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#31 of 49 Old 05-13-2004, 01:16 PM
 
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OMG! I'd heard of this happening.... I knew it was possible, but I'd never heard a name and had a life attached to it....
I just can't imagine...

~diana

~diana google me: hahamommy. Unschooling Supermama to Hayden :Super Cool Girlfriend to Scotty . Former wife to Mitch & former mama to Hannahbear
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#32 of 49 Old 05-13-2004, 06:12 PM
 
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Diana, there are actually thousands of real names attached to real men/women. Some doctors are still advocating this procedure and vehemently defending it. Most will never hear of David's death. The same is true of young parents of circumcision accident victims and intersexed babies. The time to reach these young people is so short! How long do you realistically have to reach a teenage mother? Days? Weeks? At best, a couple of months? The best way to reach them is to teach your children respect for their children's genitals and they will teach their friends.






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#33 of 49 Old 05-13-2004, 06:32 PM
 
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Hannah, 7.5, woke up as I was crying for all the Davids in this world... I've struggled long and hard (with great advice from here ) about talking to her about physical integrity.
She noticed, a couple of years ago, the difference between Hayden's penis and the circ'd penii of her cousins. I was as diplomatic as I could be (my tongue was bloody from biting it so hard!!) explaining the *choices* made by the other parents to remove that part of their sons' bodies :Puke
We had a conversation about ear piercing a couple of weeks ago, she asked why her ears weren't pierced and we talked about them being her ears and how permanently altering them was NOT my choice, but hers... just the same as Hayden's penis is his and not mine to cut up.
Perfect segue for this morning... I told her the truth, a mother let the doctor cut her son's penis, he was using a cutting/burning tool and it burned off the baby's penis... the doctor used surgery to turn the baby boy into a girl, he was raised that way but discovered the truth and decided to live as a man... it was too much of a struggle for him and he killed himself (luckily we've covered the suicide discussion). She was too, not only for David, but for "his mommy too, who will have to live with her mistakes and lies. I hope he forgives her now that he's in heaven"
Which segued into a conversation about forgiveness and how *I* will be forgiven as often as I need to be... I my kid!!

~diana

~diana google me: hahamommy. Unschooling Supermama to Hayden :Super Cool Girlfriend to Scotty . Former wife to Mitch & former mama to Hannahbear
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#34 of 49 Old 05-13-2004, 07:41 PM
 
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I remember watching a documentary on this family in psych class several years ago - it was tragic then and even more so now that I know how it ended for this poor man.

Then, the other night, I came across a show about intersexed children. There was an adoptive mother who's son was born with ambiguous genitals and she fought for nearly a month with the hospital before she was able to bring him home intact (the doctors did remove his one testicle, claiming it was cancerous - and they did this during the biopsy surgery!!! Those must have been the fastest test results in history!!). The doctors wanted to make him a "girl".
Seeing the child, who was my son's age, running around playing with his brothers - there was no doubt he was a boy! The love and determination of this mother was wonderful to see, but the ignorance of the doctors was infuriating!! This wasn't in the sixties - this was just a few years ago!


BTW -
Quote:
Originally Posted by noodle4u
On a side note, if you cant make a straight person gay, then you sure cant make a gay person straight.
Right on!!!!
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#35 of 49 Old 05-13-2004, 07:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woobysma
...
Then, the other night, I came across a show about intersexed children. There was an adoptive mother who's son was born with ambiguous genitals and she fought for nearly a month with the hospital before she was able to bring him home intact (the doctors did remove his one testicle, claiming it was cancerous - and they did this during the biopsy surgery!!! Those must have been the fastest test results in history!!). The doctors wanted to make him a "girl". ...
I saw that show. They kept the baby in the hospital for 11 days before letting the adoptive mother even see him. They were refusing to let her take him home until he'd been "fixed". Disgusting. The adoptive parents seemed like such good people and despite all their efforts they could not protect their son from the doctor who castrated him.
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#36 of 49 Old 05-13-2004, 08:21 PM
 
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Shannon:

There is a little more to this story. I hope you don't mind if I tell it. If you do, I apologize.

The child in question was born with a small penis and a single testicle. Other than that, he was normal. It was not known whether his penis would be large enough as an adult to penetrate his sexual partner. A single testicle instead of two does not mean that he could not sire children. Indeed, men who have only one testicle through birth defect or accident or disease generally have few fertility problems and lead successful sexual lives.

The pediatrician or family practitioner ( I don't remember which) had strongly lobbied the parents to have the boy changed from a boy to a girl and the parents had consistently resisted. The doctor told the parents that boys with only one testicle had a higher chance of testicular cancer and it was the prudent thing to do to have a biopsy performed. At first, the parents resisted but eventually gave in with the clear understanding that only a biopsy would be done and nothing else.

The boy was taken into surgery and a while later the doctor came out and told the parents that the test had come out positive and he had to remove his testicle. The mother asked to see the test report and the doctor would not let her see it. She finally put up such a scene that she got the report and it said there was no indication of cancer. None!

This doctor was so intent on a sex change operation for this boy that he castrated him thinking that at that point, there was no other alternative and the parents would be forced to consent. They did not. They were "considering" legal action against the doctor. I suspect they did not have the money to mount a lawsuit and were really trying to figure out a way to get it. I wish I knew how to contact them. David Llewellyn and I would make sure that money was not a consideration in them getting justice for their son and against that unethical ba*tard.




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#37 of 49 Old 05-13-2004, 08:44 PM
 
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This is just so sad. I feel so much pain for this man. I don't have words to really express how I feel about this. That's why I haven't posted about it, I just don't now what to say, it is so tragic and horrific what this man and so many others have been put thru.
Frank, that is yet another heartbreaking story. It makes me weep and it makes me want yell like a mad woman, it is so f'ing unfair.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#38 of 49 Old 05-13-2004, 08:45 PM
 
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Thank you, Frank - I don't mind at all.

I did realize the significance of the doctor removing the boy's testicle. Even if he couldn't conceive naturally with a small penis, it's very possible he could have conceived with medical help. That doctor took away any chance for that boy to ever be a biological father.

I, too, hope that the parents get the financial help they need to mount a lawsuit. (I will definitely contribute if you're able to find contact info)

I also hope that mainstream media (I can't even remember what channel this was) will spend more time drawing attention to these kinds of situations. If it wasn't swept under the rug, maybe we could get some real change going in the way society relates to an individual's sexuality.
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#39 of 49 Old 05-15-2004, 02:00 PM
 
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This whole thread gives me the shivers. I've read the book "as nature made him" as a requirement for a pysch class. So much pain for one family to bare... all because of something considered a "routine" procedure. Disgusting.

I am embarrassed to say that this happened in my home country Canada. FWIW, we now live in Switzerland where you cannot get a medical circumcision for cosmetic reasons. I guess you could have a bris done, but it in forbidden in hospitals except for medically indicated ones. I like it that way.

Olivia
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#40 of 49 Old 05-19-2004, 05:35 PM
 
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Whats even more sad that it all happened in my city - at the same hospital that 2 of my sons were born in. (and regrettfully, one was circ'd)
You would think that it would be all over the news, but its not. Just a little blurb in the back of the paper.....
peace to you david..
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#41 of 49 Old 05-19-2004, 05:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking
Shannon:

There is a little more to this story. I hope you don't mind if I tell it. If you do, I apologize.

The child in question was born with a small penis and a single testicle. Other than that, he was normal. It was not known whether his penis would be large enough as an adult to penetrate his sexual partner. A single testicle instead of two does not mean that he could not sire children. Indeed, men who have only one testicle through birth defect or accident or disease generally have few fertility problems and lead successful sexual lives.

The pediatrician or family practitioner ( I don't remember which) had strongly lobbied the parents to have the boy changed from a boy to a girl and the parents had consistently resisted. The doctor told the parents that boys with only one testicle had a higher chance of testicular cancer and it was the prudent thing to do to have a biopsy performed. At first, the parents resisted but eventually gave in with the clear understanding that only a biopsy would be done and nothing else.

The boy was taken into surgery and a while later the doctor came out and told the parents that the test had come out positive and he had to remove his testicle. The mother asked to see the test report and the doctor would not let her see it. She finally put up such a scene that she got the report and it said there was no indication of cancer. None!

This doctor was so intent on a sex change operation for this boy that he castrated him thinking that at that point, there was no other alternative and the parents would be forced to consent. They did not. They were "considering" legal action against the doctor. I suspect they did not have the money to mount a lawsuit and were really trying to figure out a way to get it. I wish I knew how to contact them. David Llewellyn and I would make sure that money was not a consideration in them getting justice for their son and against that unethical ba*tard.




Frank
What show was this on? Someone needs to get ahold of the producer and send a letter to him to give to the family. If the family's name was withheld this would be a good way to contact them to encourage a lawsuit. I'm sure the station recieved mail from the show. They would be bound to give mail to the family if it was entitled for them.

I'm in to donate some cash.

What a bastard that dr is! How the h*ll does he sleep at night?
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#42 of 49 Old 05-19-2004, 06:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momto3boys
What show was this on? Someone needs to get ahold of the producer and send a letter to him to give to the family. If the family's name was withheld this would be a good way to contact them to encourage a lawsuit. I'm sure the station recieved mail from the show. They would be bound to give mail to the family if it was entitled for them.

I'm in to donate some cash.

What a bastard that dr is! How the h*ll does he sleep at night?

It is a show on the Discovery Channel, I believe the title is "Is it a boy or a girl?"
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#43 of 49 Old 05-19-2004, 11:55 PM
 
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That show has aired several times each on The Discovery Channel, The Discovery Health Channel, The Learning Channel and The History Channel. I have gone to their websites and found they have no e-mail or snail mail address and no phone number listed. It's pretty obvious they want no feedback from their audiences.




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#44 of 49 Old 05-20-2004, 12:10 AM
 
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#45 of 49 Old 05-27-2004, 07:33 PM
 
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[QUOTE=woobysma]Thank you, Frank - I don't mind at all.

I did realize the significance of the doctor removing the boy's testicle. Even if he couldn't conceive naturally with a small penis, it's very possible he could have conceived with medical help. That doctor took away any chance for that boy to ever be a biological father.

I, too, hope that the parents get the financial help they need to mount a lawsuit. (I will definitely contribute if you're able to find contact info)




Its my understanding when it comes to lawsuits the plaintiffs dont pay anything unless the case is won or settled.If the case has no merit the lawyer rejects it and there is still no money paid.When I sued for my injuries I paid no fees or costs until the insurance co paid out.The insurance co paid my attorney and the attorneys office wrote me a check for the balance.Generally lawyers will take 33% of the award plus expenses.I hope the person spoken of here understands that.If her case is strong the lawyer will jump on it and if she still has the medical record to back it up the culprits will have no choice but to give up their practice when there malpractice premium goes through thr roof.
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#46 of 49 Old 05-28-2004, 01:15 AM
 
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Thomas, you are mostly right. The way it is supposed to work is the attorney works with the hope that he will win your case and recieve payment for his work and the plaintiff pays the costs for the filing fee, investigations, expert witnesses, etc. What apparently happened with you is that your attorney was so confident in your case that he essentially loaned you the money for the associated costs with those costs coming from the settlement or the award from the court. In most cases, the attorney will not be so sure of the outcome and will not do this. It may be disguised as him not accepting your case if he doesn't think you have the where with all to finance the case.

There is also the situation that the plaintiff has the money to finance the case and the attorney takes it on an hourly fee. The plaintiff still pays the associated costs but doesn't share the award or settlement with the attorney.



Frank
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#47 of 49 Old 06-03-2004, 09:35 PM
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From nocirc:

"David managed to triumph by reclaiming his gender and, by telling his story, protecting others from similar tragedy. He was an inspiration to us all. He long will be remembered as an example of the risk of terrible mutilation caused by circumcision."

www.nocirc.org

--under press releases

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#48 of 49 Old 06-05-2004, 01:59 AM
 
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#49 of 49 Old 09-19-2004, 05:59 PM
 
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This is awful!!!!!

I just learned of David Reimer's death in today's paper NY Times, 9/19/04: When a Gender Isn't a Given

I started a thread on the Gender article.

10 - boy
5.5 - girl
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