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#1 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi everyone.

Let me state my position.
My wife is pregnant, and our baby is due in March. We find the sex of the child out with an ultrasound next month (Oct. 10th to be exact.)

I knew we were going to have an argument whether it was a boy or a girl. If it is a girl, we were going to have an argument about piercing our infants ears (my wife wanted to, and I want to wait until she would be old enough to ask me. I've already won that argument. )

A much bigger argument is brewing should we find out next month that we are having a boy. My wife is dead-set on getting him circumcised. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I vehemently want our son to be left intact.

I need no more convincing. For what it's worth, I'm 29 and of course am circumcised.

Not helping matters is her OBGYN told her that he sees a lot of women that claim to get infections because of their intact boyfriends. Also, she has a couple of cousins that were circumcised around the age of 10 because of "infections." I suspect they were circumcised when something simpler would have taken care of the problem.

Isn't it usually the other way around - with the father wanting a circumcision and a mother not wanting it?

My biggest question is this: what happens if it gets to be time for the circumcision, and I as the father ORDER the physician not to go through with it? I would think that if the parents are split, that the physician would have to leave it intact. It's not like the process can be undone.
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#2 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 01:12 PM
 
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Hi there! Just wanted to tell you how refreshing it is to hear from a Dad who wants to protect his son and leave him intact! It really is usually the other way around in my experience.

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what happens if it gets to be time for the circumcision, and I as the father ORDER the physician not to go through with it? I would think that if the parents are split, that the physician would have to leave it intact. It's not like the process can be undone.
I wonder this myself- it would seem that both parents would need to consent. I'm sure someone on here will know the specifics.

I got the whole "infection" load of BS from family members too- but I must say- having been with intact men, it seemed silly, I've never had an infection from any of them. I did get UTI's all the time with some of my circ'ed boyfriends though either way, infections are easily cured by antibiotics or antifungals (and then probiotics to keep them from recuring!)...circ'ing due to infections is like telling me that because I used to get frequent UTI's that I should have my labia removed- it's ridiculous.


Quote:
her OBGYN told her that he sees a lot of women that claim to get infections because of their intact boyfriends.
key word- they CLAIM it's because of their intact boyfriends- they don't know- they just blame it on that.

Have you shared your feelings with her about being circ'ed yourself- like that you wished it had been your choice and you don't want your son to feel like a choice was made about his body without his consent?

At the very least, if she so adamantly wants it done tell her that you both have to research it together and sit down at the computer and show her some of the links in the sticky's at the top of this forum- make her watch a video of a baby being circed and see if she still wants that for her precious baby son.

Good luck to you!

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#3 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 01:26 PM
 
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There is no medical reason to circumcise.

Phimosis
Phimosis is wrongly diagnosed most of the time. It CANNOT be diagnosed in an infant or child below the age of 5, because the foreskin is SUPPOSED to be fused to the glans. Separation may not occur until after puberty.

Anyone advocating circumcising a child under the age of 5 because of phimosis has another agenda.

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/...w10610_fm.html

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...full/102/4/e43

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...068&query_hl=1
"group II comprised 50 children who would be treated with a topical corticosteroid (0.05% bethamethasone cream) twice daily for 1 month"
"RESULTS: In group II, 16 of the 50 children had non-retractable prepuce. Forty-two cases of phimosis were corrected after treatment. Eight patients received further monthly treatment and five benefited from the second course of treatment."
"CONCLUSION: Topical steroids for the treatment of phimosis is a highly effective treatment alternative to surgery. It avoids or delays circumcision and can be practised during the phallic period to decrease castration anxiety. The treatment is suitable for patients from any religious or cultural background."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...339&query_hl=1
"CONCLUSIONS: Dorsal relieving incision operation was found to be a less invasive, safe and effective procedure for non-retractile foreskin not affected by extensive secondary scarring. This technique has fewer complications in comparison to circumcision and can be performed as an ambulatory procedure."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...955&query_hl=1
"There exists a lack of understanding of normal preputial development which is reflected in the large numbers of inappropriate referrals for circumcision."

True phimosis, in an older (post pubescent) boy can normally be treated using non-surgical means, and is, where the doctors aren't determined to cut the foreskin off at the first hint of trouble!
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l/321/7264/792

Oh, and somehow, circumcised boys get it too. (Yes, work that one out, wrong diagnosis much?).

http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/blalock1/

Balanitis xerotica obliterans is now known as lichen sclerosis - and mostly affects women. The treatment for men suffering from this condition is the same.
http://www.lichensclerosus.org/guidelines.pdf


Candida albicans infection - is the same infection that causes yeast or thrush in women. It is treated in exactly the same way.

Penile cancer
" In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.

For example, some recent studies suggest that circumcised men tend to have certain other lifestyle factors associated with lower penile cancer risk: they are less likely to have many sexual partners, less likely to smoke, and more likely to have better personal hygiene habits. Most public health researchers believe that the penile cancer risk among uncircumcised men without known risk factors living in the United States is extremely low. The current consensus of most experts is that circumcision should not be recommended as a prevention strategy for penile cancer. "

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp

It is an EXTREMELY rare cancer. 0.2% of cancers.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...5.asp?rnav=cri

A man has more chance of dying of breast cancer. 0.22% of cancers.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...8.asp?rnav=cri

I don't notice anyone promoting preventative chest surgery for men....

"About 95% of penile cancers develop from flat skin cells called squamous cells. Penile tumors tend to grow slowly. If they are found at an early stage, these tumors can usually be cured.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...5.asp?rnav=cri

If it is found early it can be removed easily, with little damage to the penis.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...5.asp?rnav=cri


What I don't understand here is why anyone would want to amputate a body part from a boy, when there are adequate non-surgical treatments available.

Plus, I'm sorry, but I don't believe that OBGYN. The intact rate for adult men at the moment is somewhere between 10 and 20% - and it isn't possible for all these women to be getting infections from their partners, there simply aren't that many intact adult men around to be doing it.

Recurrent infections in women are distressingly common, I for instance am someone who gets recurrent yeast (thrush), I had my first attack when I was 14 (nothing whatever to do with sex or any partner), and every time I have antibiotics or get stressed, I know I'm going to have to get the fungicide out again.

The chances are that these women have recurrent yeast as I do, and they're blaming their partners for the outbreaks. It may also be that they may have infected their partners, and they're passing the infection backwards and forwards (which does happen - both to circ'd and intact men), in which case the simple answer is to treat the both of them at the same time and the problem goes away.

Circumcision is not the answer to anything.
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#4 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 01:41 PM
 
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I just have to say that I let my doctor, mother, father and husband talk me into my sons circumcision and I feel so very ashamed of my self now. I knew in my heart what was right but I left my self be persuaded. If you really feel that leaving your son intact is right then stand your ground. Best wishes!
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#5 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 01:44 PM
 
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From reading here it does seem like it is usually the dads that push for the circumcision. My husband has always wanted to leave our boys intact even though he is circed so you are not alone. I'd actually left the decision to him when we were pregnant with our first and he decided against it. It's so nice to see other dads wanting to do the same for their children.

I think only the mother's signature is required for a circ but I really can't imagine that any responsible doctor is going to perform one if he/she knows that the father is opposed to the procedure. You've still got several months to prepare. You could get a lot of good information together to show to your wife in that time. The current issue of Mothering has 2 circumcision articles in it that are very good. You could also get on DVD either Whose Body, Whose Rights? (I think this is available from noharmm.org) or Penn and Teller's Bullshit Circumcision episode (if you don't get Showtime it's available on ebay). There are online videos of babies being circed you could show her.

I don't get the attraction to piercing an infant girls ears. Whenever I see a baby with her ears pierced I don't think it's cute, I just think of how much it must have hurt the baby to have that done. I've got 3 girls and none of them have any holes in their ears. I haven't decided how old they will have to be to have it done yet but I'm thinking at least 10-12 right now.

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#6 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 03:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kisagotami
I just have to say that I let my doctor, mother, father and husband talk me into my sons circumcision and I feel so very ashamed of my self now. I knew in my heart what was right but I left my self be persuaded. If you really feel that leaving your son intact is right then stand your ground. Best wishes!
Don't beat yourself up, kisagotami. A post-partum mother, hormones out of whack and most likely in a state of exhaustion not to mention possibly pain is in a vulnerable state. You were taken advantage of by those who should have supported you. :

Instead of turning the wrong inward, turn it to those who pressured you. Discuss it with them, educate them, yell and scream if need be to get them to understand...

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#7 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 03:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericisbacchus
A much bigger argument is brewing should we find out next month that we are having a boy. My wife is dead-set on getting him circumcised. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I vehemently want our son to be left intact.

I need no more convincing. For what it's worth, I'm 29 and of course am circumcised.

Not helping matters is her OBGYN told her that he sees a lot of women that claim to get infections because of their intact boyfriends. Also, she has a couple of cousins that were circumcised around the age of 10 because of "infections." I suspect they were circumcised when something simpler would have taken care of the problem.
Eric-Welcome to the board. It's nice to see a dad for a change.

I have a couple ideas for you:

I don't know if you have tried to educate her on the subject or not but try to turn this to logic. Lovingly tell her how intelligent she is and ask her to think about the fact that 80-85% of men in this world are intact. Many I'm sure without the hygienic bathroom facilities we have in the US. If infections in women were connected with foreskin, does she really think this many men would be intact world wide? Wouldn't women be either refusing to have sex or screaming their heads off in favor for circumcision around the globe?

Also, why would foreskins in this country be more problematic than foreskins in the rest of the world? Could it maybe be something OTHER THAN the foreskin? Like doctors giving improper advise, perhaps. Tell her the circumcision rate in Scandinavia, Russia, China, India, Japan, All of Europe is miniscule.

Tell her it WILL NOT happen unless she can provide you with compelling medical reseach, complete with studies, etc. before you will ever consider this for you son. Period.

(She won't be able to and that will be the end of it!)

Good luck to you!
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#8 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 04:12 PM
 
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ask her if she would remove the labia of her daughter at birth because it helps prevent yeast infections. She will undoubtly say 'no' then ask her why is okay to do it to a boy.
Perhaps you should also look into the sexual side effects of circumsion. Its not just a flap of skin, it serves not only as a protective covering but also is rich in nerve endings.

I'd write more but my little guy is hungry

Mom of a 7 yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old. Wow. How did that happen?
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#9 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 06:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericisbacchus
Hi everyone.

Let me state my position.
My wife is pregnant, and our baby is due in March. We find the sex of the child out with an ultrasound next month (Oct. 10th to be exact.)

I knew we were going to have an argument whether it was a boy or a girl. If it is a girl, we were going to have an argument about piercing our infants ears (my wife wanted to, and I want to wait until she would be old enough to ask me. I've already won that argument. )

A much bigger argument is brewing should we find out next month that we are having a boy. My wife is dead-set on getting him circumcised. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I vehemently want our son to be left intact.

I need no more convincing. For what it's worth, I'm 29 and of course am circumcised.

Not helping matters is her OBGYN told her that he sees a lot of women that claim to get infections because of their intact boyfriends. Also, she has a couple of cousins that were circumcised around the age of 10 because of "infections." I suspect they were circumcised when something simpler would have taken care of the problem.

Isn't it usually the other way around - with the father wanting a circumcision and a mother not wanting it?

My biggest question is this: what happens if it gets to be time for the circumcision, and I as the father ORDER the physician not to go through with it? I would think that if the parents are split, that the physician would have to leave it intact. It's not like the process can be undone.
Hello and Welcome! Congratulations on the upcoming birth of your baby!
Yes, on this board it's usually the mother who's anti-circ. and the father is pro-circ. But then, we have a lot more mothers than fathers on this board, so that might skew things a bit.
Unfortunately, there have been instances on this board of a baby being circ'ed against the wishes of one of the parents, but it's always been the father going being the mother's back, not vice-versa. That's why it's so important that you and your dw be on the same page on this issue. There are doctors out there who are so unethical that they will circ. at the slightest provocation. If one parent says yes, he/she won't bother to find out if the other parent wants to circ. or not but will just go ahead and do it. I am worried by your dw's OB/GYN. He sounds circ. happy. You may want to get a different doctor. Better yet, get a midwife, if that's an option for you. They tend to be more anti-circ. than doctors.
Good luck!
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#10 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 09:40 PM
 
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I just wanted to add a few things. I can't give you an answer, but I can give you a few ideas hopefully.

Ask your OB if circumcision is beneficial and in what way. If they can give you real reasons then you will know they are lying. Read the facts (all over the circ board) and be prepared to call her on her lies.

Your child could actually sue you for a surgical non-consent prior to age 21, so legally, it is a risk...and they could win big bucks (well into the tens of thousands...there are documented cases.)

Circumcision is losing ground quickly and by the time he is a teen, it will be hopefully rare. It is currently in the slight minority. Thus, it is out of style.

Talk to your lawyer about your legal rights as a father, you do have some and an injuction at the prime moment will stop the procedure in its tracks. You don't have to let your wife know, just present it and deal with the fallout later. I would do this in a second and it is not a testament that you don't love your wife, but rather, that you DO love your child. (I do feel it is that important, too.)

It can always be done later, if your son chooses to have it done and makes the decision with informed consent. If he finds that he gives women infections (total bull) then he can choose it later...(fat chance that would happen.) But the option is not your, it is his...it is also not the mother's decision...it belongs to the child solely and that child cannot give consent.

Why, please tell me, does your wife care about how her son's penis looks? She won't be looking at it past about age 4, so honestly, why does she or any doctor care? She needs to see a circumcision. The whole thing. It is BRUTAL! You can find the vid on the net. Sit her down and MAKE her watch it, that normally does it. If she can't sit there and watch it, then she shouldn't even consider it.

Lastly, you have a PM!

Thanks for caring so much. You will make a good father. Parenting starts by making the decisions that are int he best interest of your child.
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#11 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 09:45 PM
 
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Hi and welcome to the forum!


Quote:
Originally Posted by ericisbacchus
A much bigger argument is brewing should we find out next month that we are having a boy. My wife is dead-set on getting him circumcised. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I vehemently want our son to be left intact.

I need no more convincing. For what it's worth, I'm 29 and of course am circumcised.
For some reason, in this country, the one that wants to keep their child intact is generally the one that is put on the defensive and it should not be that way. The justification for imposing non-beneficial and cosmetic surgery on a child should be the responsibility of the one who is seeking it, not the one who does not want it done. You are on the defensive and it is your wife that should be defending her choice. You can change the situation by just telling her that if she can present compelling medical justification for it, you will agree. She will not be able to do this. At it's last meeting, the American Academy of Pediatrics Taskforce on Circumcision reviewed 671 research projects and came to the conclusion that the risks outweighed any potential but unproven benefits. She will do no better than the AAP. I can promise you that.


Quote:
Not helping matters is her OBGYN told her that he sees a lot of women that claim to get infections because of their intact boyfriends.
Well, we have to ask here where the infection started. Did it start with the woman who infected the man or the other way around? Women have a different genital chemistry that predisposes them to genital infections, wo where did the infections start in the first place? How is it that the indians in remote rain forests in South America with no medical care survive these infections? In reality, the incidence and seriousness of these infections are way overblown and exaggerated. They simply don't happen or male circumcision would be far more widespread than it is.



Quote:
Also, she has a couple of cousins that were circumcised around the age of 10 because of "infections." I suspect they were circumcised when something simpler would have taken care of the problem.
Reason and logic can drive people crazy when they come up with this garbage. The exact same bacteria and fungi that would affect men will also affect women and would be more difficult to cure in women because of the different vaginal chemistry. Yet, amazingly, these women respond quite well to medication. Why wouldn't these same medications work equally well for men? The truth is that they will. However, surgery pays far better than writing a prescription. Amputation of female parts would not be acceptable treatment for girls in lieu of a medicinal cream but it seems that the amputation of male parts is the only effective treatment for the same bio-organisms. That simply makes no sense at all. Males get genital infections at a far lower rate than females and the infectious organisms are exactly the same, usually either staph or a fungal and the medications will work equally well for either sex.


Quote:
Isn't it usually the other way around - with the father wanting a circumcision and a mother not wanting it?
It would seem that way but usually fathers don't come to this board so we don't see their resistance to the extent that we do from mothers. I suspect it is pretty much equal.


Quote:
My biggest question is this: what happens if it gets to be time for the circumcision, and I as the father ORDER the physician not to go through with it? I would think that if the parents are split, that the physician would have to leave it intact. It's not like the process can be undone.
This should be a concern! Most doctors will not perform a circumcision when there is a conflict with the parents but there are some who will regardless of how much one parent doesn't want it. You also have to realize that your wife's OB/GYN may not be the one to do it. Often, interns do the circumcisions especially at large hospitals and the nurses change shifts so that you may tell 3 on one shift and another shift comes on board. This new shift could present the consent forms to your wife who signs them and then takes the child to the circumcision room to be circumcised by an intern. You also run the risk that the child could be taken home and then circumcised by a pediatrician two weeks later. I know one case in real life where this happened. In most places, it only takes the consent of one parent.

While it is important that you stay with the baby the entire time he is at the hospital, it is far more important that you get your wife on the same page with you so that there are no mix-ups or deceptions anywhere along the line. There are a variety that wives use to make sure that the father doesn't consent to the circumcision such as stickers for diapers and writing with a red felt tip marker on the baby's chart "NO CIRCUMCISION." You may want to try these but ultimately, your wife can still take him to a pediatricians office a few weeks later to have it done while you are at work. This is really something that you need to work out with her and convince her by whatever means that it is not to be done.




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#12 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 09:47 PM
 
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Check out the links in my signature - the foreskin is a crucial part of the penis and removing it removes 50% of the erogeneous tissue of the penis. Also, go pick up a copy of this month's Mothering magazine, on newsstands now - there are a couple of great articles on circumcision.

Also, ask your wife whether it would be OK to cut off any part of a girl's genitals for any reasons. Has she ever had a yeast infection or a UTI? (Way more common in girls than boys.) Would she be willing to have any part of her genitals surgically removed to prevent a yeast infection or UTI? How about just her labia? No? The labia are far, far less nerve-rich than the foreskin.

Another possible tack, depending on her beliefs - is she pro-choice? If so, is it because she believes "my body, my life, my right to decide?" Same thing here - her baby has a right to determine what happens to his body. NO ONE has the right to perform cosmetic surgery on a baby for no reason.

I wrote a long post in another thread on this issue and I'm lazy so I'm going to cut and paste - definitely check out the links comparing male and female cutting.

Quote:
I just wanted to comment on the female vs. male circ thing....it is actually the same thing, whether you cut a boy or you cut a girl. Now, yes, there are differences in the conditions - many African girls get cut out in the bush with rusty knives as opposed to in the hospital with better (but not sterile) conditions, so there are a lot more complications from infection, etc. Also, some cultures use dung and other gross substances to "promote" healing so that's not going to be very helpful.

Many of us here in the US believe that all female genital cuttings are the most severe kind where they take off the clitoris and all the external genitalia and sew the wound shut, leaving only a small opening. This is the most severe form, Type IV or Pharonic circumcision, as it's called. It's actually the least common type. Much more common (80% or so) is the Type I or Sunna circumcision, that takes off part or all of the external clitoris (the clitoris is much more than just the bud on the outside, it's also internal on either side of the vulva).

Women who are cut report having orgasms and are satisfied with their sex lives - even those who experience the worst form of cutting. (Run a google search on Hanny Lightfoot-Klein). Now, I'm guessing you have all your genitals intact and react with horror to the idea of losing ANY part of them, because all the bits are important. But for women from a cutting culture, they say the same things that circed men say here in the US - "I'm fine, my sex life is great, how could it be better, it's cleaner being cut, " etc. There's this myth that female circ destroys ALL of a woman's ability to experience sexual pleasure, and that's just not true. But you as an intact woman know that they have to be missing out on something if they don't have their full clitoris, for example.

Male circumcision destroys half of the erogeneous tissue of the penis. Does it take away all sexual pleasure? No, obviously not. (Unless you are one of the small percentage of boys whose circumcisions result in death or permanent disfigurement, loss of the head of the penis or the entire penis, for example. Relatively rare but happens. ) But if you remove half the nerve endings of the penis, it's gonna reduce sexual pleasure, just as if you cut away half or all of the clitoris.

So that's why male and female circ are really the same thing - they are about reducing sexual pleasure (why circ was introduced in this country, and why it continues in Africa) and removing tissue in the name of "cleanliness." They don't destroy all sexual pleasure but they destroy a good part of it. Whether you believe in God or in evolution - either God designed the human body and didn't make any mistakes, or nature did - but all the parts are there for a reason and cutting them away makes a big difference.

Here are a couple of links that discuss the similarities between female and male genital cutting: http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html
http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.html

You should pick up a copy of this month's Mothering magazine. It has a great pair of articles on circumcision. You should also visit http://research.cirp.org, which explains a lot more about the structure and function of the foreskin.

I actually think that the term "foreskin" itself is really problematic - it implies that it's somehow separate and apart from the penis, just "bonus skin" or something. The site I just posted the link to and the Mothering illustrations really get the point across that the foreskin is an integral part of the penis as a whole, not just some extra bit like the appendix.

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#13 of 156 Old 09-18-2005, 10:03 PM
 
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Circumcision does not prevent UTI nor does it prevent yeast infections.

I am sadly cird'd and I have a history of UTIs and I even currently have a yeast infection (I was on antibiotics and it flared up and then I gave it to DW without know it.. )

All that infection stuff is BS! I am living proof!

My brother (intact) has never had a single UTI nor yeast infection. Go figure.
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#14 of 156 Old 09-19-2005, 12:11 AM
 
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Welcome to the board!

I'd suggest you have her read the sticky thread at the top of the forum from mothers who regret circing their sons.

"To err is human, to forgive, canine." - Unknown
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#15 of 156 Old 09-19-2005, 12:41 AM
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I think only the mother's signature is required for a circ but I really can't imagine that any responsible doctor is going to perform one if he/she knows that the father is opposed to the procedure.
Yeah, you only need the mom to consent. The dad can be standing there screaming NO DON'T DO IT but as long as they have the moms consent, they legally can still do it .

However, talk to your partner. Tell her how it makes you feel to be circumcised, tell her how it would make you feel to have a circumcised son, and ask her for one good reason to do it. You'll be able to shoot every single one of them down.

Long distance Mom to boarding school superstars E (9) and Layne (6).
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#16 of 156 Old 09-19-2005, 01:46 AM
 
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Hi! Welcome to boards.

I'm going to ditto everything everyone said and also add you should remind your wife that your son's penis belongs to him and that she has no right (well, legally she does but ethnically and morally she doesn't) to change it in any way. Tell her that when he turns 18 you will give him the choice and even pay for the surgery. Until then, however, he is keeping his entire penis and that's final.

My husband was the one who introduced the idea of keeping our son intact to me. I barely even knew circumcision existed before then. I'm 25 so every naked adult man I've seen has been circumcised. It seemed normal to me until I was pregnant. Now I'm such an intactivist I drive people insane.

By the way, this is just my opinion but I would have left my husband in a heartbeat if he had insisted on having our son circumcised, and he would have done the same to me. No matter how much I love him I could never, ever, let anyone harm my son in such a profound way.

~Nay

Reneé, 34 year old mom to Antonin 8/04 and Arianna 9/06  (6 weeks) 5/08. Married to Matt since 6/03 .  
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#17 of 156 Old 09-19-2005, 03:01 AM
 
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Welcome! First- have your wife show you research that shows why it should be done (then shoot down anything she finds) Second make her watch a video of the process. Third- tell EVERY dr. you have contact with that if your child is circed you will SUE. That should make them think twice at least.

good luck!

-Angela
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#18 of 156 Old 09-19-2005, 04:22 AM
 
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#19 of 156 Old 09-19-2005, 10:35 AM
 
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You are not alone. I am a 31 year old circumcised father of a 6 week old (intact) baby boy. During the pregnancy, my wife was adamant that we would circumcise our son. I was just as adamant that we would not. We argued, we screamed, we cried. In the end, he came home whole. I cannot advise you on how to get her to see the light, but I can give you some topics we covered:

- I have found that most women DO NOT equate male circumcision with the brutal, barbaric practice of female circumcision. Whether it is the complete removal of the clitoris, and destroying the surrounding tissue, or the (direct equivalent) of removing the clitoral hood and inner labia, the women I have talked to consider it all to be under the same umbrella. Use this point with caution.

- She will probably have to overcome all the teenage gossip she heard as a kid, and all the reinforcement of the ‘OOOO GROSS’ stereotype from shows like Sin And the City or Niptuck. Its hard to argue with (irrational / unfounded) feelings.

- When referencing statistics, learn from all the various websites concerning circumcision, but only use references from reputable sources. Do not point her to websites that are obviously anti-circumcision in nature. The may roll her eyes, and wonder why she should take anything seriously from a bunch of crackpots. It may be seen as about as valuable as giving info about the cousin of a friend of a guy your brother once knew in the army… This is not constructive unless they are agreeing with a point you already believe (your OBGYN reference). Try to find the original text from the original source for all your references. Without inundating you with info, here are some of the best: (The first one is factual and awesome)
Canadian Pediatric Society: www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm
American Academy of Pediatrics - Care for the Uncircumcised Penis: http://www.medem.com/search/article...h_typ=NAV_SERCH
The Royal Australasian College of Physicians (Former Australian College of Paediatrics): http://www.racp.edu.au/hpu/paed/cir...ion/anatomy.htm

- Realize that she will probably have a lot of pressure from her family / friends / work associates etc… who may (ignorantly) reinforce and perpetuate the myths. She may not want to go against what she feels if the status-quo Knowledge is what fights ignorance.

- Your wife will absolutely believe she is working to keep her kids from harm, and may resent being questioned. Again as another poster wrote: Those who know better, do better.

- Although I also don’t believe in ear piecing of children, you may choose to concede that to keep your son whole. (Lesser of two evils).

- Please keep in mind that NO medical association IN THE WORLD recommends routine circumcision to prevent ANYTHING. Not cancer, not AIDS, not urinary tract infections, not STD’s, not premature ejaculation, not phimosis, not anything. Reducing the likelihood is not a cure, and is not particularly important when the incidences are very low (i.e. penile cancer)

- You may want to take it easy until you know the sex of the baby. My wife got to the point where she was wishing that it was a girl just so that we would not argue anymore.

Good luck. There are other men out there who also want to protect their children. You are not alone in your fight.
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#20 of 156 Old 09-19-2005, 11:37 AM
 
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You've gotten a lot of great information here, and I sure hope that some of it will be helpful. The truth is that YOU do not have any rights when it comes to this decision in the hospital. They *must* have the mother's consent but your opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the hospital Sorry.

I actually found out a great deal about this when I was PG with our 3rd child. We'd had our first son, our oldest, circ'd at the advice of our pediatrician and OB. We didn't do the research, we didn't look into it, we just said "Okay if you say so" and that was that. Our bad.

When we got PG with #2 we found out we were having a girl and so of course nothing to worry about. We did have the ears piercing discussion too though. I'm Cuban and it is a cultural thing.

Then when I got PG with #3 we were told that we were having a boy. At that point I decided to do research and look into circumcision more. With the research I did I became adamantly anti-circ and told DH that I would not circ our son. DH didn't agree at that time and said "it needed to be done" and even argued that since our oldest DS was circ'd as is he it was "important to do it." I totally disagreed with him but gently and persistently, with love, gave him information slowly and in a non-threatening way. I would print something out and then just casually hand it to him and say "Oh I was reading this today and thought you might find it interesting." Fortuantely my DH is a great guy and wasn't upset or saw this as picking a fight or anything and would read what I gave him. We then came to find out, very very late in the pregnancy, that SURPRISE we weren't having a boy, it was a girl!!! WOW!! Our biggest problem then became finding a name in a very short period of time for this baby GIRL we were having - we figured she wouldn't be really happy with Seth Patrick after all

By the time that baby was born I would say that DH was still not completely convinced but he was coming around. What was interesting was that when we went to the hospital to have our baby the nurses asked me if he was a boy would we be circumcising him. I told them uncatagorically that we were having a GIRL and that I didn't need to worry about that. They persisted (all while I'm in labor mind you!!) that I *had* to answer the question and make a decision about that right then and there. I kept insisting that we were having a GIRL and to just get rid of the consent form. They continued as well and told me they HAD to have an answer. Finally I SHOUTED, at this very rude nurse, that if they need MY signature for a circ they weren't going to get it. She said to me "Does that mean you don't want it done?" I told her that was the case and they would certainly never get my signature on that peice of paper. At that point DH stepped in and asked that if it was going to be a boy could HE sign the consent form and get it? Not that he would hav done that but I think he asked out of curiosity. He wouldn't do something like that w/o my consent and I know that. The nurse told him that he has absolutely ZERO rights where the baby is concerned until AFTER baby is discharged from the hospital, it has to be the mother's signature. DH was kind of annoyed by this but on priciple more than anything else. This nurse, who also read me the riot act of why circ is so great and I should do it and I would be doing an injustice to my son if I didn't (all the time I'm still in labor of course!), then consoled my DH by telling him.... (no joke)... "Well, the minute you walk out of this hospital with that baby you can just go over to the urologist and get it done right away and you won't need HER signature or approval to get it done." I was just aghast and so PO'd I can't even tell you. I mean this woman was standing here telling my DH to take our baby and get a surgical procedure done on him completely against my wishes. I was furious. Once I left the hospital I wrote them a VERY nasty letter of complaint, specifically naming the nurse, and filed a complaint with my insurance co. against the hospital as well.

Anyway, we did have a girl and she, of course, wasn't circ'd Four years later we went on to have another son and by that point my DH had become as anti-circ as I was. We had the u/s that told us we were having a boy and we never even discussed it because we both knew that we wouldn't do it. After he was born and his Dr. was checking on him she mentioned something about "oh and after his circ..." and I interupted her and said "He won't be having one." This Dr. actually got misty eyed, walked over to me and gave me a big hug and said "You've made a wonderful decision!" It was a great moment for me My OB actually had a similar reaction when we told her and told us what a "wonderful and INFORMED decision" we were making. The attitude at the very same hospital only 4 years later was so incredibly different.

Oh and we have #5 now, also a boy and also intact

Anyway, sorry to share this long drawn out story but I think the sad fact is that if your wife signs the paper then it will be done, regardless of your opinon on the matter IMO that's wrong and it stinks but most likely that's the policy of the hospital. My best advice is to gently discuss it with her at length and give her the space and time she needs to come around on her own. I know with my DH the best thing I can do is give him information and then give him space so that he can come to his own conclusions w/o feeling like I'm pushing him.

Good luck to you and I hope that your wife does eventually come around.

~ Patti
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#21 of 156 Old 09-19-2005, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by polarbear
Good luck. There are other men out there who also want to protect their children. You are not alone in your fight.

Thanks man.

Your situation sounds identical to mine. I agree w/ you - I think I need to hold off on arguing over circumcision until we find out if it's a boy or a girl. I even told my wife that a few days ago.
Thanks also to everyone out there for sharing your info. It helps a lot, and I'll post again when I find out if it's a boy or a girl.
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#22 of 156 Old 09-19-2005, 03:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ericisbacchus
I think I need to hold off on arguing over circumcision until we find out if it's a boy or a girl. I even told my wife that a few days ago.
Though, if it is a girl there is the chance that the u/s was wrong - so you still need to be prepared in case you do have a boy despite what the u/s tech says.


just a thought.

Happily married to my dh, mama to ds1 (01/2005), ds2 (07/2007)  and dd (07/2009).
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#23 of 156 Old 09-20-2005, 03:43 AM
 
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I kept trying to convince DH even though we don't know yet.
And I got good results. Sometimes it's easier to talk about when it's still theoretical.
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#24 of 156 Old 09-27-2005, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, my wife and I got in an argument about it last night.
My wife works in a medical facility, one of those office places with a bunch of dentists in it, and some girl in one of the other offices gave her some infection pictures that reinforced her devotion to having our (possible, we don't know the sex yet) son circ'ed.

She is very adamant that she wants it done, and freaked out and started crying. The last thing I want is my pregnant wife so upset, so I told her we should wait until we find out in two weeks if it is a boy or not.

She said she was going to order the doctors to do it. I said that I was going to order them not to, and that they would have to err on my side since they can't exactly put the foreskin back on once it's gone. "Im the mother" she said. While I understand I've got the whole childbirth thing easy being the guy, I still feel like my opinion is valid.

This is going to be a pretty sucky situation if we find out we're having a boy. It's depressing because... I mean we're both totally happy about our first child, but this is looming in the back of both of our heads I'm sure.
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#25 of 156 Old 09-27-2005, 02:19 PM
 
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play dirty- find the pics of botched circs and infections and amputations. make her listen to the video.

and threaten to sue any dr. who does it.

good luck!

-Angela
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#26 of 156 Old 09-27-2005, 02:25 PM
 
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Make a deal with her.

You will agree to circumcise a son if she will agree to circumcise a daughter. Say, half the clitoris and all of the labia. That is bound to cut down on yeast infections and any pimples on the labia that might get infected. (Yes, it does happen! ) Or how about you excise your brand-new baby girl's breast tissue because she has a 1 in 8 lifetime chance of getting breast cancer, which is way more deadly than (alleged) foreskin infections.

Or better yet, you will allow your son to be circed if she will agree to cut off the equivalent amount of adult tissue from her own genitals. (about the size of a 3 x 5 index card).

OK, so obviously she's not going to make this deal, but she needs to understand that cutting off half of a baby's erogeneous tissue because he MIGHT have an infection someday is ridiculous. Has she ever had a UTI? A yeast infection? Bacterial vaginosis? What parts of her own genitals would she be willing to cut off to treat those? Civilized people use antibiotics, not amputation, to cure infections.

Not one single medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision to prevent infections!!

Please, please, please don't give in to her tears. As much as I'm sure she is feeling some strong emotions about this subject, she is being irrational, pure and simple. Probably exacerbated by the pregnancy hormones. She may be truly upset but she will get over it. Your son would never recover the lost sensations and experiences of having an intact foreskin.

Has she read any of the links posted? Watched the video? She is simply not operating from an informed position here.

Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

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#27 of 156 Old 09-27-2005, 02:35 PM
 
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Does your wife have any female friends or relatives who are anti-circ? I am wondering if she might take the info from them rather than you better? I found out, quite by surprise, when I was pg with dd#2 that my grandmother had not circed (my mom didn't know that her brothers weren't) and that my mom regretted it. Neither of them ever said anything about this until I brought it up with them.

Maybe you could speak with older members of her family and see if she has a grandma or great-aunt, cousin or someone else who did not circumcise and who would be willing to speak with her about it.
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#28 of 156 Old 09-27-2005, 02:57 PM
 
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You've received lots of great responses so far but one thing I didn't see mentioned was the fact that she agreed to wait until your daughter (if you have a girl) could decide to get her own ears pierced, yet she is willing to take away part of her son's penis without his consent, a much more important body part imo. This is a procedure that can be done later if your son wants it. I don't know if you discussed this aspect with your wife, but it's one thing that stuck out at me from your original post.

There is a great article at the mothering.com site on circumsion that is definitely worth a read.
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#29 of 156 Old 09-27-2005, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You've received lots of great responses so far but one thing I didn't see mentioned was the fact that she agreed to wait until your daughter (if you have a girl) could decide to get her own ears pierced, yet she is willing to take away part of her son's penis without his consent, a much more important body part imo. This is a procedure that can be done later if your son wants it. I don't know if you discussed this aspect with your wife, but it's one thing that stuck out at me from your original post.
It is odd, considering both she and I are very much pro-choice.
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#30 of 156 Old 09-27-2005, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Make a deal with her.

You will agree to circumcise a son if she will agree to circumcise a daughter. Say, half the clitoris and all of the labia. That is bound to cut down on yeast infections and any pimples on the labia that might get infected. (Yes, it does happen! ) Or how about you excise your brand-new baby girl's breast tissue because she has a 1 in 8 lifetime chance of getting breast cancer, which is way more deadly than (alleged) foreskin infections.

Or better yet, you will allow your son to be circed if she will agree to cut off the equivalent amount of adult tissue from her own genitals. (about the size of a 3 x 5 index card).

OK, so obviously she's not going to make this deal, but she needs to understand that cutting off half of a baby's erogeneous tissue because he MIGHT have an infection someday is ridiculous. Has she ever had a UTI? A yeast infection? Bacterial vaginosis? What parts of her own genitals would she be willing to cut off to treat those? Civilized people use antibiotics, not amputation, to cure infections.
These are both points I made, but she didn't want to hear it.

Someone here PM'ed me offering me some videos. I'll take him up on it if we find out it's a boy.
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