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-   -   Does anyone regret NOT circumcising? *this is NOT a pro circ thread, just curious about the medical complications* (http://www.mothering.com/forum/44-case-against-circumcision/1356931-does-anyone-regret-not-circumcising-not-pro-circ-thread-just-curious-about-medical-complications.html)

tinyblackdot 06-29-2012 07:38 PM

 Has anyone NOT circumcised their child, and then later regretted it? I don't even know what I am having yet, and I am pretty sure that IF i have a boy we will not circumcise, BUT i have talked to many men about the idea, and they all say that I SHOULD do it. One of them elected to be circumcised as an adult, and one had a horror story about a "friend" that had to go through a horrible surgery as a teen. So now I'm worried that my choice for my child will lead to him just having to have a more painful procedure later down the line.

 

 I feel like i wouldn't want my father making any decisions about my genitals, and therefore, i should really rely on the overwhelming opinion of other men including my DH. But then i wonder if they even know what in the heck they are talking about.......but then again if they are missing anything then whats the big deal right? But i don't want parts of my babies body just cut off for no real reason.

 

 *please know that I am 100% not here to debate it at all, I am here to seek experience and advice from mothers that have been through making the tough decision, i like every parent, would like to make the best decision for my child*


MichelleZB 06-29-2012 08:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyblackdot View Post

 Has anyone NOT circumcised their child, and then later regretted it? I don't even know what I am having yet, and I am pretty sure that IF i have a boy we will not circumcise, BUT i have talked to many men about the idea, and they all say that I SHOULD do it. One of them elected to be circumcised as an adult, and one had a horror story about a "friend" that had to go through a horrible surgery as a teen. So now I'm worried that my choice for my child will lead to him just having to have a more painful procedure later down the line.

 

 I feel like i wouldn't want my father making any decisions about my genitals, and therefore, i should really rely on the overwhelming opinion of other men including my DH. But then i wonder if they even know what in the heck they are talking about.......but then again if they are missing anything then whats the big deal right? But i don't want parts of my babies body just cut off for no real reason.

 

 *please know that I am 100% not here to debate it at all, I am here to seek experience and advice from mothers that have been through making the tough decision, i like every parent, would like to make the best decision for my child*

 

I think you should take those horror stories with a grain of salt. If you read some threads here, you'll discover that a lot of American doctors recommend circumcision for perfectly healthy intact penises, so that story about the teenager who needed a circumcision? It's likely he didn't actually need one.

 

They used to tell people to pull back (retract) kids' foreskins to clean underneath, but we know now that doing that can damage the foreskin and cause scar tissue that can lead to problems later. Don't retract, and you won't have any of those problems. Also, many doctors used to think that if the foreskin didn't retract itself by, say, 3, then it needed surgery, but we know now that the average age of retraction is much later, and that some perfectly healthy penises never retract. Also, infections (rare as they are) can be treated with antibiotics, not amputation.

 

You say you wouldn't want your father to make decisions about your genitals, so you don't want to make decisions about your son's penis. But... if your mother decided to circumcise you, that'd be perfectly fine because she's the same sex as you? That doesn't make sense. No, the only person who should decide to alter your son's penis is YOUR SON. Remember that it's his body, not yours, not your husband's, not your male friends. Their opinion doesn't matter, because it's not their penis, is it? It's his.

 

I urge you to do nothing drastic to your son's penis and let him decide.

 

I very much doubt you will find any mothers of intact boys on this forum who regret it, so I'm not sure how realistic this question is.

 

I'm proud that my son is intact, and the idea that he is still makes me happy when I think about it.


artekah 06-29-2012 08:57 PM

ITA with MichelleZB. I don't think circumcised men (almost all circed as newborns) are the best sample for opinions on this topic. You should instead be asking intact men if they wish they were circumcised. My bet is you'd get a lot of laughs from that group.

Not that anecdotes are a good source of information anyway. Objective research is the way to go. The more you learn about circumcision...like how it's done, and real facts about the human foreskin and what it's for, actual statistics, etc...NOT anecdotes, the more horrified you will be. The evidence against RIC really is that huge.

Your son can always be circumcised later. But if you make the choice for him it can never be undone. Seems like an easy decision to me!

ETA: By the way, don't assume that being circumcised as a teen or adult is any more painful!!! Babies simply can't articulate how much pain it is. They are helpless, voiceless victims. And how convenient that they won't grow up to remember that pain. If they could, this barbaric practice would end in one generation.

Storm Bride 06-29-2012 09:05 PM

Well, I never made the "tough" decision to leave my sons intact, because there was absolutely no possibility that I'd allow them to be cut. It's the one thing I've ever laid down the law about (with both my ex and dh).

 

Neither of my boys has ever had a problem, or any kind of complicated. My oldest is 19. When I first started reading this forum (he was 12), I occasionally read stuff out to my dh, and sometimes ds1 heard me. At some point, he asked what I was talking about and I explained circumcision to him. He literally twitched - his whole body, and got one of the most horrified looks I've ever seen on a human face, and said, "why would they do that?". We've discussed it a few times since, and his basic attitude is that anybody who wanted to cut off his foreskin would have to have a lot of big, strong people to hold him down, because he'd fight it with every fiber of his being.

 

DS2 is only six (seven in July), and doesn't know about circumcision yet. But, he's never had any problems at all, and is totally happy with his penis, just the way it is.

 

I am confused as to why you think you could be setting your son up for a more painful procedure in future. Who told you it hurts an older boy/man more than a newborn? I don't see any way that could possibly be true, as the newborn foreskin is fused to the glans, and has to be torn free before being cut off.

 

ETA: A grown man (or older boy) also doesn't have to deal with an open wound in a diaper. Every time I even think about a circ'd baby in a diaper, I feel nauseated.


Storm Bride 06-29-2012 09:08 PM

I also wanted to comment on this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinyblackdot View Post

 

I feel like i wouldn't want my father making any decisions about my genitals,

 

I wouldn't really want either of my parents making decisions about my genitals, unless there was a medical need for them to do so. As such, I left the genitalia of all four of my children just the way they were at birth. My children can make any cosmetic decisions they choose to make, when they're old enough to do so. If I'd cut parts off of them, they wouldn't be able to do so.

 

This wasn't a tough decision. I left the decision about keeping, or not keeping, the foreskin up to the person who actually has said foreskin.


tinyblackdot 06-29-2012 10:06 PM

 I guess my concern is that i came to this thread looking for information and it seems like every other post is something about an infected penis, or UTI, or Dr saying a child needs a surgery. So to me its all good to say that circ isn't necessary, but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?


artekah 06-29-2012 11:54 PM

Because this is where parents of intact boys come for advice. It's not that intact boys have more problems than circumcised boys (in fact, there are all kinds of complications resulting from circ!) But when they do, they post here, where tons of knowledgable people hang out. If you post elsewhere on the Internet, you'll probably run into a lot of ignorance about normal male genitalia.

You see a lot of threads about doctors recommending circ because in the U.S., as a whole, doctors are shockingly ignorant about normal male genitalia. They have been trained to see circ as the answer to almost every problem. A lot of the time when people are talking about a "problem" here, it's not actually a problem at all--not being able to retract by a certain age, for example. But they've been led to believe there is a problem by a shockingly ignorant doctor.

This is not to say that people don't ever have real problems with their foreskins--of course they do, as much as any other normal part of the human body.

It's like going to a forum about eye health and wondering why so many people seem to be having problems with their eyelids. Well, it's not because everyone would be better off cutting off their eyelids. It's because they figured they could get their questions answered if they asked on the eye health forum. wink1.gif

rubidoux 06-30-2012 01:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyblackdot View Post

 I guess my concern is that i came to this thread looking for information and it seems like every other post is something about an infected penis, or UTI, or Dr saying a child needs a surgery. So to me its all good to say that circ isn't necessary, but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?

 

I can understand why it'd look that way, but I hope that you don't act on that impression.  My husband and his brother are intact and my two sons and just about all of my friends' sons and I don't know of anyone having had any trouble whatsoever.  I doubt my BIL would advertise if there were trouble, but as for the rest of that group I would know.  I can't think of a single IRL scary uncirced story that I've heard.  I also don't know of any parent that regrets not having circ'ed.  I do know one mom who feels horrible for having circ'ed her son.  She was 20 when he was born and had no idea that there were people who didn't circ or that it was an option.  And now she's horrified that there's no turning back.  :(  But I'm sure you've seen those stories on this forum.  

 

I am completely pleased with the state of my intact sons' penises, and they seem to be, too.  

 

I have to agree with the other posters who said that there's no reason to believe it hurts less for a baby.  I had to take care of a baby after his circ in a daycare once (he was six months old) and it was so awful.  Can you imagine constantly peeing on a wound?  And in a diaper...  Gah!  It was just gross and horrible.  And it was certainly very painful for him.  I also think there is something particularly sadistic about having it be one of baby's very first experiences outside the womb.  I guess we do that because we believe for some reason that it doesn't matter so much then, but I feel like it's just the opposite.  If my 20 year old son decided to get circ'ed, I don't think I'd worry about the pain much at all, even if it was severe, just like I don't think any of us would worry so much about our adult child's pain from any cosmetic procedure.  They will understand their pain and probably be able to treat it if needed.  

 

Also, I don't think there's any reason (if anyone knows otherwise correct me) that you can't drag them down to the doctor at any age and have them circ'ed.  I mean, if you can do it when they're two days old, why not 2 years or 12 years old?  So, even if you did somehow regret it...  The only thing I can see truly regretting would be the thing that can't be fixed later.


QueenOfTheMeadow 06-30-2012 02:10 AM

You might want to check out this thread as well.  Intact and no problems.  I've got three boys, ages 13, 11, and 8.  They are all intact and we haven't had issues with any of them, besides telling their doctor that no, we aren't retracting, and we are not going to retract. 

 

And I'll second, or third, or fourth the idea that people come here if they are facing a problem to ask questions, because there aren't many other places that you can get great information about these issues.  So, yes, you do see a lot of questions here regarding that.  Just like if you look in the breastfeeding forums, you'll often see a lot of questions regarding breastfeeding issues. 


QueenOfTheMeadow 06-30-2012 02:14 AM

Oops!  Wanted to add, that my dh does regret having been circumcised.  He hasn't had any problems, per se.  But after reading all the things we were given when I was pregnant, and we made the decided not to circ, it made him wonder what it would be like to have his foreskin.  He isn't angry or anything, but he does feel a little cheated.


MCatLvrMom2A&X 06-30-2012 05:35 AM

If you go to boards where many circ you will run across many many threads about the complications of circ.

This board is one of the very few on the few on the net that people can go to for accurate information on the proper way to take care of the intact penis and also some things that might happen that in other countries they know is normal while here in the USA they rush to say circ. Many complications of intact have nothing to do with the intact penis but the fact that Dr's have not been taught about it only how to cut it off.

In other countries where intact is the norm they dont see these "problems" because they know that it isnt a problem but part of growing up intact.

a-guy 07-01-2012 08:17 PM

 

"You should instead be asking intact men if they wish they were circumcised. My bet is you'd get a lot of laughs from that group."

 

As a 50 something, long married man who was not circumcised I must say I am very grateful that I was not. When I was born virtually all boys were circumcised - I applaud my parent’s courage to go against that. Having talked to other men, a few intact and may cut, I am convinced that there are sexual benefits to being left whole. A recent study in Denmark found the same thing – both men and partners of those who were circumcised were less happy with their sex lives.


Storm Bride 07-02-2012 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyblackdot View Post

 I guess my concern is that i came to this thread looking for information and it seems like every other post is something about an infected penis, or UTI, or Dr saying a child needs a surgery. So to me its all good to say that circ isn't necessary, but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?

 

UTIs happen with circ'd penises, too. They're not all that common with boys, in either case.

 

Many of the threads about "infected penises" turn out to be nothing of the sort, if you read the whole thread. It's frequently separation. Sometimes, it's honestly just diaper rash, but because it's at the tip of the foreskin, and American culture (particularly medical culture) is afraid of foreskins, people tend to overreact.

When the doctors say the child needs a sugery (ie. a circumcision, or sometimes a slit), they're very frequently proven to be wrong. However, even if they were right, why would you circumcise a newborn infant, because there's a chance they might need that same procedure later in life? Subjecting a newborn to surgery, because you're concerned that he might need surgery later if you don't do it now, is completely illogical. Our kids might need all kinds of surgeries (when I was a kid, I "needed" my tonsils out, for example). That doesn't mean we go ahead and perform them on our newborns.

Circ is cosmetic surgery, not a medically indicated procedure.

 

FWIW...my brother is 49, and intact. He's never had a problem. My son is 19, and intact. He's never had a problem. My nephews are 12 (almost 13), 11, 10 and 9 - all intact, and none of them has ever had a problem. My younger son is almost 7, and has never had a problem. I'm not just saying that none of them have ever had a major problem - none of them have ever had a problem at all - no separation issues, no infections - nothing. A few dabs of diaper rash ointment, as required, has been the extent of what they've required. That means that every single circ'd boy, even if they had no immediate complications, required more care than any of my intact family members. (The circ'd boys all had open wounds in diapers that needed to be cared for.)

 

As others have said, you get thost posts here, because this is one of the few forums where people can post when they have concerns. If you amalgamated every post asking questions about the care of circ penises on one forum, it would look much worse, I suspect. (I've certainly never heard of an intact boy being rushed to ER for bleeding.)


Frankly Speaking 07-02-2012 12:34 PM

“Has anyone NOT circumcised their child, and then later regretted it?”

 

I’ve been involved in this debate more than a dozen years, have corresponded with thousands of mothers and have never found one that regretted not circumcising.

 

“BUT i have talked to many men about the idea, and they all say that I SHOULD do it."

 

This is the normal and expected response from a circumcised man.  Men are in a constant competition to access the most desirable women and they have to believe they have the best organ possible.  To admit (even to themselves) otherwise would be extremely damaging to their ego.

 

“One of them elected to be circumcised as an adult, and one had a horror story about a "friend" that had to go through a horrible surgery as a teen.”

 

I’ve also heard these stories.  They appear to be false for the most part.  About 10 years ago, I decided to investigate these stories.  I would ask for specifics such as the man’s name.  No one could even give me a name, not one!   I would be told “He doesn’t want to talk about it” or “He doesn’t live here any more.” (I was not asking for addresses) or “I don’t remember his name.”  I was obviously being stonewalled.

 

I did eventually find two men.  One was my uncle.  His exact words were “It’s the worst mistake I ever made in my life.”  The other was the husband of my girl friend’s girl friend.  He didn’t want to talk about it but his wife talked to my girl friend who told me what she was told.  “Janice” was not happy.  They had only been married a few years and their sex life had gone down the drain after the circumcision.  She was actively looking for a lover on the side and apparently thought I might be interested. (I wasn’t)

 

“So now I'm worried that my choice for my child will lead to him just having to have a more painful procedure later down the line.”

 

This is an old myth and an absolute lie.  Adults undergoing circumcision are usually done under full anesthesia and are given a full range of aftercare medications.  They typically report some inconvenience but absolutely no pain.

 

However, you also must understand what are the chances of a later necessary circumcision.  Those who push circumcision want to leave you with the impression that it will be necessary at some point.  I’ll give you this bit of evidence:  In Sweden where infant circumcision is virtually never done with the exception of religious circumcisions, only 1 man in 17,000 goes to his grave without his foreskin.

 

“I feel like i wouldn't want my father making any decisions about my genitals, and therefore, i should really rely on the overwhelming opinion of other men including my DH.”

 

That’s some sound logic.  May I use it?

 

There are two groups of men, (1.) those who are circumcised and therefore must defend it and (2.) those who are not and have nothing to defend.  Which is more logical to accept?

 

“But then i wonder if they even know what in the heck they are talking about.......”

 

Those men who are circumcised have to defend their status for protection of their egos.  A man who has been circumcised as an infant no longer has the parts or the nerves to provide the sensations and from experience, I can tell you, they have no idea of what they are missing, never have had an idea or never will have an idea.

 

“but then again if they are missing anything then whats the big deal right?”

 

No, not right.  Use your imagination for a moment.  What if you were born blind.  You wouldn’t miss the wonders you have seen because you were born that way.   Would that make it acceptable for your parents to intentionally blind you?

 

“But i don't want parts of my babies body just cut off for no real reason.”

 

It’s not just “parts,” it’s genital parts.  Parts whose purpose is to give pleasure, extreme pleasure.  What if the procedure does not go well?  A young man (17 years old) once wrote me privately.  Almost all of his glans (the head of the penis) was cut off during his circumcision.  At 17 years old,  he still had the normal sex drive of a 17 year old boy (if you can call the sex drive of a 17 year old boy “normal”)  He had tried to have a girl friend but most quickly left when they saw his penis.  However, there was one who apparently both sympathetic and giving and gave him the chance.  He was unable to do it.  He was writing me because he had found my writings here on Mothering and thought I might have information that could help him.  In reality, there was nothing that could put back what he had lost.

 

Over the years, I have wondered what his Mother had told him and what he had told his Mother.  Think he might have been very angry with his mother for approving what was done to him?  He certainly had a right to be angry.  Think his mother had reconsidered having him circumcised?  Probably but there was nothing she could do either except apologize.  Mostly, I wonder if she had ever thought about him not being able to give her grandchildren and what she thought about that.  Grandchildren are blessings that everyone should at least experience.

 

“*please know that I am 100% not here to debate it at all, I am here to seek experience and advice from mothers that have been through making the tough decision, i like every parent, would like to make the best decision for my child*”

 

Once you get the facts, it will not be a tough decision and the older your child becomes, the more confident you will become that you’ve made the right decision.  In the 12 years I’ve been posting information for mothers, I have never “known” a mother that regretted not circumcising her son.  I don’t expect you to be any different.

 

.


Monkeygrrl 07-02-2012 01:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyblackdot View Post

 Has anyone NOT circumcised their child, and then later regretted it?

 

Absolutely not. My boys are 9 and 6, intact, and have never had any issues.

 

Because I researched it to death (enough that I wrote a paper on it for a class), I knew how to care for the intact penis, and I was hyper-vigilant in the doctor's office when it came to well-baby visits and physicals.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

Well, I never made the "tough" decision to leave my sons intact, because there was absolutely no possibility that I'd allow them to be cut. 

 

This. It wasn't a tough decision at all, really. When I found out I was pregnant with my first son, I started doing research. Once it became clear to me the reasons why circumcision got started, I knew that wasn't happening to my child. Ever. No matter what the lead male role in their life said. (My first born didn't have a lead male role until he was 10mo, so it wasn't even an issue.) With my second son, I informed my husband that I would move out, live in my car, and take his son with me if he even suggested we have him circ'd. I was serious, he knew it, and as I educated him on the reasons for my stand, he completely agreed with me. My husband is circumcised. And as I educated him on the subject, he became increasingly angry that this was done to him, and that this is the reason for the issues he has today. There is not much he can do about it, and although he does have the option to restore his foreskin and has the device to do so, there is no guarantee that restoring will make the issues go away. 

 

My story is here.

 

I would fight tooth and nail, and consider all other options, before ever agreeing to letting my child go under the knife for a circumcision. I am thankful every day my boys do not have issues, because I know that it has to be an agonizing decision for those who are so against circumcision and have no choice for their own child.


nd_deadhead 07-03-2012 06:53 AM

I agree with everything written so far. The idea of performing surgery on an infant on the very slight chance that he might need that operation as an adult is pretty silly, when you think about it. If the idea is to avoid surgery, why not avoid it completely? I didn't sign my babies up for appendectomies, even though several people in my immediate family have needed one.

 

Here's how much I have NOT regretted leaving my twin boys intact, 18 years ago:

 

- When they were babies, and I saw how well their foreskins protected their glans from explosive poops.

 

- when I found a circumcision debate board a couple of years later, researched the heck out of it (loooking for a reason TO do it), and learned that the potential medical benefits were minimal, at best. I also learned about the functions of the foreskin, and how important it is.

 

- When baby Dustin Evans died. He had surgery to repair a botched circumcision, and died on the operating table. It had never occured to me that a baby could DIE from something as simple as circumcision! Since then Ilve read of many more deaths, and each one breaks my heart.

 

- When DH and I were visiting friends in the hospital when their newborn was taken away for his circumcision. We left a few minutes later, and heard his screams as we walked by the nursery (we peeked through the slats in the blinds - it was him).

 

- When our boys were 8, they heard the word circumcision (in a church sermon, of all places), and asked what it meant. When we told them it meant to cut off the foreskin, they both said (with horro on their faces) "Why would anyone want to do THAT?!" They were appalled when we told them that most men don't ask for it themselves, but their parents do it to them when they are babies. Upon leanring that their Dad is circumcised, one of them said "Poor Dad! He's missing the best part!"

 

- As my sons have gotten older, and we've talked about it, they have become even more staunchly anti-circumcision than I am. One of my sons has told me that he would not want to date a girl who agrees with infant circumcision or spanking.

 

Not only do I have no regrets about leaving our babies as they were made, that decision has been validated time and time again.


Cyllya 07-03-2012 09:26 AM

First, you need to remember that the state of lacking a foreskin is itself a medical problem, even if there were no complications, regardless of how pleasant or unpleasant the procedure itself was. Circumcising to prevent medical problems means you're inflicting a medical problem to prevent medical problems. Plus most of the medical problems you're trying to prevent are less permanent. If you need to know more about why the lack of a foreskin is a bad thing, google "sex as nature intended it" for a great explanation (it has sexually explicit images, so I don't think I'm allowed to post it here directly).

 

Also, the previous two or three generations had so few intact men that knowledge of the correct way to care for an intact penis. Lots of people think you need to force the foreskin back and clean under it vigorously with soap, but that's like forcing back your fingernails or eyelids and soaping under them. That practice is actually really likely to cause infections and other health problems (in addition to being painful). So when you hear "my friend's friend's former roommate's sister-in-law's brother had a horrible penis-related health problem!!!" you don't know how he was cared for as a child, but if he grew up in America, chances are his penis was harmed by his parents, doctors, and caregivers. If you spend twenty seconds educating yourself on proper penis care, all of those risks become non-applicable to your own child.

 

Thirdly, even if you could see into the future and know he's going to have a medical need to be circumcised someday, that's still no reason to do it when he's a baby. If circumcision is going to happen, the later the better. Here are some reasons:

 

1. When male babies are born, their foreskin is fused to glans of the penis, and this becomes fully retractable over time (at an average age of 10 years).  Forceful retraction is by itself painful and unhealthy, but circumcising an individual whose foreskin is not yet naturally retractable requires forceful retraction. The older the patient is, the more likely he is to be naturally retractable, therefore avoiding this problem.

 

2. Wearing a diaper after being recently circumcised means you have an open wound sitting in a pool of urine and feces. Most teens and adults don't wear diapers, so they can avoid this problem.

 

3. A doctor who is circumcising a baby has no way of knowing how big that baby's penis is going to be, and there isn't a clear line between foreskin and not-foreskin, so there is no way to know how much is "safe" to cut off. Many men who were circ'd as babies have overly tight skin on their penis that make it painful to get an erection. Sometimes the penis stretches down skin from above the penis, causing it to be abnormally hairy. Sometimes the skin is tighter on one side, forcing the penis to curve. Recently some doctors have started doing "loose" circ's on babies to avoid these problems, but that comes with its own problems, such as what's left of the retracted foreskin trying to re-adhere to the glans. Once a patient is fully grown, they won't have this problem.

 

4. For safety reasons, there's a limit to how much anesthesia can be used on a baby, plus some doctors don't care if babies are in pain and therefore won't use anesthesia or won't wait for it to kick in, especially if the parents aren't present. If a baby passes out from pain or goes into shock, the nurses will tell the parents he slept through the procedure and was only crying because it's cold in the room. Adults, teens, and older children can get better anesthesia during the procedure and more respect from the doctor. Further, they have access to better pain relief during the recovery period. Even if the child is too young to be trusted with his own pain meds, at least he can tell his parents when he's in pain, take meds at their discretion, and describe what is or isn't helpful.

 

The reason people think it's better to circ babies is because they don't believe babies feel pain (hah!) or they don't care that babies feel pain. In the latter case, they figure it's okay because adults don't remember anything that happened to them as newborns, but by that logic, it's okay to violently abuse anyone under the age of two. In no other situation is it considered okay to inflict pain on someone just because they don't remember it. Even when you don't have a mental movie of an event, you still keep the knowledge, opinions, and feelings you gained from that event. Two years from now, you're probably not going to remember what you had for lunch tomorrow, but you still want it to be tasty, don't you?

 

The only real advantage to being circ'd younger is that the patient needs to avoid sex for a couple of weeks after the procedure. But when the alternative is a little baby recovering from a surgery with no pain relief, excuse me if I don't feel much pity for the poor grown-up who has to abstain from sex for a few weeks.

 

Also, surgeries to repair botched circs are more common

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyblackdot View Post

 I guess my concern is that i came to this thread looking for information and it seems like every other post is something about an infected penis, or UTI, or Dr saying a child needs a surgery. So to me its all good to say that circ isn't necessary, but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?

People post their concerns here because they know people aren't going to tell them to circ their kid for no good reason. Likewise, looking at the Gentle Discipline board may tempt you to conclude that GD makes kids into unruly violent selfish little monsters and therefore you need to beat your own kids with PCV pipes to save them from this horrible fate. Or looking at the breastfeeding sections and concluding that you need to give your infant daughter a masectomy. winky.gif

 

Go read those topics and not just the title, and you'll find that people usually discover that their concern is not due to a foreskin-related health problem. In many cases, it's not a health problem at all. In other cases, it's a health problem not related to foreskins such as UTI or diaper rash. Then go read a forum full of parents who circumcised their kid.


shadowdancer77 07-03-2012 11:23 AM

I also chose to leave my son and his penis in tact :)

 

He is 7 months old now.  No problems whatsoever. 

 

My husband has reported that he wondered if he would be able to bond with him when he's older because they look different.  I'm sad that they "look different" but honestly, I more sad that my husband had no choice.  My son does.

 

That's all I got.  Good luck.


Monkeygrrl 07-03-2012 11:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowdancer77 View Post

My husband has reported that he wondered if he would be able to bond with him when he's older because they look different.  

 

That is an odd statement. Did your husband bond with his father over the size/shape/look of their penii? 

 

My husband is circ'ed, and he circ'ed his first son (from a previous marriage). That child is now 16, and not once in the last 8yrs I have known my husband has he and his first son ever bonded because their penii are both circ'ed.

 

My two birth boys are intact, and not once has their penii ever been a topic of convo when it comes to bonding with their father. Guns, camping, video games, chess, making silly faces, farting/burping, being present at swim meets and soccer games, helping out with some homeschooling thing, making explosions using coke and mentos --- these are some of the things that the boys bonded with Dad over. Never the size/shape/look of their penii. 

 

~~~~~~~~~~

 

And now I see that the above post was your first one, and maybe I shouldn't have bothered to respond.


LiLStar 07-03-2012 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyblackdot View Post

 

 I feel like i wouldn't want my father making any decisions about my genitals, and therefore, i should really rely on the overwhelming opinion of other men including my DH.

 

 

I didn't make the "decision" to leave my sons intact any more than I made the decision to not cut off their feet. Its not a decision. Its the way their bodies are born, and they are perfectly healthy and normal. No decision to be made. 


Frankly Speaking 07-03-2012 12:46 PM

Cyllya wrote:  "chances are his penis was harmed by his parents, doctors, and caregivers. If you spend twenty seconds educating yourself on proper penis care, all of those risks become non-applicable to your own child."

 

A woman posted on another board that her doctor had told her to  retract the foreskin and swab it and the glans with rubbing alcohol.  She said she finally stopped because of the screams of her child.  I can imagine!  The inner foreskin and glans is mucosal skin like the insides of the eyelids.  Imagine putting rubbing alcohol in your eyes!  She said that was the reason she was advocating for circumcision.  She would not accept that the doctor had told her wrong.

 

 

"Many men who were circ'd as babies have overly tight skin on their penis that make it painful to get an erection."

 

Yes, this is very common.  Most don't have painful erections but also don't realize another problem.  This foreshortened skin sleeve doesn't allow them to have full erections.  The entire penis is more than 50% inside the body.  A tight circumcision can keep even more inside the body thus the man never reaches his full erectile potential.  Men who restore their foreskins typically report gaining substantially in erectile length.  Most report 1/2" to 1" but some report more than 1 3/4".  Of course the men love this and I suspect their lovers value it.

 

"Sometimes the penis stretches down skin from above the penis, causing it to be abnormally hairy."

 

Yes, I've seen some awful pictures of this.  Most circumcised men have some hair on the shaft.  I remember one that had it all the way to almost the circumcision scar.  The unreaized problem is that that hair abrades the vaginal opening causing sex to be irritating or painful to his lover.  The intact man does not have this problem because the skin sleeve is not immobile.  It can slide up and down the entire length of the shaft quite easily.  This probably accounts for many women singing the praises of the intact penis.

 

"plus some doctors don't care if babies are in pain and therefore won't use anesthesia or won't wait for it to kick in, especially if the parents aren't present"

 

This is among the most disturbing things about infant circumcision.  Doctors pose themselves as being loving and caring professionals.  The latest survey shows that only 6% of newborns recieve pain management for the procedure.  It is rare for them to allow parents to be present for the procedure.  Wonder why?  Maybe it's to keep the parents from seeing the inhumanity?  So the parents won't tell other parents and ruin the carefully crafted personna of the caring professional?

 

"or won't wait for it to kick in"

Yes, doctors highly value their time.  It is recommended that the analgesic be allowed 20 minutes to take effect yet many will immediately start after the injection and be done well before 20 minutes have passed. 

 

"The reason people think it's better to circ babies is because they don't believe babies feel pain (hah!)"

 

You only have to watch one circumcision video to know babies feel pain.  It was doctors who started this myth and they knew it was not true.  As far back as 1980, research showed that infants feel pain more intensely than adults.  A 3 year old will fall but will not break skin, bruise or show other symptoms of injury but will cry intensely in pain.  That is evidence they are highly susceptible to pain.

 

"but by that logic, it's okay to violently abuse anyone under the age of two. In no other situation is it considered okay to inflict pain on someone just because they don't remember it"

 

In infants traumatic experiences permanently imprint that experience on the brain.  This is the reason circumcised infants show more response to childhood injections like vaccinations.  They actually perceive more pain and that perception interprets into real pain.

 

Parents who break fingers and arms, burn babies hands on hot stoves and do other things to injure their children are typically sent to prison.  Judges and juries pay no attention to memories of pain but convict a parent or doctor for the intentional pain of circumcision?  Not likely to happen.  That is because most of them are guilty of doing the same thing.

 

"Also, surgeries to repair botched circs are more common"

 

Yes, it amazed me a couple of years ago when someone directed me to a medical practice whose specialty was correcting botched circumcisions.  This made up more than 80% of the practice!

 

"Tiny Black Dot wrote:  "but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?"

 

That is probably a lot my fault.  I found Mothering as fair and supportive.  I actually sent mothers here to get answers.  I didn't answer them in the forum where they were originally asking for information.  I valued Mothering and wanted to build readership here so I brought "customers."  The mother would come and get essentially the same information from multiple members here.  In just a short time, the membership here virtually exploded and MDC became the "go to" place for answers.  It also brought problems with leaving boys intact.  HOWEVER, those mothers all got helpful information and for several years, none of those boys were circumcised even though a doctor had prescribed it.  Not a single one!

 

"Then go read a forum full of parents who circumcised their kid."

 

Yes, there are internet forums that support circumcision.  It is amazing the number of problems cropping up.  Often there are no solutions to the problem or the problem is additional surgery.  It seems the mothers who have circumcised are adamant that circumcision was only a related action, not the instigating action and even after their child has suffered, are willing to let him suffer agaiin.  I particularly remember one mother who had her son circumcised, then circumcised again and yet again.  A total of 3 circumcisions for one child!  Never the less, she still adamantly supported circumcision and was ever trying to convince other mothers to circumcise their sons.  She repeatedly emphasized how it would prevent a later circumcision.  HAH! 


Frankly Speaking 07-03-2012 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubidoux View Post

Also, I don't think there's any reason (if anyone knows otherwise correct me) that you can't drag them down to the doctor at any age and have them circ'ed.  I mean, if you can do it when they're two days old, why not 2 years or 12 years old?  So, even if you did somehow regret it...  The only thing I can see truly regretting would be the thing that can't be fixed later.

 

As the parent or legal guardian, you can force them to be circumcised up to 17 years and 364 days.  Even if they are fighting like a tiger.  The question is "would you do that?"  Probably not but what if the child was 14 years old and didn't want it? Or 8 years old? Or 5 years old?  Isn't part of the reason boys are circumcised in infancy is because they can't voice their objections?  I suspect so.

That begs the question "How will you possibly know what your son will want as an adult?"  What if he confronts you when he learns what you have done to him?  Will you be able to give him well researched legitimate answers?  Will he accept those answers?

 

But there is another scenario . . . The circumcision rate in The US has been falling the last ten years as parents learn.  In 2000, the circumcision rate was about 66%.  In 2009, the infant circumcision rate was 32.5% and expected to continue to fall  Boys born after 2007 or 2008 will be in the minority if they are circumcised.  This is sure to generate difficult questions for parents who do circumcise. 

 

These boys will have the same information available to them that you have available to you.  Will they believe the information from legitimate medical sources?  Probably so.  What is their determination likely to be?  There is little (virtually none) information from legitimate sources that support infant circumcision and this is what they will be faced with.  How will you handle that if you choose circumcision for your son?

 

>


HealthyHappyMom 07-04-2012 11:46 AM

My son is uncircumcised.  My husband and I knew that it would have been traumatic to his physical body and emotions.  We use a natural and non-toxic solution to cleanse him to prevent any infections.


To-Fu 07-04-2012 12:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nd_deadhead View Post

I agree with everything written so far. The idea of performing surgery on an infant on the very slight chance that he might need that operation as an adult is pretty silly, when you think about it. If the idea is to avoid surgery, why not avoid it completely? I didn't sign my babies up for appendectomies, even though several people in my immediate family have needed one.

 

YES.  This is what I was going to say.  Why do a painful, unnecessary, cosmetic surgery on a helpless unconsenting baby on the miniscule chance that there might be problems later?  With what other body part do we do this?  Absolutely none.  That's because it's irrational, IMO.

 

It's his body, and it's his choice.  That's always where I return when these debates come up.  The rest of it is good to know, but that's the most important thing.

 

That said, OP, thanks for feeling comfortable enough to come here and ask.  I'm glad you posted. thanks.gif


To-Fu 07-04-2012 12:03 PM

P.S. You might want to read this thread:  http://www.mothering.com/community/t/112410/if-you-regret-circumcising-your-son-s-please-post-here


mama24-7 07-04-2012 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HealthyHappyMom View Post

My son is uncircumcised.  My husband and I knew that it would have been traumatic to his physical body and emotions.  We use a natural and non-toxic solution to cleanse him to prevent any infections.

Would you please share what you use?  I'm genuinely curious.

 

And, welcome to MDC!  Welcome.gif

 

Sus


Sharlla 07-04-2012 04:01 PM

i also think that most later in life circs were probably unnecessary.  one time in his mid 20's dh's foreskin got stuck behind his head. of course the dr told him he needed to be circed, thankfully DH told him where to shove it
 


beru 07-05-2012 01:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HealthyHappyMom View Post

My son is uncircumcised.  My husband and I knew that it would have been traumatic to his physical body and emotions.  We use a natural and non-toxic solution to cleanse him to prevent any infections.

 

Me too. Ours is called water. :)


philomom 07-05-2012 01:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HealthyHappyMom View Post

My son is uncircumcised.  My husband and I knew that it would have been traumatic to his physical body and emotions.  We use a natural and non-toxic solution to cleanse him to prevent any infections.

Bath water. And do not ever retract!

herbsmd 07-05-2012 01:38 PM

No, but I certainly regret having had them circumcised!  I think that most of the previous posters have made excellent points.  That is the way their bodies were born, and that is the way they should remain.  We did it--my husband had an opinion on the issue with our first born and I had not done much research.  It bothered me initially, but I just assumed that it was the way things were done.  In the end, we circumcised him.  I later read more and wished I had not been so willing to go against my own instincts.

The worst was having a second son and having to circumcise him to be like his brother--I know I could have made them different, but it meant more to me to have them the same.  Doing it the second time was just awful.  They're 9 and almost 11 now and so the decision is long past.  Still, there will always be an ache in my heart.  I would say that, if you are in doubt, just don't do it.  You could always have it done later.  

 

Maggie



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