why do people STILL circumcize? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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ok, I have heard the whole "circ'ing prevents cancer, AIDS and infection" crap. I know it's just something doctors/parents say because they feel guilty about circ'ing their sons (when they don't want to admit they have been wrong all along), but I want to know WHY do they still do this???
why would they? do they actually *think* it's best for baby? I can't believe when people tell me circ'ed penises are easier to clean. intact ones are just as easy, I mean how hard is it to clean an extra part of your body, YK?
Plus, why would men be born intact if they were meant to be circ'ed? To me, the human body is just too perfect to be born with such a big "mistake"

why do you think it's still so popular in the US, when even the AAP no longer recommends it?
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#2 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 05:10 PM
 
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The biggest guess off the top of my head is that people are still grossly uneducated about it. The second reason I can think of, after they know the facts and still do it, is b/c they feel a desperate need to fit in or something.

I have a friend that just did it to her new son last Thurs. I spent 45 min talking w/ her about it and being very factual and quite frank about the pain, how it's done, how the rates are about 50/50 now, etc. She just didn't care. She showed absolutely NO emotion about it. She had even seen her 1st son's surgery. She was pleased that she didn't have to be present this time. I asked her how she could turn off her mothering instincts and just let her son go have something so incredibly painful done w/out a second thought. "Well, we've decided we're doing it." and "It's just a difference of opinion."

How do you reach people like that?? :

I'm so incredibly sad for the little boys.
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#3 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 06:01 PM
 
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Probably the most disturbing one is the mother in Vancouver who lost her son to a circumcision complication and says if she has another, she will circumcise again. How many would she kill before she changed her mind?





Frank

PS: Second thoughts . . . What if you were that woman's second son and learned your brother had died from his circumcision and you were circumcised. What the heck would you think of your own mother?
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#4 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 06:30 PM
 
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I hated to do it to my son, but dh insisted, because he was circumcised and he did'nt want other kids making fun of ds if he was'nt. I showed him articles, etc... but could not sway him. In a way I am thankful my son was circed only because we would not have known that his platelets were so low, or by the time we would have found out it could have been fatal. I cried when ds was circed, my hubby video tapped my son when they were checking his circ (they were putting pressure on it to try and stop the bleeding) I have to fast forward through that part and still cry, dh won't let me erase it. I don't know why they still do it either.

There was a baby in the nicu that was getting circed while I was visiting dd. I just wanted to die, especially since I felt bad enough for the poor baby already having a rough start to life. I knew they were doing it, because they were talking about it and they did it when the parents were not there. When it was all over I wanted to hold and love that baby so bad.
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#5 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 06:51 PM
 
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Because despite what you may think there are some of us that think it is the best thing for our child and we have every right to circ our sons. I am educated on the subject and I truly feel that it is the best (medically and socially) thing for my son.

But then again I don't belong in this forum because I disgree with the basic premise. Heck, half of my API group circs their son. Most people still do. You do what you want with your child and let me do what I want with mine...
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#6 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasSuz
You do what you want with your child and let me do what I want with mine...
How far does that premise go? Should I have the legal right to cut the genitalia of my daughter? Why not? She's mine, right? You talk about your child as if he were property.


ANYWAY, back the the original question (before we were so rudely interrupted in our case AGAINST circumcision forum), a lot of times circ is perpetuated by fathers who don't want to believe that their circ was a mistake.....so in some strange twist of logic, they circ their sons to make themselves feel better.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#7 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 07:56 PM
 
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I think the Father thing might be a good point. My dh was very pro-circ when we first started having kids. I was so greatful my first was a girl. Then along came #2. It was a boy. We discussed the issue again and again. Finally I gave in. But our ped didn't do them, so I made an appointment with one of her associates for 2 weeks after ds was born. And in those 2 weeks I changed his diapers, nursed him, loved on him. And then the day came, and I thought... What the heck am I doing? When aremy ds and dh ever going to be sitting around comparing their penises? And if they ever do do that, even if my ds was circ'd he still wouldn't be exactly the same as my dh. So I called and cancelled the appointment. Then I called my dh at work and told him, I wasn't taking in our son. And you know what? He was releaved. He said he kept thinking about it for 2 weeks and just didn't see why he was so for it. So now I have 2 intact sons and my dh is so happy we never did it to either of the boys.
So to make a long story short LOL!!! Maybe it is a "guy" thing. The dads want their sons to look like them. I don't know, it is messed up.
People use that "personal choice" thing a lot when it comes to this issue. And it burns my butt, because some personal choices are just bad and so people should be in formed about it. Yet so many don't even want to listen. Like wearing 6 inch heels to climb Mt Everest is a personal choice, but you will probably DIE if you do it, so isn't it important to listen to the experts and such? And really think about it?

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#8 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 08:15 PM
 
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I think most of the time it is ignorance. Most people just don't even know to question it...and the drs and nurses really push it when you are in the hospital. Most people just blindly trust that their drs will do what is in their best interest.

For the people that do the research and still do it... well I think it is because the dh doesn't want to admit that his penis was mutilated, and because they are sheep and it's just easier to go along with what they think everyone else is doing instead of actually using their brain.
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#9 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 09:15 PM
 
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IMHO - I see NO, absolutely NO, none, zilch reason to circ -
ever !!!!!!!!!!
I'll leave it like that.

not starting any debates either.

Me & DH hug2.gif , adult DD lips.gif & 7 yo DS guitar.gif . 2 GSDs, 6 rescue kitties, 4 birds & a gerbil.
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#10 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 09:19 PM
 
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How else will the hosptial make money????? What about the K-Y producers????? What about the pharmacutical company that MUST sell Viagra?????? They count too! and FAR more than our chattel, er, sons do

~diana

~diana google me: hahamommy. Unschooling Supermama to Hayden :Super Cool Girlfriend to Scotty . Former wife to Mitch & former mama to Hannahbear
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#11 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 09:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasSuz
Because despite what you may think there are some of us that think it is the best thing for our child and we have every right to circ our sons. I am educated on the subject and I truly feel that it is the best (medically and socially) thing for my son.
You feel you are more informed than every medical association in the world? I think not! There is a clear statement from every medical association in the world that circumcision is not recommended and to go against those recommendations is simply reckless conduct with your child at risk. Think you have the right? At least one Supreme Court Justice disagrees with you and a soon to be heard court case may say otherwise. I would recommend you read the Saskatchewan and British Columbia threads here. I would also recommend you read the 14th Ammendment to the US Constitution and the 1996 FGM law. If you were truly educated I think you would think otherwise.


Quote:
But then again I don't belong in this forum because I disgree with the basic premise. Heck, half of my API group circs their son. Most people still do. You do what you want with your child and let me do what I want with mine...
Ummmmm . . . . . . Yes, this is a very contentious issue on the internet and half are not circumcising. There will be abundant evidence to your son that there is no benefit and that you took unnecessary and unwarranted liberties with the most personal and private part of his body. I suspect that by the time he is 18 years old, that he will be able to easily access the truth and will have some very difficult queestions for you. Are you prepared to answer them?



Frank
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#12 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 10:03 PM
 
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#13 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 10:04 PM
 
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Everyone around me told me it's better to circumcise.

Ripping, tearing, and slicing at the most sensitive part of my newborn child's body for ten minutes with very little or no anesthesia did not seem like a good idea to me.

Now that I've researched it thoroughly, and realize the extreme trauma it causes many children's minds and bodies, I'm glad I went with my mothering instinct.

First, do no harm.

People that mutilate their babies need to justify it. If they admitted to the horror of what they have done to their infants, it would cause too much pain.
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#14 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasSuz
But then again I don't belong in this forum because I disgree with the basic premise.

that's right... you said it yourself.. this is "the case AGAINST circ" forum and my question was directed to anti'circing moms. you know if you go into an anti-circ'ing forum you will NOT find mamas that agree with genital mutilation. that's why there is no "circ'ing forum" because it's not normal and not natural.
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#15 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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and I agree how so many people do this because they don't know any better...
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#16 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 11:50 PM
 
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To me, the human body is just too perfect to be born with such a big "mistake"
I second that!

I have never even considered circumcising my son. Where I come from nobody does (except Jews) and everyone is FINE!! (Probably having better sex than most circ'd guys if you ask me)

Anyway, I think genital mutilation is terrible and totally unnecessary, it's like someone said: "Would you remove an eyelid to clean your eye better?"

Dh is circ'd but totally supports me on this (and many, many other issues). I even caught him looking tenderly at ds and telling him gently: "You're lucky, you know that? You're intact, sleep with us and have num-nums (bf) whenever you need."
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#17 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 11:55 PM
 
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i won't return to the thread - but some people still circumcize because it was commanded by G-d. So if someone believes in G-d and believes that Jesus didn't come to change the Law but to fulfill it, those people would still chose to circumcise their sons in accordance with the covenant.
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#18 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 11:55 PM
 
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But then again I don't belong in this forum because I disgree with the basic premise. Heck, half of my API group circs their son. Most people still do. You do what you want with your child and let me do what I want with mine...[/QUOTE]

Maybe in your backwards little corner of the world most people still do, but over 80% of the worlds men are intact, so "most people still do" is anything but a truthful statement.

Truth is the U.S. is the ONLY country in the world that still circs the majority of its baby boys, and even their rate is around 50/50 now.

Tara

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#19 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sagira
I second that!

I have never even considered circumcising my son. Where I come from nobody does (except Jews) and everyone is FINE!! (Probably having better sex than most circ'd guys if you ask me)

Anyway, I think genital mutilation is terrible and totally unnecessary, it's like someone said: "Would you remove an eyelid to clean your eye better?"

Dh is circ'd but totally supports me on this (and many, many other issues). I even caught him looking tenderly at ds and telling him gently: "You're lucky, you know that? You're intact, sleep with us and have num-nums (bf) whenever you need."

I agree 100% with this. Where I come from it's actually unheard of. (I'm glad, dh isn't circ'ed and I thank God he's not!)
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#20 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 11:57 PM
 
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It seems that the moms that I know that do it *do* know better--they are very well read and still do it. I think it is because they sincerely think it is "cleaner" or "more hygenic" to have it done.

I have a friend who did not circ her son (she did her first) and now she talks in detail on a board I go to about having to teach her 2 year old to pull back to the foreskin to clean it and that he has to do it every single time he pees in the toilet too. I have tried very hard to convince her that he does not have to do this--that they should just leave it alone (a simple bath or shower is fine!) but she does not seem to believe me because a doctor told her otherwise. She says this stuff on the board, and all of the moms with boys that have circ'ed--I can hear them all sighing a collective sigh of relief that they had it done because they cannot imagine having to "spend so much time teaching their son to clean it". So she makes it sound much more dirty and complicated than it really is, and people go "who needs that?" and are very happy with their choice.

So I think that is one reason.

Both of our families (my parents and my inlaws) were horrified that we chose not to circ our son when he was born 10 years ago, and my mom is always badgering me about the cleaning issue (which is a total NON issue for us--he takes a shower or bath each day and has had zero problems) and asking if he has UTI's. So people tend to think it is cleaner and "healthier" I think--which is very frustrating.
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#21 of 67 Old 06-07-2004, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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TexasSue: even though I do not agree with you at all, I am still interested in knowing why you think it's best. since you came to the anti-circ'ing thread I'm sure we'll all curious.
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#22 of 67 Old 06-08-2004, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasSuz
Most people still do.
(nak)
if i were you i would educate myself more on the subject! most people in the world DON'T do it... see some people are so closed-minded that still believe this country is "the rest of the world" well, it's not! there's a whole world out there that does not do genital mutilation.
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#23 of 67 Old 06-08-2004, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Colorful~Mama
i won't return to the thread -

Post-and-run. Nice.

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#24 of 67 Old 06-08-2004, 12:54 AM
 
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Post-and-run. Nice.
i don't come to this forum since we don't discuss religious circumcision here theres nothing i more i would or could say to help the thread. So i said what i wanted to say and then i left.

no reason to get snippy really. See, now you brought me back. for what purpose? to say again that some people still circumcize because G-d commanded it.
I still have nothing to add. Nor would i comment on the other posts. And i really woudl never be rude to another poster. thats not...

nice.
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#25 of 67 Old 06-08-2004, 01:34 AM
 
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I am discussing RIC only here.

I have given this topic a lot of thought for years now. I think honestly parents are hiding behind the outdated "medical" excuses because they can't stand up to what is the norm around them. They know it is harmful, they know it hurts their sons but the social pressure it too much. If a parent truly looked at the research (and not pro-circing fetish sites) they wouldn't do it for so called medical reasons , because it is pretty clear there aren't any. At least be honest and say you circ **only** because it is socially accepted among those you know and you have your own hang ups about foreskin. For goodness sakes don't try to come to this forum and say you do it for medical reasons.
Hmmm the whole every one does it goes back to the old saying "if all your friends jumped off a bridge would you?". Parents who have circed and have every intention on circing again have to defend their "right" to do this so they can hide behind parental rights instead of standing up and doing what is right for their son. No way in hell is circing the right thing to do to an infant , to strap him down and painfully, sexually violate him in the name of social conformity. It's wrong and any parent who thought about it objectively would see that. It's ony when those who have done this that have to defend themselves from the horror they have put their sons thru that they can't see it objectively. It is so much easier to deny the pain they have caused the sons they love so much then to stand up for what is right. It is so much easier to keep saying circing is best when everyone you know does it and to think it is wrong then you have to admit that all the people you repsect and love have done something horrible to the most vunerable among them. Denial is so much easier for the parents anyway. I am positive if you asked the infants if they wanted to suffer thru a circ so they'd "fit" in they would get up and f'ing run if they could. Come on think about it who would say yes to having a *healthy, useful, normal* part of their genitals removed. I know I wouldn't sign up for that!! Also , don't fool yourself into thinking you have done what is best for your son. Painfully , unnecessarily removing healthy body parts from an infant is NOT in their best interest.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#26 of 67 Old 06-08-2004, 08:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sheacoby
Also , don't fool yourself into thinking you have done what is best for your son. Painfully , unnecessarily removing healthy body parts from an infant is NOT in their best interest.
They don't do it because it is in the best interest of their sons. They will say that it is, but really I think they do it for their (the parents) best interest. They don't have the strenght to stand up for what is right and take the heat from others who might make fun of them. I know I have put up with a lot of criticism for not mutilating my ds. They just can't take that criticism and want to fit in. The circ rate nationally *is* about 50/50 but we all know there are areas where it is about 90/10. These parents are too weak to risk being in that 10%.
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#27 of 67 Old 06-08-2004, 09:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Colorful~Mama
i won't return to the thread - but some people still circumcize because it was commanded by G-d. So if someone believes in G-d and believes that Jesus didn't come to change the Law but to fulfill it, those people would still chose to circumcise their sons in accordance with the covenant.

There is a very interesting question here:

http://www.debateforums.net/showthre...1326#post31326

Perhaps you can answer it.




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#28 of 67 Old 06-08-2004, 09:08 AM
 
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Colorful-Mama

How exactly does circumcision fit in with the whole AP philosophy? I am having a real hard time figuring this out.

Jackie
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#29 of 67 Old 06-08-2004, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Tinijocaro
Colorful-Mama

How exactly does circumcision fit in with the whole AP philosophy? I am having a real hard time figuring this out.

Jackie

it doesn't. circumcision is not natural, it's cutting a piece of a child's body, most of the time with no pain killers. like the pp said, the social pressure is too much and parents hide themselves behing excuses because there ISN'T medical proof that circ'ing is better. or oh... yeah that cancer study.. so why don't we go ahead and cut our breasts off to prevent breast cancer? and while we're at it, let's just cut everything off...

and to the post about relig. circ'ing... I'm curious, what does G d mean? thanks in advance...
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#30 of 67 Old 06-08-2004, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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colorful mama:

i think i got it...

do you write g-d instead of God?

why do you skip the o? (just curious)

and I will say this again, my question excluded religious circ'ing, I am not getting into that... (I am only talking abotu routine circ'ing in non-required-by-religion people)
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