A mother told me a horrendous story yesterday...*UPDATE* - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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The Case Against Circumcision > A mother told me a horrendous story yesterday...*UPDATE*
Mountain Chick's Avatar Mountain Chick 01:35 AM 09-14-2005
LandonsMom,
See if your library has "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision" by Dr. Paul M. Fleiss. It is such a good book and will answer most of your and your husbands questions. And Dr. Fleiss used to perform circumcisions before he learned the truth about them. The book also give the history about how circumcision became popular...very interesting...and disturbing...and disgusting. There are other books on the subject and websites to read too. Maybe if you get a full understanding of the subject, and had some printed material from a "Medical Doctor" to go through with your husband, he would change his mind about it.

Best of luck to you.

Mountain Chick's Avatar Mountain Chick 01:56 AM 09-14-2005
Here are some more titles to look for and if your lucky, your library may have some of them:

Say no to circumcision! : 40 compelling reasons why you should respect his birthright and keep your son whole by Thomas J. Ritter

Doctors Re-examine Circumcision by Thomas J. Ritter

Circumcision exposed : rethinking a medical and cultural tradition by Billy Ray Boyd

Circumcision : the painful dilemma by Rosemary Romberg.



Circumcision, The Hidden Trauma : How an American Cultural Practice Affects Infants and Ultimately Us All by Ronald Goldman

And for those of you with Jewish friends:

Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective by Ronald Goldman


And to any wife who is going to approach her circumcised husband with this kind of undeniable information, please consider that he may resist initially out of his own hurt and betrayal. Give him plenty of support and time to process and cope. And let him know there is possibly hope. Here are some books on the subject.

Sex as Nature Intended It: The Most Important Thing You Need to Know about Making Love, but No One Could Tell You Until Now by Kristen O'Hara

Decircumcision : Foreskin Restoration ,Methods and Circumcision Practices by Gary M. Griffin
daekini's Avatar daekini 10:59 AM 09-14-2005
I agree with the PP that you should support circumsized men who may have very personal feelings about the matter and cover it up with superficial arguments for having the procedure done on their sons. Tender words and imploring them to really look deeply at the repercussions of circ may have multiple effects... once we started really thinking about not circ'ing, my dh thought about his childhood and realized that a surgical procedure he had at 4 was actually done to repair a circ injury (this may be tmi, but he was told it was to "make his pee-hole bigger"). This really made an impact on our decision not to circ. Some men may have had complications from their circ and don't realize it til they start thinking about it - most of the time they don't give it a second thought.
Frankly Speaking's Avatar Frankly Speaking 01:08 PM 09-14-2005
Alison, what your husband had was meatal stenosis that is exclusively a complication of circumcision. Most men would not remember even having the surgical correction at such a young age and many men who have fairly glaring complications of circumcision don't realize it. Unless we are gay, men don't have the opportunity to inspect other men's penises and know what a well performed circumcision should look like and minus that information, just assume what they have is normal. I even know of intact men that are so in the dark about what is normal that they think they are circumcised and are quite surprised to find that they are not. One of these men had his son circumcised to look like him. Obviously, he was quite surprised to learn that due to his decision, his son would not look like him unless he also had himself circumcised. He was quite clear that he would not be having the procedure. Suddenly, it was far less important that his son look like him!



Frank
wackynaturelady's Avatar wackynaturelady 04:27 PM 09-14-2005
How awful for that little one to go through such consistent torture at the beginning of his life. It's a twisted culture, when it comes to this.
This thread was really informative for me, though. My 1-month old is intact, but, unfortunately, I had my first ds circ'd 13 years ago. I always said the doctor 'didn't do a good job', because some of the foreskin still covered some of the glans. My son never had any unusual 'problems' with it, though. Funny thing is, now that I know about circ and have researched it, I have been grateful that my oldest had at least some foreskin and wouldn't have the tight-circ stuff. This thread is the first place I've read that they do this on purpose and it eases some of my pain and guilt for having ds circ'd. Doesn't help the pain he suffered or the rest of the foreskin he lost, but at least I know it could be worse.
Bm31's Avatar Bm31 07:51 AM 09-15-2005
Hi everyone! I've lurked here for a while (joined at the suggestion of another member here that I "met" on another board), but I've never posted before. You are all such a wonderful, informed group of people I never felt there was anything I could add. But I always enjoyed checking in here to see there is still some sanity in this world, compared to the fear and ignorance I've come across on other circ discussion boards.

I have noticed, though, that a lot of people's dh's push to circ their sons and wanted to respond to daekini's post. You are so right! That's why I totally admire many of the mother's here that have fought their circ'd dh's on this issue. The idea that they have the penis doesn't make their opinion the end-all.

I know how easy it is to be brain-washed by the pro-circ culture here in the US. I was circ'd as an infant and it was re-done at age 6. It wasn't until I was 35 years old I put the whole story together and realized how unnecessary it all was. It wasn't until 2 years after that (thanks to internet research and resources like this board) I recalled another little in-office procedure the urologist (that did the re-circ...and badly botched it) did was for meatal stenosis....I now know was caused by the circ. I never thought my penis was just "fine" like most circ'd men who wouldn't know any different....next to no sensation left after all their meddling....besides the physical effects of the botch job. But I do know how easy it is to buy into the whole culture surrounding this practice. Until I fully understood what was done to me, I blindly thought circ was a must-do thing....and that I just had a defective penis that caused problems. I now realize it was the circ that caused the problems to begin with.

My hat's off to all the mothers here that stand by their sons, especially those that have to go that extra step of convincing the fathers.
MrsMoe's Avatar MrsMoe 08:22 AM 09-15-2005
God - how disturbing
njeb's Avatar njeb 09:56 AM 09-15-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bm31
Hi everyone! I've lurked here for a while (joined at the suggestion of another member here that I "met" on another board), but I've never posted before. You are all such a wonderful, informed group of people I never felt there was anything I could add. But I always enjoyed checking in here to see there is still some sanity in this world, compared to the fear and ignorance I've come across on other circ discussion boards.

I have noticed, though, that a lot of people's dh's push to circ their sons and wanted to respond to daekini's post. You are so right! That's why I totally admire many of the mother's here that have fought their circ'd dh's on this issue. The idea that they have the penis doesn't make their opinion the end-all.

I know how easy it is to be brain-washed by the pro-circ culture here in the US. I was circ'd as an infant and it was re-done at age 6. It wasn't until I was 35 years old I put the whole story together and realized how unnecessary it all was. It wasn't until 2 years after that (thanks to internet research and resources like this board) I recalled another little in-office procedure the urologist (that did the re-circ...and badly botched it) did was for meatal stenosis....I now know was caused by the circ. I never thought my penis was just "fine" like most circ'd men who wouldn't know any different....next to no sensation left after all their meddling....besides the physical effects of the botch job. But I do know how easy it is to buy into the whole culture surrounding this practice. Until I fully understood what was done to me, I blindly thought circ was a must-do thing....and that I just had a defective penis that caused problems. I now realize it was the circ that caused the problems to begin with.

My hat's off to all the mothers here that stand by their sons, especially those that have to go that extra step of convincing the fathers.
Oh, Bm31!
Anyone who wants to have their ds circ'ed ought to read your post first. Maybe it would open their eyes. Thank you for posting.
Frankly Speaking's Avatar Frankly Speaking 11:30 AM 09-15-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bm31
I recalled another little in-office procedure the urologist (that did the re-circ...and badly botched it) did was for meatal stenosis....I now know was caused by the circ.
I suspect there are many men out there that had the procedure and have never made the connection. As a matter of fact, I also suspect that there are many more complications and poorly done jobs that are not recognized because unless they are gay, men just don't have the opportunity to inspect other men's penises to know what is normal and what is botched. We have had many women here tell of men with botched penises. The women had the opportunity to inspect and compare and recognized the defective and poor workmanship and the men had no idea.



Quote:
next to no sensation left after all their meddling....
You may want to look into foreskin restoration. It's a non-surgical process that can be done with no medical intervention at all and can restore a good bit of the natural sensitivity. With the lack of sensation you now have, you are at great risk of developing erectile dysfunction and impotence and foreskin restoration can push it back or eliminate it all together. This is something I have first hand experience with and can tell you without equivocation that it works and works well. I suspect your lover will also appreciate it as well.


Quote:
I blindly thought circ was a must-do thing....
That's a common misconception. Many men your age and older were circumcised without parental consent and even often against the parents express wishes. In that environment, it was logical for them to assume that circumcision was an absolute "must do." Of course, those parents told other parents who told other parents and to this day, there are some in the older generations who believe that circumcision is not an option but a must do.


Quote:
and that I just had a defective penis that caused problems. I now realize it was the circ that caused the problems to begin with.
I suspect there are legions of men just like you, blaming the problems on their own bodies instead of the medical profession that foisted this on us. However, we are awakening to the truth. One doctor has warned that this issue may make the largest class action suit to ever hit this country. Personally, I'd love to see it!



Frank
Bm31's Avatar Bm31 01:07 AM 09-16-2005
Thanks njeb! I really admire you for respecting your sons genitals for both the time and place you were coming from. My mother doesn't remember giving explicit consent, just that it was pretty much assumed that you had to do it. Plus, we're practically neighbors; I live in IL on the border with Iowa and know how horribly it's still ingrained in people's minds in this area.

Frank, I totally agree with everthing you're saying. But as far as foreskin restoration goes, I don't think it would be possible for me. Without getting into too much detail, everything I've been able to piece together would suggest reconstructive surgery just to make enough shaft skin to have a "normal" circ'd penis....let alone finding enough extra for foreskin restoration. There's no way I'll give them a third shot at me. I don't have a lover; it's something I've learned to forgo in this lifetime. It's my only hope that parents will stop doing this to their sons. For all the ones that go "fine," it's going to be somebody else's son that eventually gets the botched job. Until this society gets over it's desire to meddle with their son's genitals, it WILL happen to others, and as far as I'm concerned everyone, medical community and otherwise, that promotes and perpetuates it will be responsible for it. I used to think....if only the dr. had done it "right" the first time. But I've come to realize how true your signature quote is. NOBODY had any right to make this "choice" about my body.
polarbear's Avatar polarbear 10:15 AM 09-16-2005
BM31, just a point of clarification on Franks mention of Foreskin Restoration. It is not surgery and no skin cutting is involved. It is the process of slowly stretching your existing skin to create either a simulated (permanent) foreskin, of just looser skin. Similar to the long necks in Africa, the large disks in the lips, or the current trend in youth of the 1/2" through-hole earings (or maybe that's just here in Toronto). It can take years of patient stretching, but can be used to treat tight and/or uneven circumcisions, or just for the increased sensation that a protected glans offers. Any man with a visible penis shaft can restore using soem of the various techniques. Do an Internet search for Foreskin Restoration and you will find tons of info. Good Luck!
Frankly Speaking's Avatar Frankly Speaking 11:07 AM 09-16-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bm31
Frank, I totally agree with everthing you're saying. But as far as foreskin restoration goes, I don't think it would be possible for me. Without getting into too much detail, everything I've been able to piece together would suggest reconstructive surgery just to make enough shaft skin to have a "normal" circ'd penis....
There is a surgical repair that uses skin from the scrotum but it doesn't give a good cosmetic result, is horrendously expensive and is rarely done. What the vast majority of men do is a "do-it-yourself" method that typically uses tape and weights or elastic. This is the method I used. Like you, I had an extremely tight circumcision and on erection, the skin would be pulled so tightly that it would become slick and shiny. The coronal groove just under the glans would be pulled practically flat so that there was no ridge at the edge of the glans. The manual restoration process does not require skin from another part of the body but instead, permanently stretches the skin that is already there to fashion a foreskin covering for the glans. Think of the people who permanently stretch their earlobes and you'll get the idea.



Quote:
I don't have a lover; it's something I've learned to forgo in this lifetime.
That's really sad but there is hope. Non-surgical foreskin restoration also restores a significant amount of sensitivity. It's pretty amazing really and this may be a solution to your problem. I certainly hope so.


Quote:
It's my only hope that parents will stop doing this to their sons. For all the ones that go "fine," it's going to be somebody else's son that eventually gets the botched job. Until this society gets over it's desire to meddle with their son's genitals, it WILL happen to others, and as far as I'm concerned everyone, medical community and otherwise, that promotes and perpetuates it will be responsible for it. I used to think....if only the dr. had done it "right" the first time. But I've come to realize how true your signature quote is. NOBODY had any right to make this "choice" about my body.
I think every doctor that does this should be confronted by a group of very angry men in a dark alley and given a very strong warning. A warning from Dr. Dennis Kendal of the College of Physicians and Surgeons/Saskatchewan about the financial liability they risk has made a significant impact on Canadian doctors. If only someone in a high place in the US medical establishment would do the same!



Frank
njeb's Avatar njeb 11:30 AM 09-16-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bm31
Thanks njeb! I really admire you for respecting your sons genitals for both the time and place you were coming from. My mother doesn't remember giving explicit consent, just that it was pretty much assumed that you had to do it. Plus, we're practically neighbors; I live in IL on the border with Iowa and know how horribly it's still ingrained in people's minds in this area.
Awwww shucks! : Thanks!
Actually, the reason my sons, who were born in 1979 and 1987, were spared the procedure is that I had very savvy midwives who informed me that circ. wasn't necessary. I was especially impressed by my Jewish midwife, who had a son in 1978 and left him intact. It was almost unheard of in that time and place for a Jew not to circ. I figured if she could leave her son alone, then so could I.
You can also thank my brother. When I was a teenager, we were talking about circ. once and I asked him if he was. He said no, and that he was glad he wasn't. That conversation stuck with me over the years, and when I had my ds 8 years later, I decided against it. Thanks, big brother!
He was born in 1945, so I'm surprised he wasn't circ'ed. We are from a rural area, however. I suspect that rural areas were the last to start circ'ing their babies. Unfortunately, they will also be the last to stop circ'ing, too, as you know from your experience. You are totally right about it being so ingrained in Rural Iowa and Illinois.
Bm31's Avatar Bm31 03:06 PM 09-19-2005
Frank and polarbear, I appreciate your further information but I wasn't under the impression that foreskin restoration was surgical. My recirc was beyond just "tight." In my research I've come across the terms "denuding the shaft" and "trapped penis." I'm pretty sure that's what happened to me and from what I've seen on some of these boards it doesn't sound that uncommon after a 2nd (in one case I read, a 3rd!!) circ. I would say I have less than a 1/2 inch of original shaft skin; the remainder is pulled from my groin during erection. My research has indicated the only remedy for this would be reconstructive surgery, and I won't put myself through that at this point. Beyond that, probably better than 3/4 the ridge of my glans was destroyed by the constant adhesions and reseparations prior to the 2nd circ. And much like you, Frank, what's left there is pulled mostly flat by the tightness during an erection. And I haven't seen anything promising about reconstructing a glans. Anyone who thinks it would be embarrassing for their son to have a foreskin in a locker room also ought to think about how fun it would be for them to show a botched circ off in one.

Sadly, if I thought these types of complications were a thing of the past I'd probably just keep my mouth shut....as has been implied I should by the many who promote circ. I'm just a "rare statistic." I have to admit I haven't been a very good intactivist and am not one to start circ conversations. However, just in the last couple of years I've known parents and grandparents that have casually mentioned their boys "having" to be re-circ'ed, and it's amazing how they accept it as a "normal" and necessary byproduct of this procedure. One child was redone at 1, another at 5, and another at 11. I work with the mother of the 11 year old and she was almost giggling when she casually mentioned it one day. She was totally taken aback when I asked her why she had it done in the first place. I was totally taken aback when her only response was, "Weren't you done?" Like that alone was enough good reason to visit this horror on another generation.

njeb, I'm afraid you're probably right about our area being the last to give it up. I've often heard that that trends start on the coasts and reach the midwest last. The current regional circ rates would seem to indicate that is what will happen. Let's hope it doesn't take too long.
TigerTail's Avatar TigerTail 02:56 PM 09-21-2005
bm31, hugs. i'm sorry your experience was so, well, screwed.

i just wanted to mention that the voluntarily celibate deserve functioning, pleasurable genitals as well, & should you attempt restoration, it's worth it for your own sake, not just that of a suppositional lover.

it's experiences like yours that make me angry enough to forcefully challenge the status quo. being brave enough to share your dilemma is great intactivism in itself. thank you.

susan
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