Mothering Forum banner

why do people STILL circumcize?

3K views 66 replies 35 participants last post by  loving-my-babies 
#1 ·
ok, I have heard the whole "circ'ing prevents cancer, AIDS and infection" crap. I know it's just something doctors/parents say because they feel guilty about circ'ing their sons (when they don't want to admit they have been wrong all along), but I want to know WHY do they still do this???
why would they? do they actually *think* it's best for baby? I can't believe when people tell me circ'ed penises are easier to clean. intact ones are just as easy, I mean how hard is it to clean an extra part of your body, YK?
Plus, why would men be born intact if they were meant to be circ'ed? To me, the human body is just too perfect to be born with such a big "mistake"

why do you think it's still so popular in the US, when even the AAP no longer recommends it?
 
#27 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorful~Mama
i won't return to the thread - but some people still circumcize because it was commanded by G-d. So if someone believes in G-d and believes that Jesus didn't come to change the Law but to fulfill it, those people would still chose to circumcise their sons in accordance with the covenant.

There is a very interesting question here:

http://www.debateforums.net/showthre...1326#post31326

Perhaps you can answer it.

Frank
 
#29 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinijocaro
Colorful-Mama

How exactly does circumcision fit in with the whole AP philosophy? I am having a real hard time figuring this out.

Jackie

it doesn't. circumcision is not natural, it's cutting a piece of a child's body, most of the time with no pain killers. like the pp said, the social pressure is too much and parents hide themselves behing excuses because there ISN'T medical proof that circ'ing is better. or oh... yeah that cancer study.. so why don't we go ahead and cut our breasts off to prevent breast cancer? and while we're at it, let's just cut everything off...

and to the post about relig. circ'ing... I'm curious, what does G d mean? thanks in advance...
 
#30 ·
colorful mama:

i think i got it...

do you write g-d instead of God?

why do you skip the o? (just curious)

and I will say this again, my question excluded religious circ'ing, I am not getting into that... (I am only talking abotu routine circ'ing in non-required-by-religion people)
 
#31 ·
"They don't do it because it is in the best interest of their sons. They will say that it is, but really I think they do it for their (the parents) best interest. They don't have the strenght to stand up for what is right and take the heat from others who might make fun of them. I know I have put up with a lot of criticism for not mutilating my ds. They just can't take that criticism and want to fit in. The circ rate nationally *is* about 50/50 but we all know there are areas where it is about 90/10. These parents are too weak to risk being in that 10%."

I think you hit the nail on the head! ITA 100%. I think that some do it out of plain ignorance. Heck, I know that if I had not been given the info that I had from my Bradley instructor I probably would have done it because I thought that's just what you did. All it took was ONE article from Mothering (I think...it was a long time ago) and I knew that there was no way in hell I would do that to MY kid. My dh read the article with me, and he agreed 100%. What I have serious problems with is when someone KNOWS and does it anyway. I honestly don't know how they sleep at night.


Anyway, I think that this is my first post in this forum. I have been round and round in some of the circ debate forums. I'm just tired of some of the same old arguements. I guess I hang out there just waiting for an argument for circ that in anyway makes sense. Unfortunately its just the same sheeple and sickos that parade through the debates trying unsucessfully to justify what they have taken from their sons.....its maddening.
 
#32 ·
I believe I live in an area where the circ rate is still pretty high, but no one has questioned our decision. The nurses in the hospital seemed a bit confused when we refused it, but they never pressured us (they probably hate being there during them anyway). The only person to have even seen DS with a diaper off (except me and DH) is my MIL, and she hasn't said anything. Perhaps she realizes circ'ing my DH was wrong.
 
#33 ·
You know what's so odd Suz? I went to Philadelphia to protest at the ACOG convention... and the VAST majority of OBs who stopped to chat- stated that THE ONLY reason why they do circumcisions is because "it's what the parent's want" Over and over, for 3 days, I listed to OBs whine to me like little helpless babies that they are victims of the cultural pressure of parents who want circumcisions on their sons.

I heard it at least 150 times.

They told me that I was WRONG to go protest THEM because they were not at the ROOT of the PROBLEM... YOU ARE.

They had the nerve to tell me that it was MY JOB to educate YOU... It is MY JOB to tell you that circumcision is a provincial rite that uninformed people do to their kids with no medical value. That circumcision is the mark of the uneducated masses.

150 Obstetrician circumcisers told me that they don't want to do it- but it's people like YOU who keep this going... this disgusting cycle where all males are supposed to be mutilated to match the males who were mutilated in the past and the males who will be mutilated on into the future... it's your defiant refusal to update your sexist opinion of the normal male body that keeps this going.

Regardless if I agreed with their argument (oh those poor helpless vulnerable little Obs) I thought I would tell you what they asked me to tell you. They don't respect you. They talked about parents who want circumcisions with disdain... but they will allow you to believe what you want because they are making money off violating your child's body and they don't care because no one is holding them accountable for their breach of medical ethics..

Then, two weeks later I went to the International CAPPA convention, I spoke with many midwives, doulas, childbirth educators and lactation consultants. In speaking with about 75 people at length, there was ONE (only ONE!!!) disjointed confused woman who was visibly agitated at the idea that a man has a right to his physical integrity. She shook her head and repeated "It doesn't matter" over and over, she was utterly unable to grasp basic concepts we were presenting*.... but her 3 friends were all very much against circumcision and were eager to collect any information they could in order that they could be MORE EFFECTIVE in undoing the brainwashing that people like you who believe in circumcision have accepted. There were two other women who were Jewish who were interested in learning more about the arguments against circumcision, and although they personally were not agaisnt it, they only had a religious idea that was holding them toward it.

The theme at the CAPPA conference was the SAME... "It's the parents who want it- we all KNOW it is WRONG... but they already have their minds made up... we are helpless to stop them.. they insist, they refuse to listen... they are adamant... they can't face the reality of what it is they are doing to their child... if they knew better they wouldn't do it... but I CAN't get them to listen!!"

In the month of May I heard over 200 childbirth professionals say to me that circumcision is ONLY done because parents want to do it.

So why is it that you have such a desire to turn your son's penis inside out?

What is it about that that makes you feel so... civilized and educated? What makes your "inside out penis culture" so great that we Americans who are not a part of it are missing out on? Huh? What did I miss? When I grew up I obviously missed the genital mutilation cultural indoctrination... because somehow I never got the compulsion that you did. When did it happen to you? How did you get to be so ENLIGHTENED?

Was it some little Texas girls in 5th grade who never even saw a penis except for the one girl who was in the know because she was molested? Did your grandmother give birth tied to a bed and drugged with scopalimine (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...ep+labor&hl=en) decide that the medical interventions of HER DAY were the be all and end all of what is supposed to happen from now on in the family? ... or was it from the caliber of people, Nobel prize winners even, who signed the Ashley Montague petition? (oh and in case you don't know... they were all against circumcision... I have yet to see the fanatastic list of intellectuals who would like to publicly proclaim their penchant FOR male mutilation in a cultural advancement petition to perfect the flawed male form... maybe you will be the first?)

Where did you learn that circumcision was so great? Where could we go to get the great education on mutilation that you did?

You don't agree with the "basic Premise" so what is the premise that you DO agree with? That all males are inherently flawed and need surgical correction in order to fit in your high society? Where do males who have not been surgicly modified fit into your cultural picture? Second class?
 
#34 ·
Many Jewish people do not write out the word God, but instead G*d or g_d out of respect. However, I do not think the original question pertained to religious circumcision as we are not suposed to discuss that on this board.

I do find it odd, however, that the one person who beleived RIC was best, could not give a cognitive answer to the original post.
 
#35 ·
How does circ fit in with natural parenting/ap?

Good question, although being natural or ap doesn't seem to be a requirement any longer to get a "support" forum here at mdc.

I can't help pointing out to the pro-circ parents here at mdc (is that a misnomer?) that there might be hope for a pro-circ forum. It could go next to the abm-support and c-sec support threads. (tongue in cheek, *hopefully)
 
#36 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorful~Mama
i don't come to this forum since we don't discuss religious circumcision here theres nothing i more i would or could say to help the thread. So i said what i wanted to say and then i left.

no reason to get snippy really. See, now you brought me back. for what purpose? to say again that some people still circumcize because G-d commanded it.
I still have nothing to add. Nor would i comment on the other posts. And i really woudl never be rude to another poster. thats not...

nice.

Then, don't come to this forum at all if that is all you have to say. The guidelines clearly state that defending circumcision in the name of religion is not allowed. You're the one who brought religion up--everyone else was talking about non-religious reasons that circ still continues.
 
#38 ·
yeah, barb, you know i love you but have to disagree with you on this one, yet i cannot, because the topic is not allowed here. that is not... nice. you could've posted it in spirituality where i could've posted my insistance on debating centuries worth of rabbis (yes, i'm not so qualified, but the biblical historians i've read *are*), but here, i'm just screwed & have to keep my foot in my mouth.

my jewish dh (and my jewish sons, to anyone but the orthodox- and since we have dna testing now, even they need to rethink the matrilineal descent thing, imho- and israel agrees for making aliyah, even if they don't want our kind, lol, barb) is sad and angry that it happened to him, & glad that we left our children intact. doesn't interfere with our messianic beliefs at all. of all the laws, why this one that wasn't even in the book of j but added by priestly redactors later? why hurt a child when there is doubt that g-d wanted anyone to do such a thing at all, but that it was likely added later to explain an existing pagan blood-ritual remnant?

now SEE, this is why you are supposed to keep this in 'spirituality'! it is not fair- or nice- to post something no one is allowed to respond to honestly.

and txsuz, i'm sorry that you have been so misinformed. i hope your son will forgive you, because one day he is going to part of an increasing minority of the generation of genitally mutilated children, and he is going to wonder why (my dh is still pretty pissed, and he at least has the religious angle. 'social & medical'? are we still fighting this battle from the beginning?)

ok! ready for editing! (can we just throw this in spirituality rather than kill it? god knows it would be mild enough in 'activism'.)

suse
 
#41 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
ok, I have heard the whole "circ'ing prevents cancer, AIDS and infection" crap. I know it's just something doctors/parents say because they feel guilty about circ'ing their sons (when they don't want to admit they have been wrong all along), but I want to know WHY do they still do this???
We may guess that feeling guilty conciously or unconciously, or avoiding feeling guilty would be part of it, however I would really love to know from circumcising parents why they do it. I know I have heard the look alike thing both concerning dads and peers. I truly believe that there are those that think they know it is cleaner. Shoot, our culture is squeemish when it comes to genitalia. I have yet to find a practitioner who is willing to figure out if anything can be done about some damage I had from birthing.) It is disconcerning to know that some think it is medically necessary when as Frank said there is not a medical association in the world that claims the medical necessity of it. I think some doctors may not be stating information about it being medically uneccessary. Why? Maybe there is some fear because of the litigation happy nation we are, although I would think this would keep things leaning toward keeping boys intact. Or the fear of the conflict between medical and cultural or religious influence?

I am quite curious about the literary and cultural background of the Jewish tradition of circumcising. I am curious about the Muslim tradition as well. I am curious to note that these faiths originate near one another globally (correct me if you think I am wrong here). Was there something going on during a part of our worlds history that circumcision really addressed and so it became part of a tradition? Is it mentioned in the bible? Does this hold up with the many different interpretations and translations of the bible? I think a vital part of a religious practice is having faith. It is not difficult for me to understand why circumcision continues within a religious context. If one were to choose to go against the practices of their religious culture, wouldn't it be only because they accept another faith as well? I know this brings up all kinds of rights issues such as what is rightfully a parents choice...... please no lectures here. I am only finding compassion to understand the complexity of the issue.

I hope I'm not out of line to be posting this? I have no religious debate in mind. I have no bashing intent. It is a complex issue which deserves great thought, determination, and compassion.

Certainly our culture has many stories which support circumcision. I read "Operating Instructions" which is a funny book based on a mothers journal. In it she mentions circumcising her son because of all the medical reasons (which those who have researched know now are not true). I don't know what the prevalent thought was when she had her son. I wonder how many moms-to-be read this book thinking that what she wrote is truth. Would she add a disclaimer saying that the AAP states that there is no medical reason? I know it has been a popular book, how many have been influenced by it?

Enough
 
#43 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
that's right... you said it yourself.. this is "the case AGAINST circ" forum and my question was directed to anti'circing moms. you know if you go into an anti-circ'ing forum you will NOT find mamas that agree with genital mutilation. that's why there is no "circ'ing forum" because it's not normal and not natural.
So . . . IOW, you don't really want an answer to the original question, you just want to have another go-round at bashing parents who circ.

Got it.
 
#44 ·
Of course this isn't news to anyone, but a lot of parents still circ because they have heard the following lies repeated by important people in their lives:

"It's just something thathas to be done." (my loving mom who Ap'd us in the 70's but who idolizes doctors and was probably told this lie by her doctor)

"Better to do it now than when he's older" (my loving, very intelligent father who was circ'ed at 12 and traumatized by it)

"It's just a little snip. It only hurts for a second" (my "childbirth instructor")

"It's a sign of God's covenant with his people" (my pastor--an Early Church historian, no less--certainly he should know that circ has never been part of Church tradition!!!!)

"It will prevent him from getting UTI's (my circ'ed dh, who almost died from a UTI at age 17)

Honestly, if you never hear the other side of the story, and you've been bullied by your OB throughout your pregnancy into believing that you need all sorts of interventions, then you've been trained to ignore the voice in your head that screams, "this is so wrong!" I allowed it to be done to my first (second was spared, thank goodness) because of the above reasons. Plus I was a young mother facing an unplanned pregnancy and throughout the previous nine months had been preoccupied with: being tempted to abort, then quitting my job, moving, finding a new job, getting married, and adjusting to marriage and pregnancy. Researching optimal birth experiences and circumcision was not on my priority list. I don't think we should vilify mothers who often are themselves victims of lies and bullying. The DOCTORS and HOSPITALS KNOW BETTER!!!!! and shouldn't be offering it or should at least be aggressively discouraging it. I'm pissed aobut it even 3 years later and if I could I would sue the s**t out of the hospital that let me do such a hideous thing out of IGNORANCE.
 
#45 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by hummingbear
I am quite curious about the literary and cultural background of the Jewish tradition of circumcising. ...Was there something going on during a part of our worlds history that circumcision really addressed and so it became part of a tradition? Is it mentioned in the bible? ...I hope I'm not out of line to be posting this? I have no religious debate in mind. I have no bashing intent. It is a complex issue which deserves great thought, determination, and compassion.
hummingbear, come on over to the Spirituality board for answers to your questions. Yes, YHWH's covenant with Moses, which includes circing, is in the Bible.

You can ask your q's on Spirituality and get information and/or respectful debate.
 
#46 ·
Pickle- I totally hear your pain! I don't think it's fair to expect parents to pull themselves up out of the quicksand by their own bootstraps... that's why I was so disgusted by the spineless attitude of all those OBs who whined to me about how "the parents made me do it" well... for some reason... the fact that you (Mr. OB) would do it at all... gave those parents the stupid idea that there was some medical validity!! Maybe if parents needed to go down to "little Hati" in the city and go in the shop of a fortune teller to get their son's penis cut- they would get a better picture of the fact that this has no medical value. What idea are they supposed to get when one of the first papers they get coming into the hospital is a consent form for the circumcision?

I think you totally have a position to sue. No one should regret something that they signed an "informed consent form" for they way you do. No one. I think you should talk to a lawyer about it, but even if you don't follow through with a lawsuit- you should write some stronly worded letters to all the people involved who knew better and let you down. These letters do pack a punch and make a difference, and you can refer to the case of Anita Flatt in ND as an example of a lawsuit from a "good" outcome but poor informed consent process. If nothing else, you can cause them to seriously think abut changing the way that they solicit parents for circumcisions. You say lawsuit and they will sit up and listen. They betrayed your trust. They caused your son harm. They should not get away with it... Just get mad- tell them off! Dr., Hospital, medical board, state hospital regulatory comission... cc it all!

You should also document the consent form and the story of how the circumcision came to be NOW and put it in a safe place... so that in 15 years if your son wants to do his own lawsuit- he will have the paperwork he needs to make a case.

Love Sarah
 
#47 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneymoonBaby
So . . . IOW, you don't really want an answer to the original question, you just want to have another go-round at bashing parents who circ.

Got it.

No, we want to let mothers know that there is absolutely no reason to put your child through incredible pain, take the choice away from him and cause sexual damage and early impotence. We want to let you know that there is no known medical, sexual or social benefit to putting your son through amputative surgery as a newborn. We want to tell you that taking care of an whole and natural infant is far easier than taking care of a surgical wound and all of the risks and complications. We want you to know that your son can have lifelong complications, both physical and psychological from an uninformed decision and a decision that can actually cause his death. We want to tell you that there is a huge base of information on this issue that will be just as easily available to your son as it is to you and you may have a very tense and difficult discussion about this in 15 years that could tear your family apart.

I don't think that is bashing in any form or fashion. I think it is caring concern. None of us here get any kind of reward for what we do. We do it out of compassion for yet to be born babies, sons, husbands and wives.

Perhaps you can tell us why it is so important to you to do this to your son?

Frank
 
#48 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneymoonBaby
So . . . IOW, you don't really want an answer to the original question, you just want to have another go-round at bashing parents who circ.

Got it.
The intention is like Frank said, to educate people that don't know. I post here because I belong to this forum, I am against circ'ing. the forum is "the case against circumcision", which means I am allowed to vent here. All the mamas in the anti-circ'ing forum are allowed to, because it's not a circ'ing debate forum or a "should we or should we not?" forum. If you agree with circ'ing, then really, the only reason you would be here is to get information on why we don't circumcize, if you don't agree with circ'ing and will not change your mind, then what's the point in being here? we are allowed to vent and say what we feel about circ'ing. This is the place to do it. And I am not bashing parents who circ. I don't expect parents who circ. to come here to the ANTI-CIRC'ING FORUM. why do that to yourself? you know we're not going to be pro-circing, so why???
 
#49 ·
Well- I don't agree. I am glad that the title of this message board supports genital integrity, but I would feel very sad if that was to mean that this board is going to be exclusive. I think any and all conversations we have can help US and can help other people and we all have a lot to learn!

I say- all ideas are welcome to be discussed... they may not be recieved with glowing support- but these discussion should not be avoided- we all stand to gain from them!

Some of the best threads here happen because someone gripes about the mindset of someone else... (for example the femenist thread) and that winds up being a fantastic topic except that the third party never gets to explain themself. Why would it be so bad if that "third party" was not the subject of gossip, but instead was a real person here discussing their feelings and experiences? Wouldn't that thread be even better if those women were here to explain why they can't embrace the idea of HUMAN rights to genital integrity? And wouldn't it be great if they could have read all OUR posts?

Love Sarah
 
#50 ·
I do agree with you Sarah, but I answered that to honeymoonbaby because she said I was bashing circ'ing parents, I'm not, but if I want to vent and ask a question, if I can't do it here then where can I? The purpose of the thread was truly to know the reasons why people circ. (and in part a vent too)
 
#51 ·
I guess the point I was trying to make was just:

Why ask why people still circumcize if you don't want to hear from people who actually DO? Do you just want to sit around and speculate with your anti-circ friends about why all the poor, stupid masses do this, or do you want an honest answer from someone who actually circs?

I didn't say whether I was going to circumcize my son. You have no idea if I plan to do that. It doesn't take a pro-circer to see the irony in asking an exclusive group of ardent anti-circers for honest reasons why other people choose to circ.

Edited to add: "Yeah, what Sarah said."
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top