Circumcision repair for my 16 month old son next Wednesday. - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 94 Old 12-09-2005, 02:04 PM
 
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Oh sweetie!!

I couldn't pass by this thread without responding. I am going to ask this question of you coming from a different angle.



Would you care, truly care, if your husband had a hole in his foreskin? Would any woman on this thread care?

This is not would your husband care, it would be normal and natural to him.

But would you care? He is your husband, and you love him. All of him.


The woman who marries your wonderful PERFECT just as he is amazing son, will love him. And she won't care. She will be HAPPY that he has some foreskin.


I wouldn't care. Heck, I would love it if my husband had ANY foreskin at all!!

I know you are hurting mama. I can't imagine. Cutting off more won't heal that hurt, but leaving what he has left (which sounds like a lot) could. Any penis looks hmmm...slightly odd? LOL. There is nothing wrong with something different. It is only different, not broken.

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#62 of 94 Old 12-09-2005, 02:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LeosMama
Frank, what about the surgery and removal of the foreskin? How to repair the hole?
What if the foreskin is lopsided and 'redundant' as she describes?

That will all come later if it's necessary. I can't give a diagnosis or prognosis not having seen the actual defect. Just from what I have read though, it appears the hole goes through both the inner and outer foreskin and would cause a problem with retraction because there would be a tethering effect. If this is the case, to just close the hole, there would be a small incision just below the hole and the inner and outer foreskin would be separated making two holes in effect. Then each hole would be sutured shut separately and the first incision would be sutured. If I have assessed the situation correctly, this would be very minor surgery and I suspect would not require an overnight stay in the hospital. It might possibly even be done in the doctor's office. Probably in just a few years, all three incisions and scars would be invisible or nearly so if performed in a workman like manner and the frmnant foreskin would function as correctly as possible for a child who has been circumcised. That does not mean it would have the same functionality as an intact foreskin but would be far better that a penis that has been tightly cut.

I suspect any lopsidedness is a result of the hole and once the hole is repaired, any lopsidedness will disappear.

"Redundant" in medical terminology means excessive or superflurous tissue. Except in very rare cases of a anomaly called mega prepuce, there is no such thing as redundant foreskin, especially in a circumcised child. In other industries, redundant is used to describe back-up systems and this can cause confusion. For example, automobiles have a single ignition system with one sparkplug per cylinder. But, if you are in an airplane, an ignition system or a fouled sparkplug during a trip could have deadly consequences, therefore, airplanes typically have two separate and independent ignition systems and two spark plugs per cylinder for safety's sake. That is referred to as a redundant system. For a child to have redundant foreskin using that definition would mean that he had two foreskins.



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#63 of 94 Old 12-09-2005, 03:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sheacoby
THundersweet, there is no such thing as redundant foreskin (the term is pretty offensive also).
My thoughts exactly. As soon as I'd heard the nurse say "redundant" foreskine, I'd've said, "You know, we're out of here." Because that statement tells you exactly what the nurse thinks of your son's foreskin, that it is of no consquence and completely worthless.

I know you've been through a lot with this entire ordeal. I realize the operation is scheduled for today, but please keep in mind that you can still walk away from it up until the time the doctor makes the incision. From your post it sounds like you're having this surgery done now because insurance is paying for it. Please don't make this decision based solely on this on factor.

I honestly think you should look into plastic surgeons, other urologists, and find the one who will do the best for your son, not just one who's covered by insurance. You may have to pay out of pocket, but ultimately, it may be the better choice.

ETA: I just read that you've contacted the lawyer in Atlanta. Good for you!! Best wishes for your son.
~Nay

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#64 of 94 Old 12-09-2005, 03:47 PM
 
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ITA that you should sue. Think of it this way, you could be keeping some other woman's son from being harmed the same way yours was. Also, please find an intact friendly urologist (maybe Frank will know how to do this) and see if the hole can be repaired without the loss of the additional foreskin. YOU are the one who is going to have to answer to your son about this decision in the future...so do what is best for him medically (and ignore the "cosmetic" reasons - how shallow are they?)

Happily married to my dh, mama to ds1 (01/2005), ds2 (07/2007)  and dd (07/2009).
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#65 of 94 Old 12-09-2005, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you all for your responses. I greatly appreciate it even though some of them were harsh.

I have been looking at his penis at every diaper change today thinking about what to do. One thing I do remember that happened a week or so ago. Some of you said to leave it alone it was causing no harm. For the most part it doesn't but we did have an episode last week when he was crying and fussing and pulling down on his crotch. He has done this several times before but not to this extent. I just figured he didnt like the diaper I had on him. (cloth) I didnt think to check his diaper because I had just changed him. By this time he was laying on the floor so I opened his diaper and realized his foreskin was caught in the crease of his diaper and pulling down. As soon as I loosened it he instantly stopped crying. How often has that been the cause of his pulling down on the diaper between his legs? I don't know! The bottom of the "mushroom" appearance as I so lovingly called it before hangs down like a turkey neck. That is the best way to describe it I guess.

Frank, thanks so much for your help! The hole is right through the foreskin. If I am standing in front of him changing his diaper, I can take both hands and grab each side with two fingers and pull it all the way up and well over the head of the penis. You will then see a gaping hole right through his right side. When I let go, the skin around the top of the hole hangs way down past the rest of the droopy skin. I know its hard to picture. The urologist said it will get bigger and then could actually get tangled or hung up on the head of the penis. Not sure if that would happen or not but looking at it I can see where that would happen as the hole gets larger. If that makes sense at all.
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#66 of 94 Old 12-09-2005, 07:58 PM
 
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Sandy, I would be willing to bet that the lawyer would *probably* have contacts to hook you up with a doctor that would be able to fix the hole without re-circ'ing him.
Good luck to you.
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#67 of 94 Old 12-09-2005, 10:00 PM
 
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You know now if he is fussing and pulling on his diaper now to check it! My daughters get chapped sometimes and it is the same type of thing that they do. Luckily it is an easy fix!

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CIRCUMCISION

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#68 of 94 Old 12-09-2005, 11:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thundersweet
he urologist said it will get bigger and then could actually get tangled or hung up on the head of the penis.
The hole will probably get larger, because he's a growing kid and everything on his body is growing, including his penis. And, if you keep pulling/stretching it, that may also contribute to the hole getting larger. IMO, until you make a decision about legal action/reconstructive surgery, leaving it alone is probably the best course of action.

I just seem to be getting the impression that this doctor is making stuff up to frighten/pressure you into consenting for further cosmetic surgery for your son's penis, perhaps even to cover up the mistake that was made origionally to cover his own butt.

The concept of him getting "tangled up" in his foreskin is completely beyond me...

Jen
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#69 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 01:13 AM
 
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This is my first post-yay!
Anyway, I just had to comment. What you are describing your son's penis looking like seems to me to be very much what my own son's non-circumcised penis looks like. He has a ton of extra skin that kind of droops and that is just the way it is. I would never change it for anything.
Also, just like many others said, if you are concerned about the hole, the best course of action would be to stitch it up. There is no reason to cut more of his foreskin off. Again, the droopiness may be more normal than you think and will probably look more normal as he-and his penis-grows.

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#70 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 02:54 AM
 
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This is an awfully long thread so excuse me if this has already been mentioned
but I would suggest that you contact Doctors Opposing Circumcision through their website.

They are the most helpful people you'll ever come across. They have at their fingertips all the friendly to penis docs in the U.S. Don't be shy to send them an email, they are always ready to help with medical concerns.
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#71 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 09:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sunflower_mommy
IMO, until you make a decision about legal action/reconstructive surgery, leaving it alone is probably the best course of action.
I agree. Regardless of whether a legal case procedes, evidence needs to be collected that would be destroyed by the surgery and a doctor who David knows will testify without torpedoing the case has to evaluate the child.


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I just seem to be getting the impression that this doctor is making stuff up to frighten/pressure you into consenting for further cosmetic surgery for your son's penis, perhaps even to cover up the mistake that was made origionally to cover his own butt.
That is also a possibility. Imagine going to court and saying "My son had a hole in his penis because the doctor botched it but it's gone now. They fixed it and you can hardly tell." or just saying "My son has this huge gaping hole in his penis because of the ineptitude of the doctor." Obviously a jury hearing the first is going to say "OK, what the heck is the deal?" while hearing the second will be saying "OMG!!!!"



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#72 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 11:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by little_monkeys
This is my first post-yay!
Anyway, I just had to comment. What you are describing your son's penis looking like seems to me to be very much what my own son's non-circumcised penis looks like. He has a ton of extra skin that kind of droops and that is just the way it is. I would never change it for anything.
Also, just like many others said, if you are concerned about the hole, the best course of action would be to stitch it up. There is no reason to cut more of his foreskin off. Again, the droopiness may be more normal than you think and will probably look more normal as he-and his penis-grows.
I was just thinking this last night....thundersweet, do you know what a normal intact baby penis looks like? (there is a wide variation in normal). it's possible your son still has enough foreskin that it looks like an intact penis (except for the hole in it).

my son's foreskin extends well past his glans.

also, what exactly caused the hole? you mentioned nitrate strips? did the circing doctor use silver nitrate on your son? :shock that's a cauterizing agent and burns like hell (my midwife put silver nitrate on me where the stitches on my vaginal tear had pulled open). i didn't know they used silver nitrate in circs.

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#73 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 12:09 PM
 
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Thundersweet - what a drag. Tell us what happened... did your babe have the surgery? Did it go ok? Did they just fix the hole? waiting on tenderhooks...

Mama to B and O , wife to J and me to me! :
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#74 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 12:34 PM
 
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Thundersweet - what a drag. Tell us what happened... did your babe have the surgery? Did it go ok? Did they just fix the hole? waiting on tenderhooks...
The baby has not had the surgery yet. As I understand it, he was scheduled for surgery next week but was rescheduled for January. Depending on what happens with David Llewellyn and what evidence needs to be gathered, the surgery may be delayed again until everything is taken care of. At this point, there is no urgent medical need for the surgery. It seems the rush was for insurance coverage but with David involved, I doubt there is any worry about insurance coverage. I suspect the doctor's malpractice provider will be begging to cover any surgery needed.



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#75 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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HI! Yes, I did reschedule the surgery, mainly just to keep him in the book until I decided what to do. Of course, now I have called the lawyer so we will see what happens from here.
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#76 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 01:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thundersweet
HI! Yes, I did reschedule the surgery, mainly just to keep him in the book until I decided what to do. Of course, now I have called the lawyer so we will see what happens from here.
Calling the lawyer is the right thing to do. Your boy deserves it! I agree with what everyone else has said about leaving it alone for now.
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#77 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 05:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Quirky
you mentioned nitrate strips? did the circing doctor use silver nitrate on your son? :shock that's a cauterizing agent and burns like hell (my midwife put silver nitrate on me where the stitches on my vaginal tear had pulled open). i didn't know they used silver nitrate in circs.
Yep, they do sometimes use silver nitrate sticks during circs, if they have an area that continues to bleed. It was one of the standard supplies in the circ rooms at the hospital where I worked, although I only saw them used a couple of times...if I remember correctly, mostly around the frenular-area? It literally stops bleeding by causing a chemical burn.

A doctor once used them on my cervix after punch biopsies-no anesthetic.

Youch.

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#78 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Quirky
I was just thinking this last night....thundersweet, do you know what a normal intact baby penis looks like? (there is a wide variation in normal). it's possible your son still has enough foreskin that it looks like an intact penis (except for the hole in it).

my son's foreskin extends well past his glans.

also, what exactly caused the hole? you mentioned nitrate strips? did the circing doctor use silver nitrate on your son? :shock that's a cauterizing agent and burns like hell (my midwife put silver nitrate on me where the stitches on my vaginal tear had pulled open). i didn't know they used silver nitrate in circs.
I have never seen one IRL. I have seen pictures though. My sons is not smooth to the end. Its all bunched up and big at the tip. Like lots of fat and the bottom hangs at least 1/2 inch down from the penis. Like I described earlier, a turkey neck almost.

They did use silver nitrate. Is that not standard? The only thing I remember was the doctor coming in and saying to us "he was bleeding alot, I'm not sure why but he is all fine now." I am assuming she used them because of this? I cringed when she said that.

I am so sorry I did this to my son.
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#79 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 10:02 PM
 
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Might I suggest that you stick the anti-circ icon in your siggy? The more intactivism we get 'out there', the more boys we will save from going through this. Some moms here have something like 'regretting our decision'

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#80 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 10:15 PM
 
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They did use silver nitrate. Is that not standard? The only thing I remember was the doctor coming in and saying to us "he was bleeding alot, I'm not sure why but he is all fine now." I am assuming she used them because of this? I cringed when she said that.
When all done wrt the lawsuit, etc., and *before* you do any further surgical procedures, please have your son tested for bleeding disorders. Bleeding after an unconsented circ was my son's first sign of a bleeding disorder (was not diagnosed until years later.) Ask to have him tested for von Willebrand's disease and mild hemophilia.
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#81 of 94 Old 12-10-2005, 11:05 PM
 
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The foreskin that you are describing sounds pretty normal to me...but then I don't have a boy! I DO however have a lot of friends with boys who are naked a lot (LOL) and there are a couple of them that have foreskins that hang down at least a half inch from the tip of the penis. There is also one boy who's foreskin hangs down about an inch or so. There is just a lot of extra room to grow. For someone who hasn't seen what an uncirced' penis looks like, it might look like there is something wrong. But there isn't!! It is all perfectly normal. They come in all differert shapes and sizes. Even mushroom shaped at the end.

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#82 of 94 Old 12-11-2005, 03:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by thundersweet
The only thing I remember was the doctor coming in and saying to us "he was bleeding alot, I'm not sure why but he is all fine now." I am assuming she used them because of this? I cringed when she said that.


I agree with everyone...sue the dog crap out of this dr (is 'dog crap' one word or 2?). Then she'll be broke before she rots in the ever-lasting fires of hell for making money off of the blood of children. You're so lucky that your son lived through that surgery, thank god. Then you'd suing for something much worse than a botched circumcision. What she said sounds really scary to me as it doesn't take a lot of blood loss in a newborn to be very bad.

Don't be too hard on yourself. It's mostly the medical community's fault. Don't turn the anger on yourself. Yes, you should have researched more but when tons of drs say it's ok, you don't have a fair shot at knowing what's right. I mean, if it was so bad they wouldn't do it, right (oh yeah they would)? When you know better, you do better. But don't have anything else done until you get a second and even third opinion. Right now you're so mad at yourself that you can't see past that, but once you're past that you'll realize how mad you are at that dr and the medical community as a whole for perpetuating such a horrendous practice for money, then that dr won't know what hit her.

I haven't seen a pic of really loose circumcision or one in an infant/toddler, but maybe that skin hanging down is typical of that? When you say "skin hanging down" I think you mean frm the underneath part of the penis, not from the end? Or from the end but not in a sort of "tube" like with an intact kid, but more loose skin? Maybe that part isn't as unusual as you think.
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#83 of 94 Old 12-11-2005, 01:10 PM
 
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I agree with everyone...sue the dog crap out of this dr (is 'dog crap' one word or 2?). Then she'll be broke before she rots in the ever-lasting fires of hell for making money off of the blood of children.
A case like this will have virtually no financial impact on the doctor. That's what they have malpractice insurance for. Their premiums may go up slightly for a short while and he/she may have to miss some office time while this is being negotiated but it wil not have any significant financial impact on the doctor.

The reason that every single one of these cases must be pursued is because the insurance company will eventually see the light and defund the procedure and write it into their malpractice policies that they will not cover circumcision claims against doctors who do perform circumcisions. We are already seeing evidence of this. In Canada, doctors have been warned that their professional insurance may not cover them for circumcision claims. That helped but what really drove it home is when Ryleigh McWillis died. Suddenly, the doctors saw that they could be financially ruined over a $300.00 procedure and suddenly, the circumcision rate dropped by almost 50%.

We are begining to see this. In a recently issued policy by ND Blue Cross/Blue Shield, circumcision is specifically excluded as a covered procedure and treatment of complications from excluded procedures is also excluded. This puts the onus on the parent or the malpractice provided. I suspect BC/BS just got tired of paying for stuff like this. I don't blame them! I can imagine it was costing them millions each year.



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#84 of 94 Old 12-11-2005, 01:33 PM
 
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In Canada ...the circumcision rate dropped by almost 50%.

We are begining to see this. In a recently issued policy by ND Blue Cross/Blue Shield, circumcision is specifically excluded as a covered procedure and treatment of complications from excluded procedures is also excluded.
Ive never been more proud to be Canadian (living in the usa...but still : )


YAY BC/BS!!!! I think Ill have to write them a nice email commending them on the policy in ND. yah I know its all about money and not human rights...but when money keeps little boys intact then thats awesome!
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#85 of 94 Old 12-12-2005, 12:41 AM
 
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In Canada, doctors have been warned that their professional insurance may not cover them for circumcision claims. That helped but what really drove it home is when Ryleigh McWillis died. Suddenly, the doctors saw that they could be financially ruined over a $300.00 procedure and suddenly, the circumcision rate dropped by almost 50%.


Frank
It makes me so sad that a little boy actually had to die before they started to get it. And even then, it wasn't about losing a person, it was about money

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#86 of 94 Old 12-12-2005, 02:22 AM
 
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It makes me so sad that a little boy actually had to die before they started to get it. And even then, it wasn't about losing a person, it was about money
What blew my mind was that in an article I read about it, his mother said she would circ again if she had another son!

"Tanna McWillis herself says she and her husband would probably circumcise another male child.

"I was told a lot of people opposed to circumcision would grandstand about my son's death, but we would do it again.

"If I had been better informed on how to look after my baby, it would never have happened."

<http://www.cirp.org/news/theprovince02-13-04/>
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#87 of 94 Old 12-12-2005, 02:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking
A case like this will have virtually no financial impact on the doctor. That's what they have malpractice insurance for. Their premiums may go up slightly for a short while and he/she may have to miss some office time while this is being negotiated but it wil not have any significant financial impact on the doctor.
Eh, Frank, I was speaking in hyperbole .
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#88 of 94 Old 12-12-2005, 02:54 PM
 
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What blew my mind was that in an article I read about it, his mother said she would circ again if she had another son!

"Tanna McWillis herself says she and her husband would probably circumcise another male child.

"I was told a lot of people opposed to circumcision would grandstand about my son's death, but we would do it again.

"If I had been better informed on how to look after my baby, it would never have happened."

<http://www.cirp.org/news/theprovince02-13-04/>


Denial anyone?

Midwifery Student and Mama to 2 daughters and 3 sons.     
ribboncesarean.gif vbac.gifhomebirth.jpg I have given birth a variety of ways and I am thankful for what each one has taught me.

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#89 of 94 Old 12-12-2005, 05:13 PM
 
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I know it's OT, sorry, but I'm floored by this woman. HER BABY DIED because they wanted to cut off a sensitive piece of anatomy "Just for family history". This probably translates to "I had a brother who used to get infections/had phimosis and had to be circed as an toddler". We've all heard this one before. And she blames the dr's and herself for not knowing how to deal with the bleeding. If she hadn't had an unnecessary procedure performed, he would be alive today. GGGGRRRRR
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#90 of 94 Old 12-12-2005, 06:18 PM
 
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What choice does she have? She could say "Boy, am I an idiot! I insisted my son be circ'ed, and now he's dead. It's all my fault".

Not everyone is strong enough to make that sort of admission - even to themselves. I only hope that if she has another son, she has the strength to do the right thing.

If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

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