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#31 of 50 Old 05-07-2005, 06:42 PM
 
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I just wanted to insert something here. My son was circ'ed for religious reasons. We may circ if we have another boy - I am not sure (please do not flame me). For the first 3 days it was a little weepy and red, but has looked absolutely fine since then. I was grateful that we had him circ'ed as we discovered his hypospadias quite a bit sooner and were able to have it repaired at 18 months instead of waiting til he was older. He was given a lidocaine shot, sugar water and nursed immediately afterward. He was also given Tylenol every 4 hrs for 3 days.

It seems like mamas on this board exagerrate how terrible circing looks and all the problems associated with it. For someone like me, who is open to information about non-circ'ing, this makes me shut those people out. When all I hear is how they have a wound forever and it's sticky and horrible and causes the child pain for years, I stop listening. My dh is circ'ed and has never had a problem. We have great sex . My son is circ'ed and has had no problems. Hyperboles tend to make people tune out.

I know you all mean well, but I think the message gets blurred. Not holding a circ'ed baby seems really strange to me. Other parents make different choices than you sometimes and it seems a *bit* controlling to me to say that you could not be friends with someone who circ'ed their child even when you gave them information. I give information to people about breastfeeding all the time and many of them still use formula. They are still my friends.

Tamara: hs'ing Christian mom of five here and five in Heaven. Joyfully awaiting Punkin, coming mid-Sept!
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#32 of 50 Old 05-07-2005, 07:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pfamilygal
For the first 3 days it was a little weepy and red, but has looked absolutely fine since then.
Yes, it looks alright, but you don't know how being circed is going to effect him as an adult. You aren't going to know how much the loss of skin is going to effect his sex life. Just because it looks fine doens't mean it is.
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Originally Posted by pfamilygal
I was grateful that we had him circ'ed as we discovered his hypospadias quite a bit sooner and were able to have it repaired at 18 months instead of waiting til he was older. He was given a lidocaine shot, sugar water and nursed immediately afterward. He was also given Tylenol every 4 hrs for 3 days.
Don't doctors like waiting on circing children with hypospadias because they use the foreskin to help with the surgery? I'm glad you at least gave your son some pain relief since he had major cosmetic surgery.
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Originally Posted by pfamilygal
It seems like mamas on this board exagerrate how terrible circing looks and all the problems associated with it. For someone like me, who is open to information about non-circ'ing, this makes me shut those people out. When all I hear is how they have a wound forever and it's sticky and horrible and causes the child pain for years, I stop listening. My dh is circ'ed and has never had a problem. We have great sex . My son is circ'ed and has had no problems.
I don't exagerrate anything and no one else on here does (that I've noticed). Just because you, your husband, and your child have not had any problems yet doens't mean you won't. I have low vaginal discharge anyway and combined with the fact that my husband isn't intact makes for horribly painful sex. Using lubrication is very common in the US and it has mostly to do with the fact that the cut penis draws womens natural lubrication out of the vagina during sex making it dry and prone to abraision (sp?) and tearing. Everytime my husband and I have sex I get rubbed raw. That isn't supposed to happen and it wouldn't if he were intact.
You say your husband is happy, but just think of how much more he would enjoy sex and how much more you would enjoy sex if it was the way nature intended it?
This analogy has been used many times, but I'll use it again:
If you were born seeing only in black and white you wouldn't mind it, in fact you'd say it's great! You love seeing the world and it's so much fun. You can't imagine why anyone would be anyother way, I mean, you're fine. Well, one day you wake up and you see the world in color. You see the intense red, the beautiful blue sky, the pink cheeks on a baby, the tan legs of women on the beach, etc.. Would you still think just black and white was ok?

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Originally Posted by pfamilygal
I know you all mean well, but I think the message gets blurred. Not holding a circ'ed baby seems really strange to me. Other parents make different choices than you sometimes and it seems a *bit* controlling to me to say that you could not be friends with someone who circ'ed their child even when you gave them information. I give information to people about breastfeeding all the time and many of them still use formula. They are still my friends.
But our point is, is that cirumcision should NOT be your choice. It is NOT your body, therefore you should not be able to make a decision like that. This is not a surgery to benefit the human body. It takes away from it. In many ways. To preform surgery on a human being without consent is a crime. Why is this any different? There are no health benefits to it, why are we still doing it? I can not and will not befriend people who choose to preform cosmetic surgery on their child without consent when they know that it does nothing but cause problems. Anybody who does that IMO is an arrogent jerk and does not deserve to have me as a friend.

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#33 of 50 Old 05-07-2005, 08:36 PM
 
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pfamilygal - we feel the same way about choosing to cut a boy as we do choosing to cut a girl. But most of us (thank God!) don't live in countries where girl cutting is common.

And by 'choosing', I mean someone who refuses to educate themselves after they are given information about circumcision. Someone who does it because they can, basically.

We aren't doing it to punish them, or to punish their child. At least I'm not. I do it because if I associate with them I am condoning their action. In my way, I am complicit in it, if I were to associate with them.

Once they have the opportunity to learn that the foreskin of their son is not disposable yet they cut it off anyway, well. Would this be an issue if it was any other part of the child?

I would not want anything to do with them if they cut off the child's ears, or the nostrils, or the little toes. The difference is no Western cultures do those things, so pretty much anyone who did it would be jailed for assault, and nobody would think it odd if we didn't want our kids to play with the lady who goes to jail after every child of hers is born because she persists in cutting off their nostrils and ears.

I like the entire healthy child to be left intact - either sex - any body parts.
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#34 of 50 Old 05-07-2005, 09:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by feebeeglee
pfamilygal - we feel the same way about choosing to cut a boy as we do choosing to cut a girl. But most of us (thank God!) don't live in countries where girl cutting is common.

And by 'choosing', I mean someone who refuses to educate themselves after they are given information about circumcision. Someone who does it because they can, basically.

We aren't doing it to punish them, or to punish their child. At least I'm not. I do it because if I associate with them I am condoning their action. In my way, I am complicit in it, if I were to associate with them.

Once they have the opportunity to learn that the foreskin of their son is not disposable yet they cut it off anyway, well. Would this be an issue if it was any other part of the child?

I would not want anything to do with them if they cut off the child's ears, or the nostrils, or the little toes. The difference is no Western cultures do those things, so pretty much anyone who did it would be jailed for assault, and nobody would think it odd if we didn't want our kids to play with the lady who goes to jail after every child of hers is born because she persists in cutting off their nostrils and ears.

I like the entire healthy child to be left intact - either sex - any body parts.
: said much better than I did.

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#35 of 50 Old 05-07-2005, 10:24 PM
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pfamilygal,
This is the case AGAINST circumcision board. (NOT the "circumcision debate" board.) Please keep that in mind. Thanks.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#36 of 50 Old 05-07-2005, 10:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pfamilygal
Hyperboles tend to make people tune out.
And trivializing people's real problems makes them angry too. I hope you don't mean to do that. But just because you're having great sex doesn't mean that circing doesn't cause lifelong sexual problems. Severe ones. And if you're trying to say it ain't so, you're trivializing a real problem of DH's and mine.

Not to mention the problems of countless boys and men who literally bear the scars.

About the questions at hand, my answers would be:

1. Really hard to keep a relationship with child abusers who are aware of what they're doing.

2. I couldn't resist holding a baby - especially one who had been tortured. But that's my way. I would hope to at least be one person who's energy allowed for them to express their pain and experience trust. Maybe I'm just delusional.


I also wanted to add to the frey about the vax comparison... (though I'm not gonna dig up any quotes from above) Vaxes also cause lifelong damage and severe complications. I was damaged without my consent. So was DH, though he got vaxed and circ'ed. But you can't say that it's different b/c circ causes lifelong damage, and vaxes don't. That's just not true.

Kathryn, you're absolutely right that most vaxes are done truely b/c the parents think it's "healthy". The fear-mongering about vaxes has to date not been easily countered. (I personally think that the med industry puts more resources into squelching anti-vaxers because there is more long-term profit to be lost...) But nevertheless intactivism seems to be working at a faster rate. That translates to me that those who circ have no excuse once they are presented with the facts. Deciding not to vax is a little harder, in that the facts are SSOOO convoluted and the propaganda machine has taken over the entire world. Plus, you WILL be threatened, harrassed, ostersized, and constantly accused of child endangerment if you dare think differently than they.

Deciding not to circ, by comparison, doesn't seem so hard to me, once you know what it means. Even the AAP doesn't recommend it anymore.
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#37 of 50 Old 05-07-2005, 11:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pfamilygal
I just wanted to insert something here. My son was circ'ed for religious reasons. We may circ if we have another boy - I am not sure (please do not flame me). For the first 3 days it was a little weepy and red, but has looked absolutely fine since then. I was grateful that we had him circ'ed as we discovered his hypospadias quite a bit sooner and were able to have it repaired at 18 months instead of waiting til he was older. He was given a lidocaine shot, sugar water and nursed immediately afterward. He was also given Tylenol every 4 hrs for 3 days.

It seems like mamas on this board exagerrate how terrible circing looks and all the problems associated with it. For someone like me, who is open to information about non-circ'ing, this makes me shut those people out. When all I hear is how they have a wound forever and it's sticky and horrible and causes the child pain for years, I stop listening. My dh is circ'ed and has never had a problem. We have great sex . My son is circ'ed and has had no problems. Hyperboles tend to make people tune out.

I know you all mean well, but I think the message gets blurred. Not holding a circ'ed baby seems really strange to me. Other parents make different choices than you sometimes and it seems a *bit* controlling to me to say that you could not be friends with someone who circ'ed their child even when you gave them information. I give information to people about breastfeeding all the time and many of them still use formula. They are still my friends.

Just a few comments/questions

1)Aren't religious circs usually done by a mohel or some other type of ritual circumciser?

2)If you don't want to be flamed for being pro-circ then "The Case Against Circumcision" probably is not the right forum for you to be posting pro-circumcision messages.

3)The whole point of this side of the "debate" is that there is no need for it to ever look weepy and red. Not for three days, not ever. And "looking absolutely fine" is a matter of opinion. He is still scarred.

4)Once the MD noticed he had hypospadias, the operation should have been stopped. Hypospadias is a contraindication for circumcision.

5)As far as how people talk on this board. This is the "Case Against Circumcision" board. We are against circumcision and as such see it in a negative light. Compared to a normal, unscarred, intact penis, yes I do think a circumcised one looks terrible, especially in one so young, especially since there is no reason for it to look that way in the first place.

6) As far as you shutting people out, that is your choice. The truth is sometimes not very nice to hear, but it doesn't make it any less true.

7) My dh and I have great sex too and he is circed. I did have one lover years ago that had a curvature in his penis due to an uneven and very tight circumcision. Sex was very uncomfortable for me to the point where intercourse was very infrequent. Just because one person has no problems doesn't mean noone has any. Some are not apparent until maturity, when the penis reaches its full size.

8)Losing friendships over circumcision I think has a deeper reason than just the circumcision. For me, it is the morals and ethics of a person who would choose to put a child through something like a circumcision when they know that there is no valid reason for them to do so. The importance of "looking like Daddy" should not overshadow the health and well being (not to mention the rights and freedoms) of their child.

I hope that explains for you a different POV.

Take care,
Tara

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#38 of 50 Old 05-08-2005, 12:20 AM
 
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Very well said Tara! Exactly what I wanted to say.

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#39 of 50 Old 05-08-2005, 12:25 AM
 
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I didn't say I was adamantly pro-circ. I am looking for information. But I want accurate information and often here it seems to me that it is claimed that most men have problems with sex, etc, after circ'ing. I would like to see hard data about how common this is.

Some religious people circ with a mohel - we chose to circ in the hospital. It seemed safer to me and it meant my son could have pain relief. They did not discover his hypospadias during the circ. He had a depression at the tip of his penis that appeared to be a urethra. It was at his one year checkup, with a new pedi, that we discovered the hypospadias. He said, "so when are we fixing this?" I said, "fixing what?!!" What I meant about the circ was that if he hadn't been retracted at that point (if he were intact) we wouldn't have seen the hypospadias. His urethra was at the bottom of the glans on the underneath side of his penis. When he got an erection it was very crooked, but he was my first. I didn't know how it was supposed to look. My pedi is actively anti-circ and when I asked him if the crookedness could be caused by a bad circ he said "no."

They moved his urethra to the tip of his glans during the surgery. Then they cut around the bottom of the glans and pulled the skin back. The urologist said they gave him some sort of shot to stimulate an erection and then had to cut some muscles and stitch to straighten it out before tacking the skin back up. He had a catheter for a few days and we kept him pretty dopey with the Lortab elixer. I'm just glad we could have it done at such a young age. I know it gets worse the older the child is.

I know this is an anti-circ board. I was just saying that when you say mean things about people who choose circumcision (stone hearts, etc) you don't do much to change people's minds. Most people won't go to a place that seems unfriendly.

Tamara: hs'ing Christian mom of five here and five in Heaven. Joyfully awaiting Punkin, coming mid-Sept!
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#40 of 50 Old 05-08-2005, 01:01 AM
 
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I want to add here that we are, by and large, very open. When it gets to a point where we have to actively defend our position that it is not a good idea to cut off healthy parts of little children simply because an adult wants to cut them off - then we get a little touchy.
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#41 of 50 Old 05-08-2005, 01:23 AM
 
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I really do think you are looking for information and really we have a ton of it if you want it. I think the way you asked didn't set well with me and probably others. You came in and said that your dh and ds are both circed and neither of them have problems so you don't see what the big deal is. This was my impression so I'm sorry if I took it wrong. I know I didn't use to think it was a big deal but the more I read about it the more opposed I become. If you'd like to read more about the damage done you can check out the following link. It has a list of all of the things lost from a circumcision.

http://www.norm.org/lost.html

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#42 of 50 Old 05-08-2005, 01:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pfamilygal
I just wanted to insert something here. My son was circ'ed for religious reasons. We may circ if we have another boy - I am not sure (please do not flame me). For the first 3 days it was a little weepy and red, but has looked absolutely fine since then. I was grateful that we had him circ'ed as we discovered his hypospadias quite a bit sooner and were able to have it repaired at 18 months instead of waiting til he was older. He was given a lidocaine shot, sugar water and nursed immediately afterward. He was also given Tylenol every 4 hrs for 3 days.
Excellent. I commend you for getting him some pain relief during and after his surgery. Seriously - a horrifyingly huge majority of circumcisions are performed with no pain relief at all.

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It seems like mamas on this board exagerrate how terrible circing looks and all the problems associated with it.
We don't, I swear. The complications really are that common. Meatal stenosis - where the urethra narrows and urine flow becomes impeded - happens about 10 percent of the time. That's not an intactivist site I'm sending you to - in fact I found that link on a pro-circumcision forum at another site. Skin bridges of foreskin fused to the glans and the inner foreskin happen all the time. Other complications are less common, but still very real. At any rate they are common enough that the risks of the circumcision procedure outweigh the benefits, as the American Academy of Pediatrics has found, hence neither they nor any other national medical organization in the world recommends routine neonatal circumcision

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For someone like me, who is open to information about non-circ'ing, this makes me shut those people out. When all I hear is how they have a wound forever and it's sticky and horrible and causes the child pain for years, I stop listening.
There is a thread on the front page right now that speaks of a child in mid-childhood (he's 6? 8?) who was circumcised as a newborn who is in severe discomfort from the procedure as his glans emerges from his remnant foreskin more fully. Listen to that.

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My dh is circ'ed and has never had a problem. We have great sex . My son is circ'ed and has had no problems. Hyperboles tend to make people tune out.
I agree, they do. I'm glad you and your husband are satisfied. Most circumcised men are happy with sex as well, I'd say. I'm also glad your son is OK.

Quote:
I know you all mean well, but I think the message gets blurred. Not holding a circ'ed baby seems really strange to me. Other parents make different choices than you sometimes and it seems a *bit* controlling to me to say that you could not be friends with someone who circ'ed their child even when you gave them information. I give information to people about breastfeeding all the time and many of them still use formula. They are still my friends.
Well it's not controlling for me, at least, because I'm not withholding my friendship because I think that somehow depriving them of me will change their mind. I do it for myself, and my sanity. I gave them a chance, usually many many chances, and finally they don't take it - well, legally I can't do a thing for the child. The information is there if they look for it and they are not my responsibility any more. I can spend my time telling other people about circumcision.

I'm pretty sure I would not end a friendship solely because the mother chose to use formula. I think the difference is that leaving a child intact requires no action on the part of the parents. Breastfeeding does require effort, and lots of it.
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#43 of 50 Old 05-08-2005, 03:35 AM
 
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pfamilygal. You have to also remember that this board is read by people who come from totally intact cultures. People like me.

I often see Americans being absolutely horrified by all types of female circumcision(even the mild ones where there is nothing cut away just blood is drawn a little bit). They feel sorry for all girls circumcised and wondering why any parent could do that to a child - religious or cultural.

Here in Scandinavia male circumcision is concidered as shocking as female circ - no matter what the reason is, religious or cultural. No one here can understand why any parent would allow that to be done to an innocent baby boy. Circumcised boys look scarred and hurt here same way as circumcised girls.

Comparing formula using to circumcision is little bit strange. (ofcourse I agree that breastmilk is the best). Circumcision leaves lifelong scar, keratinization and so many other problems even if it is done 'succesfully'. Most circumcised women in Africa and Asia swear that they have no problems and their sexlife is great - that is because they have no idea how their sexlife would be with all the parts. Many circumcised men also say this and they think that problems they get when they get older are caused by age&mother nature when in fact they are caused by infant circumcision.

I do not end friendships based on circumcision status. But I do not want to see circumcised children,boys or girls, I feel so sorry for them. I'm also very happy that in USA circumcision rates are dropping quite fast.
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#44 of 50 Old 05-08-2005, 11:37 AM
 
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pfamilygal:

Do you understand that a hospital circumcision has no religious significance at all? That is, that it is the same as any other circumcision unless it is done as a part of a religious celebration and done by a mohel?



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#45 of 50 Old 05-09-2005, 12:26 AM
 
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I can't beleive I am contradicting Frank BUT,

"Do you understand that a hospital circumcision has no religious significance at all? That is, that it is the same as any other circumcision unless it is done as a part of a religious celebration and done by a mohel?"

The Reform tradition, for example, does not adhere to the same strict rules as other Jewish traditions. In particular, the reform rabbi I talked to did not require us to have a circumcision by mohel (had we chosen to circ). They would have been fine if we had a hospital circ (dh strangly, thought that would be better and wanted that over by a mohel) they even suggested that we should have a ceremony even if we were not going to circ.

I believe that statement would be true for most Orthodox temples, but they may make exceptions for medical issues- or just take a drop of blood, as they do with adult conversions.

Also (I think someone prev. stated this, but I didn't say anything then), in interfaith families, a person is Jewish if they are raised Jewish. So this means that it does not have to follow the traditional line which is through the mother. So, even though I am NOT Jewish, and my dh is only because his mother converted (and his mother's conversion is only accepted through reform law), if we raise our son Jewish- HE IS Jewish, even though he is intact- amen. Confusing, huh. Again, this is only through the Reform community.

I'm only partially familiar with all of this as I am in an interfaith family-- but I know that Conservative, Orthodox, Reform, and Humanistic Jews (I'm probably missing some) all do things differently- just like the various Christian denominations.

In any case, the penis status never really makes someone NOT a Jew from everythign I have researched (even the Orthodox on Penn & Teller said something to this extent).

Just a small point to clarify. FWIW,

Jessica

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#46 of 50 Old 05-09-2005, 06:54 AM
 
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This is something I have never heard before. I know that a person's Jewishness comes through the mother and that any male born to a Jewish mother is considered Jewish whether he is circumcised or not. But, I had always heard that the circumcision had no religious significance unless it was performed as a part of the bris ritual. Could this possibly be an outgrowth of the circumcisions that were routinely done without parental consent up until the early 1970's? I have read of Jewish families that were very upset that this happened to them because they had planned on having it done as part of the ceremony and therefore, they ceremony could not be done as prescribed.



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#47 of 50 Old 05-09-2005, 10:09 AM
 
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I had been told that if you have a circ preformed at the hospital you still have to go through a traditional drawing of penile blood with a mohel since he didn't do the actual circ.

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#48 of 50 Old 05-09-2005, 02:22 PM
 
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Just a friendly reminder about religious discussion in this forum.... In general, religious discussion is not hosted here due the fact that it most always deteriorates into a debate. This is The Case Against Circumcision Board and we are here to inform and discuss, not debate. While I see no debate here of of yet....I just want to be proactive and give a little reminder.

Thanks so much!

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#49 of 50 Old 05-09-2005, 02:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PuppyFluffer
Just a friendly reminder about religious discussion in this forum.... In general, religious discussion is not hosted here due the fact that it most always deteriorates into a debate. This is The Case Against Circumcision Board and we are here to inform and discuss, not debate. While I see no debate here of of yet....I just want to be proactive and give a little reminder.

Thanks so much!
Thank you for reminding.

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#50 of 50 Old 05-09-2005, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi all, havn't been to this forum in a few days and all I can say is WOW! I didn't mean to stir up such commotion.
speaking for myself and ONLY myself I want to clarify.
I have found it hard to maintain my friendships with my friends who have chosen to circ (after providing them with all the info I could) BECAUSE I guess mainly How? Why? I just can't understand why anyone who has been given the reasons to keep a child intact and still decide's to go ahead and do it could be driven by anything other than conformity and it is hard for me to associate with someone who could put a cosmetic procedure over the health and well-being of their own flesh and blood.
Also, This particular mamma claims to be an ap'ing mamma.
In my opinion circing is not ap at all. ( I may be flamed for that one sorry).

However, at the present time our friendship remains. It remains for personal reasons which include some hardships she has helped get me thru prior to the birth of her child. I do have to admitt that now I am finding it harder to associate with her because I now question her motives when it comes to her children and it makes it hard for me to respect her (if that makes any sense)

When it comes to her baby. I agree that the baby is innocent of all of this and all I ment in my post is that It never even donned on me that I had never asked to hold the child untill some people mentioned it. After reading those posts and looking at myself and my thoughts I guess I still dont know why I havn't held her baby. It isn't his fault his parents chose this. Maybe it is because of the issues I am having with his mother. I honestly do not know. I will have to look inward to find an answer for this one.

Untill then my apologies.
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