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Old 01-11-2006, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Updated on second page :

**********************
I have a good friend who is due with a baby boy in 2 weeks, though she is 2 cm and 80% effaced. We both have 2 small children and now live in different states so we don't talk as much. I sort of assumed they had decided not to circ, since we have talked about it a bit in the past, but I just found out they are almost decided to do it.

I wrote a long post earlier but it disappeared when I tried to post it- apparently I had lost my connection. :

She says she is still persuadable. She asked me for links. She does not want anything that is horribly anti-circ scare tactic type stuff. She does not want graphic videos, she claims she has already watched a video.

What I would like to do is to have anyone interested write her an email and I will forward it to her. She is a well educated, semi AP/NFL mama. Her dh WAS against circ and I am not exactly sure why he changed, their main reason for deciding FOR it is because of social reasons. Medical reasons are not an issue and she does realize it is basically a cosmetic surgery. Please help me persuade her! I feel so desperate, I was shaking while on the phone with her.

My email addy is ingridschreiber@ earthlink.net

She lives in GA and believes that the rates are high there, based on conversations with parents and her ped. You can simply address the email to Ingrid's friend. Please do not make her feel attacked, I think she is feeling very emotional about this, which is good! Thank you in advance for helping me! I hope this will help her make the right choice.
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Old 01-11-2006, 03:37 PM
 
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I would copy & paste into an e-mail the sticky at the top of this forum of moms regretting circ-ing their sons. I would also send her a link to Mothering's "The Case Against Circumcision".

If she is doing it for social reasons, you can always plainly say, "If your DS is uncomfortable w/it forwhatever reason, he can always be circumsized". Then it is his choice and they can rest easy that they made an excellent decision. Deferring to the owner of the penis.
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Old 01-11-2006, 03:37 PM
 
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dang computer
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Old 01-11-2006, 03:37 PM
 
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oops, triple post
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Old 01-11-2006, 03:45 PM
 
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I'd be happy to email her, but perhaps you could just link her to your thread, and we could all post our message to her here?

Jen
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Old 01-11-2006, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflower_mommy
I'd be happy to email her, but perhaps you could just link her to your thread, and we could all post our message to her here?

Jen
That is a good idea, I am not sure if she would want to do that but I can certainly suggest it to her. So, if you would prefer to just post here, you can do that instead of emailing. I can also just cut and paste posts on THIS thread to her and email them if she doesnt' want to join and read on here. Thanks!
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Old 01-11-2006, 04:34 PM
 
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If I can only use one link, I like this one:

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

Hope this helps!

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Old 01-11-2006, 05:09 PM
 
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Hey, where in GA is she? I personally know at least a dozen intact little boys in the Atlanta area, including MINE! And I don't know very many people! (I'm shy. )

Ingrid's friend: About the social reasons argument... there are so many things that can make a kid stand out. I'm not sure any of us gets through our school-age years without being teased for something. The key is having a strong sense of self, and as good parents, you'll be instilling that in him. Cutting off a large part of his penis is not going to protect him. It's going to harm him, not only now, but for the rest of his life. Regardless of what your informal poll says, his is not going to be the only natural penis in the locker room. Even if it was- the other guys would be the ones missing something they're supposed to have!

If you've really researched this, then you know the incredible functions of the foreskin and why every guy would want to have one. So how can you even consider taking that from your son? If you have not really researched it and don't know what the foreskin is for and what it does, then you definitely are not in a poisiton to decide! Listen to Ingrid!

~*Kristi*~
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Old 01-11-2006, 09:12 PM
 
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From another thread here titled "information request" addressing sensory differences between circ and intact........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baybee
Dr John Taylor of Winnipeg Manitoba is a pathologist who has spoken at the NoCIRC Symposia on this subject. He got interested because he had to convince his (physician) son in law NOT to circ his grandsons.
http://www.noharmm.org/perscholar.htm
Has a "Research" page which has a link to a published study by him from 1996 about just that subject.

Baybee
Frank lives in GA and might help with statistics.
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Old 01-11-2006, 09:22 PM
 
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We were living in southeast GA when DS was born. I didn't see many other intact little boys when we lived there but we received nothing but support from my midwives, the nurses in the hospital and the peds we saw. In fact, my L&D nurse was very happy that we were not circing and said that if she had seen the procedure before her sons were born that she would never have had it done. She had a big smile on her face as she ripped up the circ consent sheet.

Chaotic uc.jpg homeschool.gif mama to 5 plus a bonus one on the way.  stork-suprise.gif

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Old 01-12-2006, 12:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gridley13
That is a good idea, I am not sure if she would want to do that but I can certainly suggest it to her. So, if you would prefer to just post here, you can do that instead of emailing. I can also just cut and paste posts on THIS thread to her and email them if she doesnt' want to join and read on here. Thanks!
Whatever you prefer is fine, I was just worried we might overwhelm her with email, and I wasn't sure if she'd appreciate so many people she didn't know emailing her. I'll get some links together and post again later tonight.

Jen
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Old 01-12-2006, 12:01 AM
 
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The thing I would like to tell your friend is that no one ever really tells parents what the foreskin is FOR. Even the AAP talks about the benefits of circumcision vs. the risks of circumcision but they don't discuss the benefits of having a foreskin.

The foreskin is a normal, natural, and necessary part of the human male. There aren't any extra parts on the penis, just like there aren't any extra parts on the vagina/vulva.

The foreskin contains half the nerve endings of the penis and it is the most sensitive part of the penis. Everyone always thinks that the glans (head of the penis) is the most sensitive part but the truth is that it is only the most sensitive part left after a circumcision.

For more information and research on this, here are some good sites to look at:

http://research.cirp.org

http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_lost.html

Think about how it might feel to lose half of the nerve endings in the clitoris and clitoral hood - you might still love sex and be able to reach orgasm, but you would be missing what nature intended you to have.

Whether you believe in God or in nature as the designer of the human body - there just aren't any extra, unnecessary parts, especially when it comes to the genitals.

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Old 01-12-2006, 10:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingbear
Frank lives in GA and might help with statistics.
Not too much I'm afraid. Because of my age, most of my friends are past child bearing age and I don't have much contact with people in that age group. But from observations, I suspect the circumcision rate for the area around my Atlanta home is relatively low. It is upscale and the education level and internet useage level is high. I also know many intactivists in the area. The area surrounding my country home is very different I suspect. It is a semi-rural area and mostly blue collar and an industrial area. I suspect the circumcision rate there is relatively high. I only know of two people within 30 miles who didn't circumcise and they aren't intactivists. The major cities in Georgia have large African American populations and the circumcision rates for African Americans is the highest for any ethnic group other that Jews. The entire southern half of the state has a very large African American population and the northern half has a small population. As I understand, the percentage as a whole is about 16% African American for the state.



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Old 01-12-2006, 10:38 AM
 
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I will give her the viewpoint of an older woman who didn't have her sons circ'ed 20 some years ago. I have no regrets about my decision. The more I learn, the happier I get that I left my sons whole. They did NOT have any "locker room" issues, even though intact men in their age group are a tiny minority in our area.
Also, why not leave the decision to him? It's his penis, not yours or your husband's. If he wants to get himself circ'ed when he's older, he's free to go ahead and have it done. If you get him circ'ed as a baby, he will be deprived of this freedom of choice.
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Old 01-12-2006, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Just wanted to say thanks so far, I am cutting and pasting replies into an email right now.
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Old 01-12-2006, 11:39 AM
 
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You might want to include some stuff form the thread from a coupl eof weeks back where sevferal women and quite a few men talked about our experiences with circ and sexuality. Several people, including myself, wrote about the sexual difficulties and frustrations--emotional and physical--that have impacted our relationships. To me those personal experiences are more convincing reasons than informational bullet points.
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Old 01-12-2006, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Good idea, thanks! I will do it.
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Old 01-12-2006, 05:25 PM
 
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Gridley, another couple of thoughts -

First, are your friends religious? If so, there are a number of websites that talk about circ from a religious point of view. You can PM me or someone else here with their religion and we can PM you appropriate links. If they are Christian, there are good links for Protestant, Catholic, LDS, etc.

Second, although they may live in a high-circ area NOW that is no guarantee that their family or their son will always live there. What if they decide to move to the West Coast, where far fewer than half of all boys are circed? What if their boy decides to move somewhere with a low circ rate when he is an adult? What if he decides to move to Europe for a few years, or Asia? The bottom line is, you can't make his penis match his peers' penises for the rest of his life because you just have no idea who his peers are going to be in 10, 20, 30 years time.

Similarly, if for some reason your friends decided to move to an area where they circumcise girls, would they cut any daughters they had to match the locals?

The bottom line is, circumcision is cosmetic surgery as implicitly recognized by the AAP, which calls circumcision non-therapeutic. There aren't enough cosmetic surgeries in the world that any parents could or should perform to try to make their children fit in and ensure they will never be teased. (Breast surgery if your daughter has too big or too small breasts? Lasik surgery so that they won't get called four eyes if they wear glasses? A nose job or an ear tuck if their nose is big or their ears stick out? Liposuction if they are heavier than the norm?). Far better to raise your children to be self-confident and proud of their own unique bodies and abilities so that they can stand up to bullies and be kind people who don't bully others for their differences.

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Old 01-12-2006, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky
Second, although they may live in a high-circ area NOW that is no guarantee that their family or their son will always live there. What if they decide to move to the West Coast, where far fewer than half of all boys are circed? What if their boy decides to move somewhere with a low circ rate when he is an adult? What if he decides to move to Europe for a few years, or Asia? The bottom line is, you can't make his penis match his peers' penises for the rest of his life because you just have no idea who his peers are going to be in 10, 20, 30 years time.

Similarly, if for some reason your friends decided to move to an area where they circumcise girls, would they cut any daughters they had to match the locals?

The bottom line is, circumcision is cosmetic surgery as implicitly recognized by the AAP, which calls circumcision non-therapeutic. There aren't enough cosmetic surgeries in the world that any parents could or should perform to try to make their children fit in and ensure they will never be teased. (Breast surgery if your daughter has too big or too small breasts? Lasik surgery so that they won't get called four eyes if they wear glasses? A nose job or an ear tuck if their nose is big or their ears stick out? Liposuction if they are heavier than the norm?). Far better to raise your children to be self-confident and proud of their own unique bodies and abilities so that they can stand up to bullies and be kind people who don't bully others for their differences.
The thing that is really bewildering me is my friend seems to understand all of the above. As far as the boy's future, I presented similar examples, such as "suppose he falls in love with a Canadian girl, from what I hear the rates are very low there! Or almost any other area for that matter."

I haven't heard back from her yet, I am going to hold off until I hear from her- I have provided her a LOT of info so far in part thanks to all of you.
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Old 01-12-2006, 09:28 PM
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Old 01-12-2006, 09:43 PM
 
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Also, D.O.C.'s video, "The Prepuce" is a great intro to the anatomy and physiology of the foreskin. You can find it on this page, part way down, under "Medical School Curriculum": http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/

It's about 20 minutes long, and a bit monotone, but facinating!

I think few parents could watch the video and still circumcise, knowing what they're taking away from their child.

Jen
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My last email to her came back to me, so I suspect she has blocked my email or something like that. I guess I overstepped my boundaries.

I hope I am wrong and it was just a computer glitch. I hope she reads what I sent.

I tried.

One thing I know for sure: Every incident I encounter dealing with circ makes me more and more adamant to be an intactivist. I never had a clue how passionate I would become about this.

I am really sad because I do not want to lose a friend over this, but I refuse to ever say to someone, "well, you have to make whatever choice is best for your family" If they choose to circ, I have to believe that they did not look at the information. I just don't understand how someone could adequately look at the information, then CHOOSE to do it.
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Old 01-13-2006, 10:55 AM
 
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Can you call her?

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Old 01-13-2006, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, I can call her. I probably will today, I just am nervous now.
I am gonna get some more coffee in me and give it a try... will let you know how it goes!
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Old 01-13-2006, 12:02 PM
 
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Good luck!

"To err is human, to forgive, canine." - Unknown
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Old 01-13-2006, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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She didn't block me! She said she has been reading some of it. So I will keep on! Thanks everyone.
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Old 01-13-2006, 01:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gridley13
"suppose he falls in love with a Canadian girl, from what I hear the rates are very low there! Or almost any other area for that matter."
Well I live in Canada and EVERY guy I have dated has been circumcised (and it's quite a large number, and really I'm not a tramp ). Also, every friend that has had a boy in the last 10 years has had them circumcised (I think that's only around 5 or 6 boys though). I know that many of the LLL and "crunchier" mamas have left their boys intact. Out of guys I am friends with, only ONE is intact (he's in his late 20's).

It is possible our rates are going down recently but I'd say you'd find a MUCH larger circumcised poplulation in guys 25-35 (the only age range I've either seen or discussed it with). I really hope, as you say, that our rates are low and perhaps this is just and oddity that I've run into all the "rare" circumcized males around here.

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Old 01-13-2006, 02:11 PM
 
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Gridley, maybe her spam/porn filter blocked your email? I know a lot of email programs will block anything remotely appearing sexual, and the foreskin issue tends to generate lots of blockable words!!

If you've already sent her a good chunk of stuff to digest, I would slow down the flow and talk to her in a little while about it rather than sending her even more stuff. Let it sink in, then talk to her (and hopefully her dh too).

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Old 01-13-2006, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was basing my Canadian info just on a chat I had with a Canadian friend. I really don't know what I am talking about

Quirky, the only reason I feel so desparate is she is due in less than 2 weeks and her midwife stripped her membranes yesterday!!
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechnoGranola
Well I live in Canada and EVERY guy I have dated has been circumcised (and it's quite a large number, and really I'm not a tramp ). Also, every friend that has had a boy in the last 10 years has had them circumcised (I think that's only around 5 or 6 boys though). I know that many of the LLL and "crunchier" mamas have left their boys intact. Out of guys I am friends with, only ONE is intact (he's in his late 20's).

It is possible our rates are going down recently but I'd say you'd find a MUCH larger circumcised poplulation in guys 25-35 (the only age range I've either seen or discussed it with). I really hope, as you say, that our rates are low and perhaps this is just and oddity that I've run into all the "rare" circumcized males around here.
Yes, your circ. rates have gone way down just in the last 20 years. 25-35 years ago, the vast majority of baby boys in Canada were circ'ed. I'm not sure if it ever got as high as the U.S., though.
Therefore, the males in your age group would mostly be circ'ed.
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