype it up and exaggerate any perceived "health" or "cleanliness" issues, while downplaying the (very real) risk of severe hospital born infection, medical errors and diminished sexual capacity FOR LIFE. 

 

and people buy it b/c in our culture at least, doctors are treated as "Gods" who know it all. 

 

i personally think it's about time (long past time) to pull back the curtain so to speak, to reveal the truth, to stop these misguided doctors in their tracks, who have no appreciation for healthy intact bodies and IGNORE a helpless baby's intense and shocking pain... just to make $300 off a non-medical, unnecessary, cosmetic surgery done without anaestesia.

 

i applaud the presence of this forum, and the work of national organizations bringing this issue to light and revealing the truth.

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#32 of 43 Old 12-10-2011, 05:28 AM
 
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I agree! I know a 3 y/o who had 2 UTI's his whole life and his ped said he HAD to be circ'ed! IDK if the mother did it or not...I sure hope not. She wasn't an intactivist or anything, just left him like his father...


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#33 of 43 Old 12-10-2011, 07:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tropicana View Post


don't you think that this is b/c the doctors get paid so much to do circumcisions? i'm personally of the belief that this is pretty much what it's ALL ABOUT. this is exactly why the doctors hype it up and exaggerate any perceived "health" or "cleanliness" issues, while downplaying the (very real) risk of severe hospital born infection, medical errors and diminished sexual capacity FOR LIFE. 

 

and people buy it b/c in our culture at least, doctors are treated as "Gods" who know it all. 

 

i personally think it's about time (long past time) to pull back the curtain so to speak, to reveal the truth, to stop these misguided doctors in their tracks, who have no appreciation for healthy intact bodies and IGNORE a helpless baby's intense and shocking pain... just to make $300 off a non-medical, unnecessary, cosmetic surgery done without anaestesia.

 

i applaud the presence of this forum, and the work of national organizations bringing this issue to light and revealing the truth.



Tropicana,  Absolutely, I think you are correct. I am sure the $$$ are a huge incentive.  There are other factors at play too though.  I think many have not bothered to upgrade their knowlege since they left medical scool, and sadly have no appreciation of the form, function or value of a foreskin.  Then there is the ego issue.  Once a doctor has performed one circumcision, he feels compelled to continue to save face from admitting that he made a mistake the first time.  As we are all well aware, the medical community as a whole is loath to admit errors, and mistakes are swept under the rug if at all possible.

 

I ,  too, applaud all the pro genital integrity organisations and individuals out there, who are trying to get the truth out to a largely ignorant public who do not see the deception being shoved at them by their doctors.  We will win in the end!!

 

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#34 of 43 Old 12-10-2011, 07:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

  We have a family friend who wasn't circ'd but his wife was doing all she could to change his mind.  Kind of ruined our friendship with her when we got thrown in the mix and asked our opinion...  The boy is still intact and momma is still pissed about it.  When she was pregnant with their daughter he brought home literature about FGM and told her he thought it was a good idea... I think he was just trying to piss her off more but hopefully it worked to at least start changing her mind.


Good for the Dad.  This is a bit unusual for the Momma to want to circumcise (as opposed to the Dad) - What was her reason?  I love the bit about their daughter.  Most people are horrified at the thought of FGM, so I hope it made her realise that Circumcision is not much different.
 

 

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#35 of 43 Old 12-11-2011, 01:06 PM
 
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I haven't read the thread yet, but I haven't heard of anyone needing this in DH's family (though I'm not sure about their status). I'm from Europe and I have never heard of any adult man in my family in need of circumcision. Most still be an American thing. And both my grandfathers were in nursing homes for their last year (s). Never once got a UTI. Maybe American nursing home personnel just has no idea how to properly clean an intact man?

 

@ Haku: It is not unusual at all for moms to want that. I have heard from so many, many mainstream mothers that they a) want the son to look like daddy or b) they think foreskins are ugly and would never allow their sons to have an ugly penis/have a future girlfriend reject him for it. Seriously, I have even heard women saying they would never sleep with an intact guy. It's quite shocking. I must say DS;s foreskin has hence become a method of bad girlfriend prevention ;) - who would want a partner who would force you to alter your genitals?!

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#36 of 43 Old 12-12-2011, 05:39 AM
 
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Most physicians I've met genuinely believe in circumcision, that it has therapeutic value.  You can't make generalizations about their motivations, because just like everyone else, each person's reasoning is different.  I hate to see this speculation, because the way this sort of thing works online is that in a few months, it will be repeated as fact that this is why physicians do it, as opposed to speculation.
 

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Originally Posted by tropicana View Post


don't you think that this is b/c the doctors get paid so much to do circumcisions? i'm personally of the belief that this is pretty much what it's ALL ABOUT. this is exactly why the doctors hype it up and exaggerate any perceived "health" or "cleanliness" issues, while downplaying the (very real) risk of severe hospital born infection, medical errors and diminished sexual capacity FOR LIFE. 

 

and people buy it b/c in our culture at least, doctors are treated as "Gods" who know it all. 

 

i personally think it's about time (long past time) to pull back the curtain so to speak, to reveal the truth, to stop these misguided doctors in their tracks, who have no appreciation for healthy intact bodies and IGNORE a helpless baby's intense and shocking pain... just to make $300 off a non-medical, unnecessary, cosmetic surgery done without anaestesia.

 

i applaud the presence of this forum, and the work of national organizations bringing this issue to light and revealing the truth.



 


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#37 of 43 Old 12-12-2011, 05:41 AM
 
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It depends on the type of FGC versus MGC we're talking about.  Some type 1 and 2 FGC are much different than RIC.  Penile subincision is more drastic than RIC.  These broad brush strokes don't really work in real life.
 

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Originally Posted by hakunangovi View Post


Good for the Dad.  This is a bit unusual for the Momma to want to circumcise (as opposed to the Dad) - What was her reason?  I love the bit about their daughter.  Most people are horrified at the thought of FGM, so I hope it made her realise that Circumcision is not much different.
 

 



 


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#38 of 43 Old 12-12-2011, 10:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LonelyPageTurnr View Post

It depends on the type of FGC versus MGC we're talking about.  Some type 1 and 2 FGC are much different than RIC.  Penile subincision is more drastic than RIC.  These broad brush strokes don't really work in real life.


They really do, because most people are horrified by any kind of surgical alteration to a female's genitals, but those same people don't even blink at RIC. If people were solely horrified by the most severe forms of FGM, then your point would be valid. But, they're not. Ask most people how they'd feel about a doctor nicking a baby girl's clitoral hood...and compare that to their reactions to routine circ of newborn boys. The reactions are completely inconsistent.

 


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#39 of 43 Old 12-12-2011, 11:59 AM
 
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But they're not across the board horrified with all FGC.  They think that excision and infibulation is the most common type.  I remember that blog with the little girl getting circumcised, and there was so little tissue removed you could hardly see it.  I think that the people who think that's mutilation and RIC is fine are crazy, personally.  That doesn't mean that we can MAKE UP comparisons that aren't valid.  Period.  It's a lie, no matter how 'most' people feel about anything.

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They really do, because most people are horrified by any kind of surgical alteration to a female's genitals, but those same people don't even blink at RIC. If people were solely horrified by the most severe forms of FGM, then your point would be valid. But, they're not. Ask most people how they'd feel about a doctor nicking a baby girl's clitoral hood...and compare that to their reactions to routine circ of newborn boys. The reactions are completely inconsistent.

 



 


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#40 of 43 Old 12-13-2011, 10:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LonelyPageTurnr View Post

But they're not across the board horrified with all FGC.  They think that excision and infibulation is the most common type.  I remember that blog with the little girl getting circumcised, and there was so little tissue removed you could hardly see it.  I think that the people who think that's mutilation and RIC is fine are crazy, personally.  That doesn't mean that we can MAKE UP comparisons that aren't valid.  Period.  It's a lie, no matter how 'most' people feel about anything.



 



Okay. You know different people than I do. I've never met anybody who isn't horrified by the idea of any kind of FGM, no matter how slight it is.

 

But, the post you were originally answering said, "Most people are horrified at the thought of FGM, so I hope it made her realise that Circumcision is not much different.". That's what was being addressed - people's horror at FGM. So, what level of FGM is required to inspire horror/disgust is absolutely relevant to that quote.

 

Nobody's making up comparisons. Yes - the most severe forms of FGM are more severe than RIC...but that's like saying it's an "invalid" comparison if someone is horrified at chopping off a finger, and compares it to chopping off a hand. The loss of the hand is obviously more severe and drastic - but it doesn't make the loss of the finger any less of an assault or mutilation. This weird mental divide we have between removing infant boy's foreskins to lessen sexual pleasure (and that is where it came from, in the non-Jewish American culture) and cutting up female genitals to lessen their sexual pleasure is really weird.

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#41 of 43 Old 12-13-2011, 03:26 PM
 
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My grandpa was circumcised in his 70's - I have no idea why, though I know it was health-related (or at least that's what they were told). I was 7 or 8 years old at the time - it was the late 60's.

 

I have an Internet friend who was circumcised as an adult because of paraphimosis - definitely not his choice, and he's still unhappy aobut it.

 

I have a coworker whose husband chose to get circumcised (she told me this when I was pregnant, and the subject came up). I don't know her well enough to ask for details, though I got the impression it was primarily a "locker room" concern for him. I would love to know how they both feel about it now, 15 years later.

 

A neighbor's son was circumcised at age 5 - I would bet big money that the diagnosis was "phimosis".


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#42 of 43 Old 12-16-2011, 04:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tropicana View Post


don't you think that this is b/c the doctors get paid so much to do circumcisions? i'm personally of the belief that this is pretty much what it's ALL ABOUT. this is exactly why the doctors hype it up and exaggerate any perceived "health" or "cleanliness" issues, while downplaying the (very real) risk of severe hospital born infection, medical errors and diminished sexual capacity FOR LIFE. 

 

and people buy it b/c in our culture at least, doctors are treated as "Gods" who know it all. 

 

i personally think it's about time (long past time) to pull back the curtain so to speak, to reveal the truth, to stop these misguided doctors in their tracks, who have no appreciation for healthy intact bodies and IGNORE a helpless baby's intense and shocking pain... just to make $300 off a non-medical, unnecessary, cosmetic surgery done without anaestesia.

 

i applaud the presence of this forum, and the work of national organizations bringing this issue to light and revealing the truth.


I think the  VERY reason dr.'s are so quick to circ is because and I quote from my pediatrician... "IT IS EASY MONEY!"  My ped does not circ but has lots of friends who do.  I was shocked when she said that but it really resonated with me.  She said for what they get paid for a 15 minute procedure....makes every dr. quick to recommend it.  Scary but TRUE.

 

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#43 of 43 Old 12-20-2011, 05:28 PM
 
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The point of my post was that most people are pretty uneducated about FGC, and think that all or most of it is ex/inf, the most drastic kind.  Since this has been made such an issue over the last 20 years, and it's not a cultural norm, they have unreasonable feelings about it.  Some FGC is more invasive than MGC here, but some MGC elsewhere (penile subincision for instance) is much more invasive than many types of FGC.   The unreasonable feelings aren't that it's bad, but that it's like, the worst thing in the world.  In some cases, it absolutely is, and in some cases, I feel that it's not so much.

I'm not sure I'm explaining this right, but I am trying.  In other words, people's opinions about FGC are so unreasonable that the blog of the little girl being circumcised is far far more horrifying than what's done on a daily basis to boys here, and that's just messed up.  Was she harmed?  Yes, but not compared to what's done to boys here every day.  So I don't think their reactions can be used as a gauge for anything.  Further, I think that comparing the two, when American culture is so vehemently repulsed by FGC and accepting of MGC is a bad move, and not likely to win very many arguments.

 


 

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Okay. You know different people than I do. I've never met anybody who isn't horrified by the idea of any kind of FGM, no matter how slight it is.

 

But, the post you were originally answering said, "Most people are horrified at the thought of FGM, so I hope it made her realise that Circumcision is not much different.". That's what was being addressed - people's horror at FGM. So, what level of FGM is required to inspire horror/disgust is absolutely relevant to that quote.

 

Nobody's making up comparisons. Yes - the most severe forms of FGM are more severe than RIC...but that's like saying it's an "invalid" comparison if someone is horrified at chopping off a finger, and compares it to chopping off a hand. The loss of the hand is obviously more severe and drastic - but it doesn't make the loss of the finger any less of an assault or mutilation. This weird mental divide we have between removing infant boy's foreskins to lessen sexual pleasure (and that is where it came from, in the non-Jewish American culture) and cutting up female genitals to lessen their sexual pleasure is really weird.



 


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