Scientific/peer reviewed articles needed - Mothering Forums

 1Likes
  • 1 Post By Greg B
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 14 Old 06-28-2015, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Scientific/peer reviewed articles needed

My hubby is quite scientific minded and even though he wants to circumcise if we have a son based off of no scientific evidence, the best way to reach him is with science. I will put my foot down and say no way in hell if I have to, but I'd rather it be our decision together.

I don't want to tell him to go research because there are too many pro-circ sites with men saying they did it at a later age and it was the best choice ever and wish their parents had done it when they were babies.
Thammy24 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 of 14 Old 06-28-2015, 12:01 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Thammy 24, I am a walking scientific experiment on what its like to have, then suddenly not have, a foreskin as a man. Read my lengthy story in response to your earlier question "my son" elsewhere on this section. My real life experience is sadly conclusive for me: life is far better being a man with a healthy foreskin. Thats not news to all the natural men in the world.

I cannot understand how it can be better without, unless your situation was really bad before. Not having a healthy foreskin to glide over, stimulate, and protect the gland is just not the way nature designed it, and without it life is frankly just uncomfortable at best. I really wish my new foreskinless situation was better, but its far from so. Ive had a penis for a long time, I have used it extensively and understand it well - I know both scenarios now - and I just dont get how it can be better without a foreskin. I really wish someone could explain it to me, I could do with the help.

My story wont be joyful reading to a man cut from birth, he will look for comfort in his unchangeable situation and hold on to scientific medical blabla written by a society that promotes this practice. North America is unique in the developed world to still be like this. Look carefully at all the influences that are at work, and ask yourself why its different elsewhere in secular, nature protecting countries.

Good luck protecting your son. I talk from a sadly experienced heart when I say that.

Last edited by JLUK; 06-28-2015 at 05:37 PM.
JLUK is offline  
#3 of 14 Old 06-28-2015, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Thank you so much. I found it. I'll have him read that. He has been stubborn in the past and said he doesn't want it more sensitive because then he'd orgasm too fast.

The only time he's ever had a mind blowing orgasm though is when I used my tongue at the base of his penis (not close to his hole though!) to stimulate his prostate gland I think. And he actually lasted longer because it felt so over whelming. So I may be able to get him off the 'it's a good thing it isn't very sensitive' train of thought'

Last edited by Thammy24; 06-28-2015 at 12:25 PM.
Thammy24 is offline  
#4 of 14 Old 06-28-2015, 01:22 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
You partner has answered his own issue : "HE doesnt want it more sensitive". What do you think your son will want ? let him decide later in life if its likely to be better living without a foreskin, that less enjoyment is a good thing.

I would say I have less control now, I have less "feeling" for what is going on down there. I am more conscious of myself, more preoccupied with myself, and less in tune with my partner. I feel more mechanical. I am certainly often frustrated.

Simple example : I used to be able to "find my way in" alone easily, More often than not I now need to use a hand to guide as I cant tell where I am so well anymore. That change was immediate. And yet Ive been taking the same road with the same lady for 30 yrs.

No medical study will tell that story.

Interesting that his best pleasure came from arousing a secondary part of his apparatus. The prostrate produces an alternative feeling, slightly mechanically induced 'overwhelming', and not close in my experience to the build up and thunder I enjoyed before of a well manipulated end-of-penis massage in whatever form. Using the prostrate is kinda 'cheating', but effective. Since being cut I dont enjoy the end of my gland being touched, in any form, it irritates me, its too raw and unsubtle now. Before, caress combined with foreskin, was heaven. This is the biggest loss in my experience.

Dont bridle a future man before hes had a chance to be a stallion. And if he has a problem with it when he grows up, then its his call to do and live with whatever he decides.

Last edited by JLUK; 06-28-2015 at 04:35 PM.
JLUK is offline  
#5 of 14 Old 06-29-2015, 12:08 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Medical Information

Your question had me searching around. I dont see any reports that relate to the reality I am living, in simple mans terms.

It seems to me the contents of the reports depends on the objectives behind the writer. I dont see many credible write ups by doctors, either way. Especially not those looking to prove that removing the foreskin is great. As you know, my experience is far from that.

There are a few 'real life studies' on the before/after impact on men, but these seem to relate to Africans and Russian Jews being cut in later life. They are not positive, but there are lots of political/religious issues going on around the reported findings so not entirely credible.

I am very much an 'average joe' - average build, mid age (late 40s), average sexual appetite. Main difference with the average is perhaps that Ive been with the same partner for a longer time than most.

So I thought it might help if I took the issues raised in medical reports and respond to them relative to my own "before" and "after" experience - which basically boils down to common sense if you look at it with an open mind.

Hygene - if you dont have regular access to warm water and soap this is obvious. Otherwise, with regular showering, I dont understand. Its no different to cleaning your armpits, feet and teeth.

STD/Aids : what ? if this applies to you, think about your lifestyle, not your foreskin. And which genius of a Dr decided it was good to announce that by being circumcised you were safe, so now the cut world thinks its OK not to wear protection anymore with multiple partners ? if you are going to play around, use protection.

Daily comfort : having your gland exposed all day, rubbing against your clothing, is not comfortable. You dont need a medical doctorate to report on that. The female equivalent is having your clitoris pulled out and grated against your jeans all day. Ends up dry and raw. And the day I get used to it because I have lost that sensitivity will be a bad day for my nighttime pleasure.

Masturbation : I used to be pretty good at this, my wife too. I wish someone would explain how to do this now with any dignity and satisfaction. Since being cut, I have not managed - its the way the puritans wanted it to be. Masturbation was an integral part of our intimacy, all gone now. Pleasure down 90% if not 100%

Oral sex : down 50%. Combining the movement with the foreskin is an irreplaceable joy. I have not had a Grade A orgasm yet.

Intercourse : Down 30%. I am less in tune with my partner. The build up is not gradual, its much more "on/off". If I wear a condom, its like wearing a glove.

Wife's experience : during intercourse - in the early stages, similar, but as the end approaches, we are not so in tune. This obviously translates into a less unified experience for both. Fore and afterplay, frankly this is becoming pointless, for me. Lovemaking is much less colourful for us both. I guess her general satisfaction is down 50%. She feels my general dissatisfaction and this touches her.

Lasts longer : timing was never an issue. Its now more difficult to be in tune with my partner, and I seem to have less feedback/control than before ie "togetherness" is now rare. As time goes by and sensitivity reduces further, its going to be a challenge to finish at all. Big disadvantage, for me.

Its quite simple, I challenge any Dr or expert who professes that not having a foreskin is a better place to be, to come spend a night next to me and my partner and explain what we are doing wrong since I was cut. We are not beginners, we have been having sex together on average a few times a week for 30 years and are naturally adventurous without being weird. Life with a foreskin between us was very much a better, more fun place to be.

No medical report is going to tell us otherwise.

But if anyone can give me and my wife some practical advice on dealing with the above issues, we would be most grateful.

Last edited by JLUK; 06-29-2015 at 03:39 AM.
JLUK is offline  
#6 of 14 Old 06-29-2015, 02:12 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Medical - Part 2

I have found a simple medical explanation for the function of the foreskin, from which the consequnces of not having it can be deduced with a little common sense. the author Lindsay R Watson, a New Zealander, is a cut-at-birth researcher studying the physical effects of a cut penis. This is his summary of the foreskin's function (backed by numerous medical study footnotes) :

- it provides pleasurable sensory input during sexual activities via the Meissners corpuscles in the rigid band, the inner foreskin mucosa, and the frenulum
- it protects the glans corona from abrasion, low air and water temperatuers, and drying out, in order to preserve its sensitivity
- it protects the inner foreskin mucosa from abrasion and drying out, in order to maintain sensitivty
- it provides enough skin for the erect penis to expand comfortably to its full erect volume, without skin tear or bleeds
- reduces the force needed to enter the vagina
- reduces the friction between the penis shaft and vaginal walls
- conserves the vaginal fluids by acting as a barrier within the vagina

Thats alot of technical blabla, but it basically translates to : without a foreskin, you should probably use alot of moisturiser during the day and lubrication during love. That pretty much reflects my new "after cut" lifestyle.

Relative to my long description of how I am experiencing the difference "before" and "after", I find the above is a good medical explanation for what is going on with that little piece of precious skin, and why its loss is of such consquence to daily, and nightly, life.

Hope it helps explain nature to the technically minded.

Last edited by JLUK; 06-29-2015 at 02:17 AM.
JLUK is offline  
#7 of 14 Old 06-29-2015, 01:54 PM
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Thammy24, There are lots of sites with tons of information, although "peer reviewed studies" are hard to find. The problem with most "studies" is that they are designed to "prove" whatever the author's preconceived viewpoint is, and therefore tend to lack objectivity. It all depends what you are looking for. Try: www.cirp.org , www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org , www.circumstitions.com . There is a great study that clearly shows that the 5 most sensitive parts on an intact penis don't even exist on a circumcised one at the cirp website.

One more significant point, that JLUK has discovered on his own and described in his post above is that circumcision causes a loss of control. An intact man can feel where he is and adjust to suit the situation, therefore prolonging the act if desired despite being more sensitive. Circumcision cuts off the neural pathways to the brain which explains why a circumcised man does not really enjoy the journey, just the destination - the ejaculation - which often comes like a runaway train with no control.

If you can be more specific, I can try to help with more definitive articles. The bottom line, that your DH does not seem to have grasped yet, is that the penis in question belongs to your son. Should it not be him who gets to decide whether bits get whacked off? Technically, this is a human rights issue.

Good for you for keeping your son whole.

Last edited by hakunangovi; 07-01-2015 at 09:35 AM.
hakunangovi is offline  
#8 of 14 Old 06-29-2015, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Mhmm I agree, but I have to be careful with how present things. so far most of the info I've received from you guys is sex related. How it will feel for him when he's older.

The whole sex feels better, it's more sensitive, there's 5 sensitive parts in the intact penis that a circumcised man doesn't have...all that info..., is just hard to present because there seem to be just as many personal stories of men getting circumcised at a later age that say it now feels more sensitive and sex is better and their wife likes it better, ect.

I will touch on it, but it can't be my main argument. And saying it is wrong to make the choice for him is hard too, because if our son had an extra toe for example, my husband would want surgery to remove it. Saying that it's not up to the parents but up to the child when he's older is not something that is going to change my husband's mind because he believes that the parents choose what is best for the child when the child is too young. And I do to, to an extend. I believe keeping him intact is the best thing for him so that's my choice.

The best thing I've heard which I will tell him is
'I'd rather have my son grow up and wish he was circumcised and be able to do so, instead of my son being circumcised and wish he had foreskin and not be able to do anything about it.'

The one decision (keeping him intact) is reversible, the other one is not reversible... That is logic my hubby won't be able to argue with.

Last edited by Thammy24; 06-29-2015 at 04:09 PM.
Thammy24 is offline  
#9 of 14 Old 06-29-2015, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Unless of course, men are different and providing enough stories that sex is better makes a man change his mind. Then I'll bombard him with it ha-ha.

He seems more stuck on the 'gross' factor and our son being teased and our son being upset he doesn't look like daddy and older brother ( my step son was circumcised)

To the gross factor I'll partially agree, my ex was unable to retract and it always smelled bad, but this is solveble if the guy wants it solved. So not a good reason to circumcise.

Last edited by Thammy24; 06-29-2015 at 06:02 PM.
Thammy24 is offline  
#10 of 14 Old 06-29-2015, 11:50 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Thammy24, I think you are right not to dwell on the sexual side of the argument with someone who is cut from birth. Let sleeping dogs lie on that one.

But for this forum the sexual point must not be belittled - and common sense should prevail over 'told you so' studies and reports. Please hear it from a man who is unexpectedly going through the change : ignore the dansing around the subject, this is purely a sexual matter - a healthy foreskin is an integral part of a mans sexual apparatus, like teeth are to eating and fingers are for holding. Just as removing a tooth or a finger will change chewing and grip, so taking the foreskin away will have sexual consequences, one way or the other, to varying extents. You dont really need reports to understand that. Some it might suit, others, like me, have a disaster.

For the man in question, that is the core issue that touches the rest of his life - and his own instinct, intelligence, beliefs and personal experience should be his guide.

Talking about that bottom line "sexual consequence" disturbs many people, as it conflicts with cultural, social, medical, and religious presentations and agendas. So the sex discussion is easily belittled, tutted-at, denied or swept under the carpet, and the focus conveniently turned towards more appealing or polite arguments - like childcare. Obviously its important for mothers to care for their baby - but the childs foreskin if healthy is a minor part in the big picture of his future life - who is caring for the future man and his penis ? who is caring for his view on his loss of his body part? its a lifelong consequence, this should be the heart of the debate. Reports and studies dont address that, they distract from it, and usually deliberately so from what I can tell.

Any man with the choice and thinking "shall I or shant I" will focus mainly on the sexual question, believe me. When I was suddenly told that in 1 hours time my foreskin was going to be amputated, I was not saying to myself 'oh good I wont have to wash it anymore' or 'at last, I can walk into the mens showers and not feel ridiculed'. My only thought was 'is it going to work the same?'. In fact I was so worried about the sexual consequences they had to calm me down with valium. Looking back, my instinct was right, but at least I had the choice, I could have walked out.

As the sexual question is the major issue to focus on, the only person to decide what is best for his penis and his sex life is its 'owner'. Not the doctor, not the parent, not the teacher, not the cheerleader, not the politician, not the cleric. Put frankly : what happens to my penis should be my business, not others. All those with different agendas probably fear that, if left to the adult boy to decide, he will take alot more convincing to part with his foreskin. And so it seems all the other distractions - childcare, pain, hygene etc - are used to put the discussion and pressure back onto parents who, softened by concern to conform and to do the perceived right thing, are easier targets.

So I would encourage you to hold your line "it should be his decision to make, not ours". This disturbs many groups, as there is no satisfactory moral reply to it, just distractions. And I believe your maternal instinct is a good one : your son is unlikely to resent you for not cutting at birth and leaving the choice to him, but if you cut him at birth he could question you when he grows up for taking the choice away from him forever.

Then dont be shy in teaching him how to wash.

And if in 18 years from now young North American girls are still giving uncut young guys a hard time, that the crowd ambiance is still 'ewwww gross' just at the thought, then send him over to Europe or wherever, he will have no worries trying it out elsewhere ....

Last edited by JLUK; 07-01-2015 at 02:53 AM.
JLUK is offline  
#11 of 14 Old 07-01-2015, 10:21 AM
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thammy24 View Post
Unless of course, men are different and providing enough stories that sex is better makes a man change his mind. Then I'll bombard him with it ha-ha.

He seems more stuck on the 'gross' factor and our son being teased and our son being upset he doesn't look like daddy and older brother ( my step son was circumcised)
Well, I agree that the sexual aspect is likely a hard sell to a circumcised man, and you really don't want it to appear like you are belittling him (or his package). Remember, too, that an adult who has consciously made the decision to rid himself of his foreskin is highly unlikely to admit that it was a mistake! At least until he is older, his glans has keritanized and he can't feel anything !! If you study the anatomy of a penis, the glans has few nerves and those that does have are pressure sensitive as opposed to the fine touch nerves in the foreskin ( Go to www.cirp.org and look up Dr John Taylor's paper on the prepuce)

I sincerely believe that the owner of the penis should have the choice. I would much rather explain why I left the option to my son rather than face an irate teenager demanding to know why I had allowed the most sensitive part of his penis to be amputated. I think your comparison to the extra toe is comparing apples to oranges. An extra toe is an anomaly - a birth defect. A foreskin is not - it is standard equipment. Sadly many North American doctors are arrogant enough that feel that nature made a mistake and that they know better.

I also sincerely believe that the "teasing" excuse is a myth. I spent all 12 years of grade school in boys boarding schools, with totally open, communal shower rooms. About 1/3 were intact , 2/3 circumcised. I never once witnessed any teasing based on circumcision status. It just seemed to be accepted that there were two types of penis. Similarly, I don't think a boy cares at all whether he "looks like Daddy", or his brother. There will be plenty of other differences such as hair and eye colour etc. Why would a penis, which is hidden most of the time matter? This is just the father's insecurity surfacing. Personally, I would far rather NOT look like my Dad, and still have my foreskin!!

The other, very important, aspect that has not been touched on is the psychological one. Circumcising a child can , and often does have a significant affect on his brain. I do not have a link handy as I'm on the road at the moment, but the Psychology Today website has an excellent paper on that. There is also a very good article written by Ronald Goldman (of Jews Against Circumcision) . People will claim that the baby won't remember it, but they are only half right. The baby will, most likely, not be able to recall the event because explicit memory starts at around 3 years of age. However, implicit memory begins in the mother's womb, and everything that the baby is exposed to will leave a trace on it's brain.

Don't give up !!

Last edited by hakunangovi; 07-01-2015 at 11:58 AM.
hakunangovi is offline  
#12 of 14 Old 07-01-2015, 10:13 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
This thread is on peer reviews. I would very much like to see reviews on the level of female understanding on this subject. I have spoken to perhaps 30 mid aged ladies, and the feedback is pretty constant :

- childcare - this interests them, and they understand that there is a risk of the foreskin being tight and causing infection. So it is understandable that they hear it when a Dr tells them to remove it to protect their child. Fortunately, here in Europe, circumcision is not encouraged by Drs and pretty much banned in public hospitals now.

- hygene - they understand a smelly foreskin is not nice. Dirty men are not doing the clean ones of us many favours ! Thanks guys.

- sexual consequences - not much understanding on this one. What did amaze me is that the girls I spoke to could not compute easily that there could be an effect, until I explained the loss of gliding movement etc, which they understood once I demonstrated by showing a napkin moving up and down over the top end of a bottle. So I understand that this most important of all points gets lost or ignored by women in their decision process

- Psychological impact - it seems women are allowed to cry, not men, they have to deal with a man thing in silence

I have been quite upset by my questioning of these women. Their limited understanding, or rather one-dimensional understanding, explains to me why this practice continues on babies. It is this realization that prompts me to be active on promoting wider understanding on mothering sites like this, and to keep repeating " ladies, you are holding a future man in your arms, think for him, and think with a clear and practical mind - nature put the foreskin there for a reason, try to understand why its there, try to appreciate that its removal has unnatural consequences - perhaps not on your little baby now, but on your future handsome young man"

Last edited by JLUK; 07-01-2015 at 10:30 PM.
JLUK is offline  
#13 of 14 Old 07-02-2015, 02:55 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
I met today the urologist that operated on me - one of the most eminent in Europe and a regular lecturer in the US. He is himself cut at birth, and his explanation to what I am going through was quite simple :

"The architecture of your penis has been completely changed, of course there is going to be an alteration in your sexual experience. The most common complaint in men like you cut later in life is indeed as you are seeing, the fall in pleasure. Unfortunately in your case it seems to be dramatic"

So there is a clear peer/scientific review from a pretty unbiased source, with a clear warning. To those suggesting the foreskin serves no purpose, or is a birth defect, my blood is chilled beyond belief given what I am experiencing. Such a suggestion can only come from a man who has never had a toe-curling orgasm.

I have been prescribed pleasure enhancing drugs, hope they will put a smile back on my face and a spring back in my step. So much for a natural solution. I can only imagine how cool it would be to take these drugs as a non cut man, oh well, dream on.

Last edited by JLUK; 07-03-2015 at 01:28 AM.
JLUK is offline  
#14 of 14 Old 07-03-2015, 04:35 AM
 
Greg B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dover, DE, US
Posts: 767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Look at these

The difficulty with answering your question is that peer review literature is only available if someone does it, and our society has not done much. But there are a number of valid reasons not to RIC in addition to sexual feeling and function. Here are a few things to look at that either have citations or are done by doctors who presumably would not say things without solid evidence:


http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...yStatement.pdf


http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Commentary.pdf


https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&...ZFw&nomobile=1




http://www.endalldisease.com/8-negat...ale-sexuality/


http://aeon.co/magazine/philosophy/m...equally-wrong/




Hope those help. I would not dump them all at once on your DH, rather, I would watch one a week, together, and then discuss over the course of that week, as you both felt was appropriate. Just a suggestion.


Best
hakunangovi likes this.
Greg B is offline  
Reply


User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

Online Users: 15,404

27 members and 15,377 guests
Beemo3780 , BirthFree , Dovenoir , girlspn , hillymum , jamesmorrow , Kelleybug , LibraSun , lisak1234 , MamaNika , manyhatsmom , MartinaTempleton , Michele123 , Mirzam , MountainMamaGC , MylittleTiger , PortlandRose , RollerCoasterMama , samaxtics , sciencemum , Skippy918 , stellakelly , summer19 , thefragile7393 , zebra15
Most users ever online was 449,755, 06-25-2014 at 12:21 PM.