Can someone please point me in the right direction. I'm looking for a study that showed that babies that underwent circumcision did indeed feel the pain, and that their levels of...something... were elevated for quite some time afterwards.
I'm in an argument with someone who insists that babies don't feel pain during circumcision. And I need to back up my words with a scientific study.
I would say this: cut off your "female super-sensitive spot" as an adult and rate the pain on a scale of 1-10... and now you can speak for infants.
As for a scientific study... its very hard to communicate with infants. I'm sure if they could speak they would be saying "WHY? THIS F**KING HURTS.". Hence why we do the operation before they can speak.
Are all the people who are pro circumcision women? Just ask because pp said imagine cutting off the *female* super sensitive spot.
Also, cutting off the entire clitoris is distinct from removing the foreskin. The male equivalent would be cutting off the head of the penis. There is a female equivalent to the male circumcision where the inner lips are removed but the clitoris stays, or one that's practiced in some middle eastern places where a small tip of skin is taken from the top of the clitoris, though i think more is taken from male foreskins if we're comparing procedures.
None of this is to say that i am pro circumcision, my son is intact and can do whatever he wants with his man bit when he's old enough to decide. Just wanted to clarify that the foreskin is not the male equivalent to a clitoris - though maybe that's not what was being suggested.
Also, obviously babies feel pain. Op, are you sure the person isn't just saying that to antagonize you? It sounds pretty ridiculous. Do they not think that babies have nerve endings? People sometimes make that argument about lobsters because they're exoskeletons I think, but human babies, why would someone think that? Makes no sense. It's true that in some procedures the baby may not feel any pain at the time - particularly if the anesthetic is strong enough or if a GA is used, but there will be pain during recovery, and if the baby is awake during the procedure there will also be psychological pain from the fear of being strapped down in one of those super torturey circumcision tables. OP, i think the person must be saying that the baby doesn't feel pain during the procedure, and it's true that physically, during the procedure, the penis may not feel any pain due to the anesthetic. But afterwards there must be some pain, there could be pain if the anesthetic doesn't work properly, there could be pain from thrashing about in the table or whatever.
OP, Yes babies feel pain, and some people think that they feel it more acutely than adults. They also exhibit elevated levels of cortisol during and after a circumcision (is that the word you were looking for?). Their response to pain is altered by the experience and as older children they appear to experience pain more acutely than either girls or intact boys. Check out www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/ . There are others, and if I find them I will post.
Along a similar vein, is the notion that they don't remember it. That is BS too. While explicit memory does not start until around age 3, and they can't consciously recall being circumcised, Implicit memory begins in the mother's womb. Everything that baby is exposed to leaves a trace on it's brain. It has been reported that some men exhibit symptoms of PTSD which can only be attributed to their childhood circumcision.
I'd turn it around on them. How can a baby not feel pain? What is different about a human baby that would make them not feel pain? At what age do things change that make it so a baby does feel pain?
IMO, it's a cop out. If babies don't feel pain, it's ok to rip body parts off them. Smh.
Do you think people actually believe that babies don't feel pain, or they just say that to be contentious and get a rise out of others. I am genuinely confused by this. I just don't see how anyone could believe this.
I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian. I spent most of my 20's pretending it was for health reasons but deep down it was because i find factory farmed meat to be a disgusting institution of mass torture and i simply can't abide by it nor take part in it. Now that i'm in my 30's i'm way more comfortable admitting this.
I'm a 2 day a week vegan, trying to move to 3 days a week. That actually is for health reasons in that i do it to keep my weight in check. It works amazingly well for that.
My children are both lacto ovo vegetarians. I can't lie to them and pretend that all the tortured meat comes from happy animals like what they see in books. I think if dh were to really want them to eat some meat and there was a way to make sure that it wasn't ever factory farmed then i could get behind eating some truly happy free range chickens or something. As it stands our brilliant allergist assured me (emphatically) that eggs are a full source of protein for littles and vegetarianism can be a perfectly healthy diet for babies and children.
I agree that babies can feel pain, and those who disagree are either being willfully ignorant or must be stupid. I can't see a third possible explanation. Maybe they're lying when they say they believe that, i guess that's a third possible option.
I have watched a circumcision done with local anesthesia, and it was a horrible experience. Horrible. The baby was crying beforehand as soon as he was strapped down, but he really screamed during the procedure. I truly believe that if parents were forced to watch circumcisions they'd stop very fast.
Also, what about after that local wears off? You'd think tit would hurt then, too.
As it turns out, there are lots of studies comparing different types of circumcisions and different types of anesthesia. There are well-established ways of estimating pain in babies (salivary cortisol, heart rate, and a clinical took called CRIES), as well as tons of ways of doing circumcision or the local anesthesia, so people do these comparisons. That they routinely detect differences in these studies means that something measurable is better addressed with some things than others, and argues very strongly that the babies do feel pain. If you want to see them, enter "circumcision AND (stress OR pain) NOT adult" in the search field here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed
Has no one else accidentally scratched or pinched their newborn?
It is very clear they feel pain and they feel it acutely. I am a firm believer that they not only feel pain but they feel it more intensely because it is so new to them they dont have the ability to process it like older people.
I was cut at 45 (see my forum post on regret). I cannot begin to explain the pain. If babies only feel a fraction of an adults suffering, its still deep, and long.
But parents must look beyond this. The pain is effectively lifelong - having an exposed gland forever is to say the least uncomfortable, until the sensitivty lessens, in which case so does the sexual enjoyment.
If you are thinking about circumcision, please look beyond initial pain and childcare. You are causing a lifechanging event. I have known life with and without a foreskin - since being cut the state I am in now, compared to being "natural" is one of discomfort and compromise. Not deeply, but constantly. You wont know what you are missing if you havnt had a healthy foreskin before, so few people understand the loss.
This is not a "what am I doing to my baby" issue, think "what am I doing to a future man".
I am a living study, an example of what this practice really changes to a man. It saddens me that some parents dont look at the bigger picture and are kept forcused on perceived childcare and local social attitudes
I am not afraid to admit it...yes, they feel a lot of pain. When I took Jordan to his circumcision, I was allowed to watch and it was heartbreaking I thought the doctor was gonna numb him, but as soon as I saw the forceps in her hand right after she strapped him down I knew something wasn't right. He screamed so loud it made me feel ill, I broke out in tears myself and asked her why she didn't numb him, she said "don't worry, we don't numb any boys because it only takes a minute to circumcize them and the clinic thinks its a waste of medication, he'll be just fine". I felt so much guilt and he cried every time he went to pee for the next few days. The only thing that made me feel better was when the doctor told me " he won't remember it and he will thank you when he is 15" LOL, 7 years later and he's a healthy boy So far the doctor was right, lets see what happens when he turns 15 ha-ha. So its not all bad, but I wouldn't want to put another boy through that, I just hope I don't have anymore boys lol.
Thank you AwesomeJessica for your painful honesty and helping to bring down the curtain of mystique that hides this terribly unatural practice of taking a knife to a baby.
From my experience, expecting 'thank you' from your son may be optimistic once he is 25 and had time to reflect on his unnatural anatomy. Polite respectful silence to parents is most likely, pragmatic acceptance of his unchangeable situation would be a good result, otherwise just hope that he does'nt awaken to the reality of what has been taken from him because that is a very sad path for a man to find himself going down. The pain at birth is an irrelevance compared to that journey.
Or just keep him surrounded by people who think its a good thing so he stays in lifelong ignorance, in which case better cut of his rights to a passport too.
I think it is critical that no newborn receive any significant pain, shock, or distress in their first year (at least), otherwise life long consequences occur. We must be protected & 'broken in' right, or risk being broken or cracked before we develop for at least a year, three if possible.
I swear that belief is just an excuse for doctors to not have to waste time or materials with anesthesia. In the 80s, even for serious, risky surgeries no anesthesia would be used on newborns. Even open heart surgery. They believed babies don't feel pain like we do. Studies since then (I don't even know why there had to be a study on infant pain.) show that babies feel pain like us or even more pain than us. Just as I thought. So, yes, I'm sure that babies feel immense pain and trauma from circumcision. Men just don't remember it because they were too young to remember. Circumcision are thought to keep the penis clean and it's easier to clean. Some parents creepily think about how it would feel for their sons during sex. It seems all very cosmetic reasons. Dr.'s are hesitant on the procedure, now, and you have to pay for it and find a Dr. willing to do it. I've seen babies shortly after they were circumcised. They are in pain. They still have to pee. They have gauzed thickly wrapped around their penises. They are screaming hysterically when they do go pee. The parents have to be careful the site doesn't get infected and keep from getting rashes.
AJ, that must have been the hardest moment of your life.
I swear that belief is just an excuse for doctors to not have to waste time or materials with anesthesia. In the 80s, even for serious, risky surgeries no anesthesia would be used on newborns. Even open heart surgery. They believed babies don't feel pain like we do. Studies since then (I don't even know why there had to be a study on infant pain.) show that babies feel pain like us or even more pain than us. Just as I thought. So, yes, I'm sure that babies feel immense pain and trauma from circumcision. Men just don't remember it because they were too young to remember.
I totally agree with what you say about babies experiencing pain. Often they go into shock during the circumcision procedure which is the state they are in when the doctors/nurses cheerfully tell the parents that "he slept right through it". What BS.
The memory part is interesting because explicit memory normally starts at about age 3, which is why most men can't actually recall being circumcised. However, implicit memory begins in the mother's womb and everything the baby is exposed to leaves a trace on it's brain. There is growing evidence that men circumcised as infants are psychologically affected. I certainly believe it
My husband has memory of his birth. I know, weird but, if in rare cases a person can remember that ( I did read about this in the art of breastfeeding ) then why couldn't they remember in some way tune pain of circ. And if a newborn cries during the pku prick for blood then how can anyone claim a baby feels no pain either during and after?
My husband has memory of his birth. I know, weird but, if in rare cases a person can remember that ( I did read about this in the art of breastfeeding ) then why couldn't they remember in some way tune pain of circ.
Interesting - there was a lady in California who was writing a paper on men who had a memory of their circumcision as infants. This was quite a few years ago (pre internet) and she was having trouble finding enough subjects, but I do recall that she had found about six such individuals. In one case the child, at about age 3 or 4 had asked his mother why she had allowed the man in the white coat to hurt his pee-pee.
I find this aspect quite fascinating. Most people seem to only focus on the physical aspects and ignore the psychological ones.
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