If a friend of your chooses to circ...do you stay friends with them? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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The Case Against Circumcision > If a friend of your chooses to circ...do you stay friends with them?
Lula's Mom's Avatar Lula's Mom 05:05 PM 05-03-2006
It depends on whether I know they had good information or not. Now that I have all the facts, I hold myself responsible for sharing that info with expecting friends. If they do it anyway, I want nothing more to do with them. Ever. I have an ex-friend that I tried to inform, and after many e-mails back and forth, he cheerfully told me "Sorry, looks like things aren't going to go your way!" That's it, it was all about me (take a look in the mirror, buddy!) He had his son circumcised- in the hospital- for "religious reasons". He's Catholic. If I see anyone who remotely resembles him, or hear his name, I feel revolted.

Of course, I have friends who did it before I knew them, and I don't hold it against them at all. I just figure they were uninformed, as was I at one time.

cristina63303's Avatar cristina63303 05:14 PM 05-03-2006
Happened to me. It's been over three years and it still haunts me.

She's my best friend and her DS2 and my DS2 were born within 24 hours of each other. We've known each other forever. Have shared so much. We have not stopped being friends. She lives in USA and I in Europe, so we don't get to see each other much.

Boy, now I feel like I need an excuse as to why we're still friends!

I guess I know the social group she moves in. I know her DH is circd. And her DS1 too. And as much as you and I clearly see this as child abuse, as mutilation, as human rights violation, the fact remains that it's socially acceptable so in the mainstream WE are the lacking credibility. It's really unfortunate, but our movement still has its work cut out until more and more people see the light and accept things for what they are.

As pp said, it's a very common mistake in USA

Besides that story, I have two other cases of circ'ers dear to me: my DS1's godmother circed her son ( for the record, this happened after my DS1 was christened) but then it's one of those typical stories: her dad is a doctor and since diabetes runs in her family he convinced her that it was safer to do it so he doesn't get it (ton of crap, I know, but who am I to know more about this than her medical dad?). So again, I can't judge her: she was mislead by an authority who happens to care about her more than anyone else.

The other case is my cousin, a surgeon. We've also always been very close and only recently, on a telcon after an evening of board surfing I asked him whether he thought circ should be done. He said yes because of penis cancer stats! Whatever. My take is that since he was circd, and he had his kids circd some 15 years back, he is not about to now question the whole thing (it's so irrelevant, anyway, just a piece of skin, right???) I'm still trying to figure out how to proceed on that one, but I think my preferred course of action will be to slowly but surely educate my MD cousin and maybe, only maybe have some effect on the advice he may give people on the subject in the future (his field has nothing to do with circ, though, but still).

It really is a tough dilemma.
kxsiven's Avatar kxsiven 05:33 PM 05-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Mexico Beach
I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.

I also would never pierce a baby's ears, but I have friends that do.
Let me clarify. If a man made **A Personal Decision** and got himself circumcised I would have absolutely no problem. Be my guest and surely I would not cut out my friendship with him.

As far as comparing ear piercing to genital cutting...??? Excuse me but I do not understand the logic behind it?

I have a half sister who was born in Santiago de Chile almost 30 years ago. My mom had no idea that in Chile it was a custom to pierce baby girl's ears after she is born. My mom was absolutely furious and got rid of the little ear rings at once. My sister's earlobes healed in few weeks. ( and 2 years ago she actually got her ears pierced).

How on earth can you compare that to what happens in infant circumcision???
momma2girls's Avatar momma2girls 05:43 PM 05-03-2006
I have one friend who I can remain friends with b/c I didn't talk to her at the time about circ so it doesn't feel right to me to hold that against her when she may not have known any better. Now my other friend I did speak with her about circ and gave her websites and things to look at and do the research and she never did and then proceeded to circ her son even after me asking her to let her son make that decision for himself. It has been incredibly difficult to deal with her but I have to since we work closely with each other. She has given me pics of him and I can't hardly look at him or keep them out b/c I think of what she put him through. Everytime she brings him up and says 'oh my poor baby ...whatever is wrong at the time' I think and you were fine with cutting his penis off? She will be moving out of state in a few months so that will probably be the end. I can't handle it.
Jenivere's Avatar Jenivere 05:50 PM 05-03-2006
I am now faced with this decision. I have very few close freinds and this woman has two kids, a boy 1 month younger than my girl and a girl that will be one soon. She breastfeeds, is openly supportive of my choice to homeschool and breastfeed, she is a SAHM and obviously well attached to her children. I found out today that her son in circumcised and while I was not mean about it I let her know that to me it's a really hot issue and I am tottaly against it. She made the decision with the knowledge she had at the time but her main reason seem to be fear of infection. Had I known her while she was pregnant and been able to inform her I might feel the need to drop her as a freind but meeting her after the fact, well I don't. She can't change what is allready done. She is hoping to have at least one more child but not for a little while so maybe between now and then I can educate her on the subject.
imgr8ful's Avatar imgr8ful 05:57 PM 05-03-2006
my sister is due any day w/ her first baby - don't know if it's a boy or a girl. i have tried everything to change their minds, but they still plan on circ'ing if it's a boy. :

i really really hope they are having a girl - i don't know how our relationship will survive if they circ.
rebeccalizzie's Avatar rebeccalizzie 06:01 PM 05-03-2006
I'm being faced with this right now and I'm having a really rough time with it. My DH's best friend's wife, who is totally AP, having a natural birth, very crunchy, homeschooled, the whole bit. Her DH is against it, no one in his family is circ'd (he's European) and no one in her family is either! She says it's because she knew *one guy* who had a horrible infection when he was 16 and had to be circ'd then and it was just the worst thing ever. I tried to compare it to my cervical cancer, or breast cancer, or really severe gangrene in limbs...no dice.

Sigh...she's really young and I'm really hoping she'll change her mind when she sees her perfect ds (she's due next week). She's planning to have her ped do it after 2 weeks because supposedly they can have anethesia and heal better once they are 2 weeks old. So maybe once she sees him and cares for him she won't be able to do it. Or I hope her DH can change her mind, or that he just flat out refuses to let her have it done (which is still possible, and DH is trying to gently steer him in that direction).

I really love this woman, and she's one of the few people that understand my crunchiness. So I'm praying she changes her mind.
peacelovingmama's Avatar peacelovingmama 06:20 PM 05-03-2006
Personally, I have a much harder time remaining friendly with someone who hits children. Circ is something that many people are ill-informed -- or even mis-informed -- about. Sometimes even by their doctors. Some people make a choice, later educate themselves, and then regret that choice. Having made parenting mistakes myself, I just don't feel judgmental enough to cut those people out of my life. Or, to be honest, even my Jewish friends who have circ'd.

But hitting is something that many parents do repeatedly. They make what I consider to be an immoral choice over and over again. I think that choice shows not just ignorance, but the decision to violate another human being with violence. So that is probably the one AP choice I have most trouble being flexible on with friendships.
betsu63's Avatar betsu63 06:35 PM 05-03-2006
While I understand that people feel strongly about what others decide for their children, I find it hard to understand that people would stop being friends with someone just because of one decision.There are just so many decisions to make when people have children. Things like co-sleeping, breastfeeding past a certain age, vaccination, letting kids be disruptive to others, letting children not be vaccinated and potentially get a disease. I'M NOT JUDGING PEOPLE WHO DO THESE THINGS! Do you ask potential friends (who have children already) if they have their boys circumsized and not be friends with them.
jessjgh1's Avatar jessjgh1 06:39 PM 05-03-2006
I'm another one that would stay friends... of course, it depends on the person and what there "reasoning" is. I'm very lucky that the majority of my friends have left their sons intact... No one I know that choose circumcision did so for purely cosmetic reasons, or for social reasons. It was a combination of factors, fears, and myths their doctors did not break.

I blame the doctor's and medical professionals that present circumcision as a viable 'option' and do not educate parents on how normal the foreskin is. That do not explain the risks in real terms or share the function of the foreskin to prospective parents.

I know too many parents that have gone to a medical doctor and asked their opinion on this issue and have not been advised to keep their son intact. Coupled with the myths they know and a few internet searches, they are either overwhelmed by all the conflictining information and opinions that they are faced with-- and choose what is most comfortable with and used to -- or they find their way to a pro-circ area or group and find information that makes that decision look like a medical choice.

It makes me sick, and sad, but I understand why they would be unwilling to do something that they think (and are told) is risky.

I will continue to be friends with them and when the opportunities present, I will try to find out what information they were missing, so that I can try to share more appropriate information with my other friends and people. I won't be afraid to share that my son is intact and that I'm happy with the decision the more and more I learn about this issue. But I wouldn't be purposefully harsh or judgemental, just hoping that something I say might resonate with them and make them look into the issue once more.

I would have a hard time being friends with someone if I felt their choice was thoughtless and careless, but my best friend did circ her son, and she asked me for some information--- what I didn't realize was that after she then started calling all the pediatric urologists in her area to get their opinions. And of course, all of them told her she'd be better off circumcising at birth to avoid problems later. I know a lot more now then I did when I was talking to her.

What am I going to do, tell her she's an idiot for trusting the advice of a specialist? Sorry, should I throw 28 years of friendship away? I don't think so.

I STILL have doubts on this issue... because sometimes it just seems so barbaric that it is impossible to believe that circ happens, and such circ happens all the time, then maybe it must not be so crazy... but sadly, I know that circ is barbaric, I just have to be angry that it is ingrained in our society and find ways to rock the boat.

And you know what sometimes occurs to me when we have people posting on minor problems (and some not so minor) that I think it is sometimes a good thing that only the strongest of us get through this battle, because we have to stand up to doctors misdiagnosing and doctors prematurley retracting, and all the naysayers, and 'diaper rash' episodes that we think are just that, but not sure... because everyone told us to expect infections. Then we hear posts about painful erections, or some pain when adhesions are loosening (and I've gone through this a little with my son) and then there can be doubts.

Sorry to be pessemistic, but those are each many opportunities for one doctor to come in and say, hmmm. circumcision now. And that's one more parent that can say, I left my son intact and he needed to be circed later.

That's a circle of violence that is hard to break- and maybe sometimes it is just as well that some people don't opt to be the change maker.

Just something that occurs to me every now and again, when I'm in a bad mood.

But what is heartening to me is that my best friend, even though she made a different decision, knows enough about the issue that she is likley to present positive information to a pregnant friend of hers... or even tell that person about me. If I had shut her out, I don't think that kind of opportunity would ever present itself.

I do think circ is child abuse, but in most cases, I believe it is the doctors performing and encouraging that have blood on their hands.

Jessica
Kathryn's Avatar Kathryn 07:01 PM 05-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by betsu63
While I understand that people feel strongly about what others decide for their children, I find it hard to understand that people would stop being friends with someone just because of one decision.There are just so many decisions to make when people have children. Things like co-sleeping, breastfeeding past a certain age, vaccination, letting kids be disruptive to others, letting children not be vaccinated and potentially get a disease. I'M NOT JUDGING PEOPLE WHO DO THESE THINGS! Do you ask potential friends (who have children already) if they have their boys circumsized and not be friends with them.
Our point is, IT IS NOT A PARENTS CHOICE. There is a huge difference between slicing off a large part of your childs genitals and co-sleeping or any other thing you mentioned. Do you have a husband with circ problems that affect your marriage? I do as do many women around the US and on this board. IT AFFECTS THE CHILD FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE. This is NOT something you are doing FOR your child or FOR your family. This is something you are doing TO them. You are altering their physical life forever. This is a HUGE desicion. Would you stay friends with a person who had their daughters labia cut off "just because"?
peacelovingmama's Avatar peacelovingmama 07:26 PM 05-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathryn
Our point is, IT IS NOT A PARENTS CHOICE. There is a huge difference between slicing off a large part of your childs genitals and co-sleeping or any other thing you mentioned. Do you have a husband with circ problems that affect your marriage? I do as do many women around the US and on this board. IT AFFECTS THE CHILD FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE. This is NOT something you are doing FOR your child or FOR your family. This is something you are doing TO them. You are altering their physical life forever. This is a HUGE desicion. Would you stay friends with a person who had their daughters labia cut off "just because"?
If the criteria is whether a decision "affects the child for the rest of [his/her] life," then most of these areas do. Not bfing has significant health effects that last a lifetime. Hitting children has been shown to do significant damage to self-esteem, to cause various behavioral problems and, in too many cases, to lead to horrid abuse. Vaccinations may do irreversible damage.

My point is just that, in every one of these areas which we are all so passionate about, we could decide to end friendships because permanent damage is being done to a child. For me, personally, if I feel the person is otherwise good and moral and a loving parent, ignorance (or genuine disagreement with my moral values) is not going to end an otherwise healthy friendship.

And to answer the question about FGM - yes, I would stay friends with someone who did that, under certain conditions (cultural pressures, lack of education, genuinely loved and thought they were doing the best thing for the child, etc.). I think it behooves us to educate more than to judge and alienate people.
Kathryn's Avatar Kathryn 07:31 PM 05-03-2006
I'm not ending friendships because I feel like making a point to anyone. I honestly cannot look at someone the same way when I know they've preformed cosmetic surgery on a newborn usually without pain relief. I can't be around them, therefore, the friendship is over.
Acksiom's Avatar Acksiom 07:37 PM 05-03-2006
It would depend upon the friend, but usually I'd maintain the friendship. What I'd do as a consequence, however, would depend upon whether or not I had spoken with them about the issue beforehand. If I hadn't, I'd leave it alone for the most part, unless and until they were having another boy (or child of deliberately undermined gender), at which point I'd try to get them properly informed, and convinced of protecting their sons' (or daughters', if I knew anyone who was likely to have their little girls cut as well), genital integrity.

If, however, I'd already tried to accomplish that previously, and they'd had the kid/s cut anyways, then I'd still maintain the friendship so that I could keep after them about it.

In short, if they can't handle my actions, let them abandon their friendship towards me. What they do doesn't change my committment to them -- which, IMO, includes efforts to keep them on the true and virtuous course in life.

Another advantage of this approach, in my estimation, is how it tends to force discussion of the issue throughout the general circle of friends. People end up having to talk about it, because if they know whenever we have a group get-together, I'm gonna be on, say, A&B's cases about it off and on throughout, they have to reconcile their committments to principles like inclusivity and so forth. What do they do -- not invite someone because I'm not going to let a mutual friend or friends off the hook? My friends are definitely going to have a conversation at that point about just how justified my behavior is, and I can guarantee you they won't all side against me -- plenty of them 'get it' already.

Let those who know better, but fail to do the right thing, be the ones to choose ostracization and isolation for themselves. I won't be the one to give up on them.
LotusBirthMama's Avatar LotusBirthMama 07:39 PM 05-03-2006
My two best friends each had a boy in the last 3 years and I shared my feelings on circ and they know/knew how opposed I am to it. They both circed their respective sons. Do I like it? No. Did it sadden me? Yup. But they are amazing women and I can't define my entire relationship with them based on one thing. I love them, I love their sons, and would never give up my friendships with them over it. Just me.
LotusBirthMama's Avatar LotusBirthMama 07:44 PM 05-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathryn
I'm not ending friendships because I feel like making a point to anyone. I honestly cannot look at someone the same way when I know they've preformed cosmetic surgery on a newborn usually without pain relief. I can't be around them, therefore, the friendship is over.
Not being snarky, but have you had to test this? Have you had really close friends that you needed to walk away from over the circumcision of their child? I hope not, because then that means maybe your friends aren't circing!

In my PP I mentioned my two closest friends did circ their now toddler sons. I love them so much and they bring so much to my life that to "break up" with them would be like losing my sisters. I don't know if it would be worth it...yk? Like, I can't change what they did, but to no longer be their friend...it boggles my mind.
paquerette's Avatar paquerette 08:14 PM 05-03-2006
LBM, I'm curious about your two friends. They're otherwise gentle, loving, caring parents? And they're otherwise kind, empathetic people? And you guys had detailed discussions about the unnecessary cruelty of RIC? How did they justify their decisions to you (if they did?) I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around what could posess an otherwise more or less good person to do such a thing. The issue with the person I know, it became apparant that this was just another in a string of bad things about her (she's bigotted, anti-intellectual, selfish. She's gonna CIO and spank and who knows what else. It took the circ argument to open my eyes. : ) But I guess I got it in my head that this is a good benchmark of what kind of person someone is. How could a good person make a well informed choice to non-religiously circ? I just don't get it.
tireesix's Avatar tireesix 09:49 PM 05-03-2006
I don't care if someone is ill informed or not, if a foreskin really caused so many problems it wouldn't be there in the first place...... Seeing as though it is there then it obviously has a purpose.It does not take a genius to work that one out....

I refuse to be friends with anyone who circs unnecessarily etc etc etc. Its not just about disagreeing with their so called 'personal choice', its about what they have inflicted, unnecessarily, upon a vulnerable child. I cannot be friends with someone who thinks that circumcision, breastfeeding, ear piercing etc is a personal decision when in fact, it isn't their decision at all, the child has a right too.
jessjgh1's Avatar jessjgh1 12:42 AM 05-04-2006
Well, I'm not LBM, but I can relate....
Quote:
LBM, I'm curious about your two friends. They're otherwise gentle, loving, caring parents? And they're otherwise kind, empathetic people? And you guys had detailed discussions about the unnecessary cruelty of RIC? How did they justify their decisions to you (if they did?) I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around what could posess an otherwise more or less good person to do such a thing.
Yes, I have 2 friends that fit this bill, with a few exceptions. Friend #1 asked her doctors and called pediatric urological specialists, and was told information that reinforced her concerns about infections, cancer, etc-- the things listed on the AAP statement. She is an amazing person, mother, a wonderful teacher and child advocate. All she wants to do is stay at home with her son, but she hasn't been able to do that, and she is doing everything she can do to do that as soon as possible.


Friend #2 is a pediatrician and does not cosleep because when she was a resident she attended to an infant that died while cosleeping- and that effected her in a way to say, no never for me. As a pediatrician she supports her parents that choose to cosleep, but says that she wouldn't be able to fall asleep herself with her child. And her resolve was tested with this because dd#1 had 'colic'. So she walked around for hours at night with babe in a sling, because her daughter wouldn't stop crying without the movement of the sling too. But she is an amazing mother and a breastfeeding and pro-intact advocate. Unfortunatly, her dh is not on board on circing and if their child is a boy, they might do it. The conversations were stalled because dc#1 was a girl.

So for her, I still have time to ask her more and question it, but I know that she is not 'horrified' by circumcisions and does not consider them abuse. I think she looks at them like 'elective shots' (and yes, I know that no-vax is an extremely valid choice). She probably sees about 50/50 at her practice and I know she did mention that she sometimes saw circ complications/problems for certain practitioners, but did tell me about one of the doctors she knows that does them-a woman she really likes for her gentle manner with patients (yes, quite contradictory, but she made the point that this doctor is very calming to the babies-- other doctors she knows leaves the boys in the circumstraint alone and go on wiht their business, so the babes are hysterical the whole time).

So maybe I can try to ask her about this more and see if it is still open for discussion.

Unfortunatly, in America it is still considered a parent's right to choose this, as much as we here can hate it, that is the truth.

I think I have to reach out to people and get them to understand this issue before I can condemn them for doing something society considers 'normal'. And it IS like many other issues (FGM, foot binding, other atrocities). There are times when these things are/were acceptable. Unfortunatly, we live IN a time where circumcision is acceptable and it is hard to easily break this down when there are many 'facts' out there that seem to put circ and intactness on equal footing.

The AAP statement is horrible for us to fight. I for one wouldn't expect any momma to take my word/advice over the AAP's weak statement that says there are some medical benefits to circ...

Jessica
Bm31's Avatar Bm31 12:45 AM 05-04-2006
My sister circ'd my nephew and I didn't speak with her for two years. If it weren't for my niece being born last July with a serious heart condition, and my sister calling me in tears, I'm not sure I ever would have again.
Canadianmommax3's Avatar Canadianmommax3 12:54 AM 05-04-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by betsu63
While I understand that people feel strongly about what others decide for their children, I find it hard to understand that people would stop being friends with someone just because of one decision.There are just so many decisions to make when people have children. Things like co-sleeping, breastfeeding past a certain age, vaccination, letting kids be disruptive to others, letting children not be vaccinated and potentially get a disease. I'M NOT JUDGING PEOPLE WHO DO THESE THINGS! Do you ask potential friends (who have children already) if they have their boys circumsized and not be friends with them.
that is what i am curious about, i became friends with a woman at work i have been there 14 years she was a new person, she is total opposite (didn't breastfeed, certainly didn't cosleep) not sure if her son is circed or not. (her son is 10 )
Really not my business, i can't see myself saying hey can't be friends with you unless you fit my criteria here's a list fill it out and get back to me!
I think of what i could be missing out on by not having her in my life! But that's just me
Apwannabe's Avatar Apwannabe 12:55 AM 05-04-2006
Of course I would not stop being friends with someone because of that! My best friend has twin boys that are circ'd. We have been friends since we were 4 years old I should stop being her friend over one decsion. That is crazy!
kate~mom's Avatar kate~mom 12:57 AM 05-04-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by LotusBirthMama
Not being snarky, but have you had to test this? Have you had really close friends that you needed to walk away from over the circumcision of their child? I hope not, because then that means maybe your friends aren't circing!

In my PP I mentioned my two closest friends did circ their now toddler sons. I love them so much and they bring so much to my life that to "break up" with them would be like losing my sisters. I don't know if it would be worth it...yk? Like, I can't change what they did, but to no longer be their friend...it boggles my mind.
: that is exactly my experience. i have been struggling while reading this thread, about exactly how to explain my feelings, and you have summed it up quite clearly.

yes, i feel HORRIBLY for their sons AND for their personal struggles in coming to the decision they made, but it's not worth losing a wonderful friendship over.
LotusBirthMama's Avatar LotusBirthMama 01:05 AM 05-04-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by paquerette
LBM, I'm curious about your two friends. They're otherwise gentle, loving, caring parents? And they're otherwise kind, empathetic people? And you guys had detailed discussions about the unnecessary cruelty of RIC? How did they justify their decisions to you (if they did?) I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around what could posess an otherwise more or less good person to do such a thing. The issue with the person I know, it became apparant that this was just another in a string of bad things about her (she's bigotted, anti-intellectual, selfish. She's gonna CIO and spank and who knows what else. It took the circ argument to open my eyes. : ) But I guess I got it in my head that this is a good benchmark of what kind of person someone is. How could a good person make a well informed choice to non-religiously circ? I just don't get it.
Well, the first friend was pregnant shortly after my DD was born. I was still "new" to the whole natural scene and not very comfortable discussing it, but I printed out a bunch of stuff for her to read. I don't know that she did read it in detail, but she had said "Look, my other son is, every man I know is, its not a huge thing to me." This mama's son is now nearly three, they co sleep, she is still nursing, and she is a general all around awesome mom.

The second friend wavered, her partner wanted to do it...I think they were leaning towards leaving him intact, when my friend's dad called her. He told her that he (the dad) was intact and had so many issues and trouble that he urged them to circ his grandson. Now, I have no idea WHAT his penis problems were, but it was enough to tip the scales towards circing.

I really do not consider it to be a benchmark of wht kind of person you are. Sorry, but I don't. I plan to leave any and all sons intact and hope that they leave their sons intact and on and on thru the ages. Thats all I can do...

And, I don't have enough AP friends to go weeding them out based on one thing.
LotusBirthMama's Avatar LotusBirthMama 01:07 AM 05-04-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bm31
My sister circ'd my nephew and I didn't speak with her for two years. If it weren't for my niece being born last July with a serious heart condition, and my sister calling me in tears, I'm not sure I ever would have again.
Thats funny you should share this! I was just talking to my twin sister about this thread. I told her i could deal with my closest friends' circing their boys..but if my sister did it...

I dunno...

Maybe b/c that would be my nephew? I just think I would feel a lot more strongly about it coming from her...
MidwifeErika's Avatar MidwifeErika 01:08 AM 05-04-2006
This is a tough one! So far we have been lucky and our friends who have had boys have listened, educated themselves, and left their boys intact!!! That is such a relief when it happens as then I know there won't be emotions getting in the way. However, we have a couple that are our very, very close friends and we are 95% certain that when they do have kids and if they do have a boy, they will circ. Even after hearing our information on the subject and having discussions about it, I think they thought our choice to leave our DS intact was weird. I can hope and pray that they change their minds before ever having a boy though. And I think even if they do it, we will probably still be friends. I will be very disappointed and it may take me some time to get over their actions, but I *think* we will still be friends.
MidwifeErika's Avatar MidwifeErika 01:11 AM 05-04-2006
Oh, I forgot to say though, we have chosen to not be friends with someone based on the fact that they were *performing* the circumcisions. Now if any of my other friends take up jobs performing circumcisions in order to make some extra $$$, absolutely I would never in a million years be their friend again. Someone who abuses babies for money I just can't hang with.
drnmd1216's Avatar drnmd1216 01:13 AM 05-04-2006
Well for my two friends that recently circ'ed their boys...I KNOW that their main reason was bc their dh/boyfriend wanted it done and insisted on it being done. I feel bad...yes even guilty that I couldn't persuade my two friends to be strong enough to vehemently fight their dh/boyfriend for what was right, but I also remember what it was like fighting my dh tooth and nail at first over the circ. issue. We got into major major emotional fights about it bc he felt so strongly for it...and now after a year learning about circ, he knows how wrong his thinking was but its been a long process. Even after our son was born, he said a little part of him still wanted it done and its not until recently that he has become in an intactivist.

No, I won't stop being friends with my them both though bc I don't think either one of them acting maliciously doing so....I feel it was more my fault bc I failed at convincing their dh's it was the wrong thing to do. I know how hard it is to fight against the "well it happened to me and I am perfectly fine and I like being circ'ed" argument. Its definately not a fun place to be trying to reason with that kind of thinking bc you have to convince them that their thinking is wrong, their penis is wrong and that circ. is wrong in general. Yes, it makes perfect sense to you and I bc we have all spent so much time and energy reading it all, watching it all, and talking about it all.

I am jealous of those of you that must have an easy time convincing others not to circ....I think it would be FABULOUS if one day I could show a friend an article about keeping intact and have them choose not to circ!! unfortunately, I have had such a hard time getting through to anyone here. I am right now working on my sister and best friend, who aren't even pg, just bc I feel like once I find out someone is having a boy, its already too late...I just don't have enough time to get deeply enough into it to convince everyone its wrong.

Those of you that would dismiss your friends without a second thought, don't you have hope that you could change their views for subsequent children. These are both my friends' first babies. There seems to be a good number of people here that circ'ed one child and went on to not circ others. I just don't feel its the end for my friends...I will continue to educate them on being intact and its benefits, while mentioning the downfalls of circ and such. I haven't lost all my hope yet for them.
Apwannabe's Avatar Apwannabe 01:22 AM 05-04-2006
Quote:
My sister circ'd my nephew and I didn't speak with her for two years. If it weren't for my niece being born last July with a serious heart condition, and my sister calling me in tears, I'm not sure I ever would have again.



Thats funny you should share this! I was just talking to my twin sister about this thread. I told her i could deal with my closest friends' circing their boys..but if my sister did it...

I dunno...

Maybe b/c that would be my nephew? I just think I would feel a lot more strongly about it coming from her...

But doesn't that mean giving up any relationship with your nephew as well? That just doesn't seem to make sense to me, It seems if you ( collective you) were so worried about him in this issue you would to remain in his life, no matter what. My little sister (11 months) isn't breastfeed. There is no reason for herr not to be. I tried for months to convince my dad;s girlfriend to breastfeed her. She completely understands that it is best for her but she doesn't do it. It is maddening. I would never give up my relationship with my sister over it though.
kxsiven's Avatar kxsiven 02:26 AM 05-04-2006
I'm still confused wy circumcision is called personal choice? Or compared to things like breastfeeding? Don't get me wrong, breast is best for baby, absolutely, and pretty much everybody here in Scandinavia breastfeed eventhough we do not have any 'big movement' or fuss here. But. I do not understand how anyone can compare formula feeding to what is done in circumcision?
As far as hitting, if I knew that my friend was hitting her child I would call to child protective services since anykind of physical violence towards children is forbidden by law.

And still...if a child get swapped to his buttocks, it will not leave the damage that circumcision does(not that I accept hitting, absolutely not).

This is not about judging. This is about my personal choice with whom I want to be friends with. Obviously some one who would do such a horrid thing to a child has so totally different values in life that there is no point. I would not end friendships to make somekind of point. I just don't want to be around people who have so totally different view of life.

Like Kathryn said, it affects to the child rest of his life in horrible ways. Not only has he gone through horrible pain right after he has born but he will never experience sex as nature intended.

Maybe this is a cultural difference - after all Americans have lived with circumcision 100 years where as here it has always been concidered child abuse?
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