How much foreskin removal is enough? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi, I'm new here, but I've been lurking for a while. Some of the thread topics made me think about how much variety there is from one circumcision to the next, so I started thinking about the "correct" amount of foreskin to remove.

I think most folks nowadays will agree that a loose circumcision is preferable to a "tight" one, to ensure that the boy has enough skin to grow into. Consequently, doctors are removing less foreskin than they have in the past. So how much is enough?

If you are circumcising your son for medical benefits, how much foreskin removal is enough to achieve those benefits? If your infant son has so much foreskin left so that most of his glans is covered, will he be protected against UTI's and penile cancer? If your teenage son can cover part of his glans with his foreskin, will he be protected from STD's? What if your son has to retract some remaining foreskin to wash? How much foreskin needs to be removed to achieve medical benefits? Of course we have to be careful no to cut off too
much.

If you circumcise so the chil will "look like Daddy", how much do you cut off? Does Dad show the doctor his own equipment? At what age is matching most important? When the baby is potty training? If so, I would think that a tight circumcision would be best (but be sure you don't have too much cut off). Or is it better for the boy to match his Dad when he hits puberty? How much should the doctor take off to ensure a close match?

If you circumcise to avoid locker room teasing, how do you decide what kind of circumcision will appease the locker room bullies? If they have loose circs, will your tightly-circ'ed son get teased? If the thugs in the locker room have tight circ's, you'd better make sure your son doesn't have any extra foreksin (but make sure not too much is cut off). How do you predict what the bullies will want?

If you circumcise because it's cleaner and easier to care for, do you mean cleaner for the parent during the diaper years, or cleaner for the man for the rest of his life? If you want ease of care during the diaper years, a tight circ might be the way to go, to minimize the risk of adhesions and smegma - but be careful not to have too much cut off. If you are more concerned about your son's hygiene when he's an adult, you'll want to make sure he has enough foreskin to grow into, but not too much.

If you circumcise because you think it looks better, how do you explain to the doctor what you consider to be "just right"? Do you bring in photos of your ideal penis? Are you more interested in having his penis look nice to you when he's a baby or an adult?

If you choose to have your son circumcised, for whatever reason, how in the world do you decide how much foreskin removal is enough? How do you ensure that they don't take too much?

If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

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#2 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 12:41 PM
 
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You should never remove any foreskin that is not part of your own body. There are no medical benifits.

No circumcision is good circumcision.

-Angela
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#3 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 01:19 PM
 
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#4 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 01:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd_deadhead
so I started thinking about the "correct" amount of foreskin to remove.
none- read through some of the sticky's at the top of the forum to read about how all these so-called "medical" and "hygeine" benefits are really a heaping load of BS.

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#5 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 01:24 PM
 
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Generally you will have NO CHOICE WHATSOEVER as to how much is taken off. It is up to the skill of the Doctor / OB / Pediatrician / Intern as to how much they remove, as well as the method used. And even then, the size of the infant penis (0.5” to 1.5”) leaves much up to chance. Doctors have attempted to leave more these days as a way to accommodate the ‘chance’ factor.

Please view the flurry of comments to follow with the understanding that this is an anti-circumcision site, and there are no reasons for circumcision in the first place, so that any amount is too much. I would ask (beg) you to keep an open mind and learn from the notes written, rather than balk or get angry at the ‘ravings of the anti-circumcision lunatics’. We have well thought out rebuttals to any and all ‘reasons to circumcise’ and can show you that there is a reason that there are no medical association IN THE WORLD who recommend circumcision for ANYTHING.

Please listen. Please ask questions. Please learn. Ignorance if fought with knowledge.
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#6 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 01:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna
You should never remove any foreskin that is not part of your own body. There are no medical benifits.

No circumcision is good circumcision.

-Angela

:

I got a video on circ from a midwife that has retired. Watching it reminded me why my baby will never get one. Its horrible. And leaving the room so you do not have to witness it or hear your baby cry does not take you off the hook IMO.
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#7 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 01:34 PM
 
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FWIW, I thought the OP was trying to make a case that one could never know the "right" amount to remove. The question of "how much" was meant rhetorically. Am I right, OP?
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#8 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 01:39 PM
 
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//
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#9 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 01:46 PM
 
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How much is enough? How about none.
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#10 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I completely agree that ANY amount is too much. My question was more for those who are in favor of circumcision, to point out that the level of variability is enormous, and one might not necessarily get the result that one expected.

I am expecially curious to hear from those who believe in medical benefits to circumcision. I have never read a study or article about medical benefits (be it reduction in UTIs, penile cancer, or STDs), that describes the effect of AMOUNT of foreskin removal required for each protective effect. Does a "loose" circumcision afford the same benefits as a "tight" one? If not, is it worth it?

Again, I strongly beleive that if one MUST circumcise, a loose circ is far better than a tight one. I've heard too many horror stories about men who suffer their entire lives from not enough penile skin, and it seems apparent (from the increasing number of loose circ performed today) that that many doctors agree.

But is a loose circ worth it? There's no evidence that a loose circ results in medical benefits. Many parents complain that their baby doesn't even look circ'ed, the "cosmetic benefit" isn't realized. A loose circ has a greater chance of adhesions, negating the "easier to care for" benefit.

If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

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#11 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 02:29 PM
 
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Hmmm, I think advocating for loose circ is too close to advocating for circ. How does the saying go? "There's no right way to do a wrong thing." I think that's somebody's signature here and it really is the answer to the OP's question.
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#12 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 02:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd_deadhead
My question was more for those who are in favor of circumcision
I doubt you will find very many of those people in this forum.

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#13 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 02:48 PM
 
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Um guys, hey, um, I think Deadhead (original poster) was being sarcastic. Read the post carefully.

Thanks,
~Nay


ETA
Damn...then again maybe not. Okay, are you being sarcastic or not? 'Cuz I was chuckling at your first post thinking, "Yeah, you're right, none of it makes any sense!" Should he look like his daddy, soft or erect? Which bully should he look like? Easier to clean for mom or grown son.

Reneé, 34 year old mom to Antonin 8/04 and Arianna 9/06  (6 weeks) 5/08. Married to Matt since 6/03 .  
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#14 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 02:51 PM
 
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I have read threads on other (pro-circumcision) mainstream boards where the question of the long term health benefits of circumcising later in life (after childhood). The usual answer is along the lines of 'the benefit is reduced, but now is still better than later.'

Similar responses for how much should be removed for optimal health: 'More off is best' (Yeh right)

(edit: Please note that neither is of the above are true.)
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#15 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm glad!! But I'll bet a lot of people lurk here without posting. In debating circumcision over the years, I've found that approaching the issue from a different angle sometimes gets people to see it in a different light.

I wasn't exactly being sarcastic, but the question was not meant to tell ME how much I should remove - it was to make anyone considering circ for their own son to think about how risky a proposition it is.

If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

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#16 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 02:55 PM
 
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Nope, I'm pretty sure I was right the first time. Read the original post carefully. OP was being sarcastic. I especially liked the part about the Dad showing the doctor his package Good point!


~Nay

Reneé, 34 year old mom to Antonin 8/04 and Arianna 9/06  (6 weeks) 5/08. Married to Matt since 6/03 .  
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#17 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 02:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd_deadhead
I'm glad!! But I'll bet a lot of people lurk here without posting. In debating circumcision over the years, I've found that approaching the issue from a different angle sometimes gets people to see it in a different light.

I wasn't exactly being sarcastic, but the question was not meant to tell ME how much I should remove - it was to make anyone considering circ for their own son to think about how risky a proposition it is.

AW! Well, you know I didn't mean sarcastic in a bad sense. I thought your post had a lot of humor in it. You're right, it does get the point across.

Though, I must admit it would probably work better in a more mainstream board!

~Nay

Reneé, 34 year old mom to Antonin 8/04 and Arianna 9/06  (6 weeks) 5/08. Married to Matt since 6/03 .  
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#18 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"Though, I must admit it would probably work better in a more mainstream board! "

Point taken. I didn't realize to the extent to which I was preaching to the choir.


For the record, I have two intact sons, twins who just turned 11. We opted not to circumcise them without benefit of Internet research (which we didn't have at the time) or anything else other than common sense. DH is circ'ed, but he had no hangups about his sons' genitals "matching" his. (I've always wondered if those men who feel so strongly about matching their sons shave their pubic hair and wear ice in their shorts for 10 years).

Our reasoning went something like this:

1. That's GOT to HURT!
2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3. All boys are born with a foreskin; it must be there for a reason.

Fortunately our doctor supported our decision 100%.

I admit that we experienced a bit of "fear of the unknown" before the boys were born, but that disappeared almost immediately. It didn't take long for us to see circ'ed babies as odd-looking, or to appreciate the marvel of engineering that the foreskin is.

If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

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#19 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 04:37 PM
 
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nd_deadhead, I your OP.


 

 

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#20 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 04:48 PM
 
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Welcome to the boards! I love having another mom here with older intact sons, because we can help prove to other moms that the foreskin is a normal, healthy part of the male body. My sons are now 26 and 18, and they've had zero problems with being intact.

By the way, I suspected that your OP was meant to be ironic, and I'm glad that other posts confirmed it. :LOL
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#21 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 04:55 PM
 
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Welcome to the boards! I am going to print off your OP and show it to dh, he's all for circing and it's bound to be a battle between us.....You brought up some good points!
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#22 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 05:26 PM
 
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Is it you Ann? Glad you're here!

Pam

: If I'm wrong...
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#23 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 05:43 PM
 
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Um, I think he's being sarcastic. At least I got a good laugh

Mom of a 7 yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old. Wow. How did that happen?
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#24 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 06:26 PM
 
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I thought that the OP was BRILLIANT! Totally exposes the lack of logical support underpinning circing for reasons.

Taking off too much is bad. Taking off too little is bad. Therefore, let's NOT CUT AT ALL!!!!

Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

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#25 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 06:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paminmi
Is it you Ann? Glad you're here!

Pam

: If I'm wrong...

That was my guess too!

welcome to you........if it is you........and even if it isn't

Take care,
Tara

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
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#26 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I couldn't find a waving smilie, so ~~WAVE~~!!!

Yep, it's me - Hi Pam! Hi Tara!


Quirky, thanks for the compliment!

If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

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#27 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 07:02 PM
 
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Well, I got as far as the first paragraph and my suspicious radar went off!

I'm glad to see we're on the same page! Great post, very thought provoking for folks!

"To err is human, to forgive, canine." - Unknown
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#28 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 07:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wednesday
FWIW, I thought the OP was trying to make a case that one could never know the "right" amount to remove. The question of "how much" was meant rhetorically. Am I right, OP?
that's what I thought too.

R~mama to 3

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#29 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 07:41 PM
 
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Hi there - welcome! Great post! You raise (heh) some really good points. Especially the one about cut dads wearing ice in their pants for quite a while
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#30 of 50 Old 09-22-2005, 08:37 PM
 
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OK, it's time for me to let the cat out of the bag!

Ann/ND_deadhead is a long time friend and intactivist. She is as committed to intactivism as anyone I know. I saw the post at another site and caught on immediately. It was so obvious to me that I thought everyone would instantly get the message and I asked her to come here and post it as a personal favor. I had no idea that anyone would read into it that it was in any way supporting circumcision or any particular style of circumcision. My apologies!

When I came and saw 28 replies, my first thought was that everyone saw it as just as brilliant as I did. I'm sorry that I mis-estimated.

Circumcision presents a conundrum when you look at it from this viewpoint. If tight circumcisions were bad then loose circumcisions must be good but look at all of the questions and problems loose circumcisions also cause! Loose circumcisions are also bad, so let's look again at tight circumcisions and compare them to loose circumcisions and decide which is least bad. Right? No, wrong, wrong, wrong! The only answer to which style of circumcision is least bad is to say there is no right way to do a wrong thing. No circumcision is best, they are all bad so the obvious answer is no circumcision at all! That is the only way to avoid all of the problems of tight circumcisions and at the same time to avoid all of the problems of loose circumcisions.

Thanks for the post, Ann! Hopefully, you will join us again. We can use the quality of your writing and thinking and your dedication to the cause!



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