If a friend of your chooses to circ...do you stay friends with them? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 307 Old 05-04-2006, 02:32 AM
 
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I dunno.... phasing out sounds about right. I lost all respect for my one friend about the purely cosmetic/selfish reasons she gave and haven't talked to her (I wrote an e-mail to her last) in over a month. Soo maybe she ended the friendship for me I'm not broken-hearted. All my other friends have intact children

maybe she decided to leave him intact though.... as long as I don't know then I can hope, right? She really didn't like being "forced" to admit (for the first time, maybe) that she was choosing to lob off a useful part of her son b/c SHE thinks it's "prettier" that way. Whatever though. Phasing out would have happened in the long run after the circ anyhow... Maybe she doesn't want to be friends with someone whose future sons will have "ugly" penises I don't want her sleeping with my children anyhow or influencing them to mutilate my future grandchildren either!

love and peace.

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#62 of 307 Old 05-04-2006, 02:33 AM
 
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I tried to save our good friend's son 4.5 years ago. I hadn't done much research on circ at the time so I don't think I made a very persuasive argument. I did try to give them the Fleiss articles when they were visiting and the mom kind of looked them over but that was about it. I found out they circed when we visited when the baby was a week old. The dad seemed to think the whole thing was really funny and make jokes about it for months (he knew how I felt which almost bothered me more than them circing). We did stay friends with them and after a few months they rarely mentioned it. I tried 2 times after the baby was circed to try to convince them to not circ future children (they want 4) but the dad got so mad and defensive that I pretty much lost any credibility with them. The mom was convinced the hospital wouldn't offer it if it was a bad thing and I could tell the dad just wanted it done because he was. He even told me the whole circ was a really neat experience (I think he was blocking a lot of it out). I know for the first month after his son was born he seemed to show some regret because he did almost all the diaper changes. He called it a father/son bonding moment. Anyway I wound up watching their son when they went to the hospital to have baby #2. Waiting that day to find out the baby's gender was so awful. Every time I changed the little boy's diaper it made me so sad what they would do to the baby if it was a boy. Every time I changed him I'd go cry in the bathroom so he couldn't see. After almost 24 hours they called to say the baby was a girl. It was so emotionally draining for me and I'm really kind of glad we moved away from them. It's not that I can't see why they circed. They are pretty mainstream and the dad seemed unwilling to look at any info on not doing it and the mom seemed to just be going along with him. It's just too hard for me to deal with. They are having baby #3 this summer (also unknown gender- they never find out). I don't even want to hear what they have. I don't even want to think about the torture that little boy will go through just to match his daddy.

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#63 of 307 Old 05-04-2006, 03:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Apwannabe
But doesn't that mean giving up any relationship with your nephew as well? That just doesn't seem to make sense to me, It seems if you ( collective you) were so worried about him in this issue you would to remain in his life, no matter what. My little sister (11 months) isn't breastfeed. There is no reason for herr not to be. I tried for months to convince my dad;s girlfriend to breastfeed her. She completely understands that it is best for her but she doesn't do it. It is maddening. I would never give up my relationship with my sister over it though.
I think you have to draw the line somewhere, but it might also help if I put my situation in perspective with some further explanation.

First off, in my case my sister and her family live 900 miles away, them on the east coast and me in the midwest. With the lack of proximity, that probably made it easier to imagine we'd never have a real regular, close relationship. That does not mean that I wasn't looking forward to my first nephew (and now a niece). I take every opportunity to show off their pictures to anyone I can. Regardless of what my sister did, I can't begin to describe how much I love them even though I've never set eyes on them in person. They will be as close to ever having children as I'll probably get, though since then I have become a godfather to the daughter of some good friends and I also love her very much. I see them/her very often and am putting $$ away to see that she will be able to get whatever education she desires in the future.

I was always very close to my sister and she was one of my best friends in the world. Even with the distance, we always talked weekly and managed to see each other on vacations once or twice a year. She was the first one who I revealed my history of the botched circ's I had to. She actually cried about it when I told her, and she's the one who urged me to confront our mother to fill in any missing details that she could. I asked her to never to do such a thing to any sons she might have, and she said it would definitely make her do some research and think about it.

But when my nephew was born about two years later, it was obvious she didn't. She's a very successful and intelligent person, but also somewhat superficial and headstrong and unable to overcome the cultural conformity involved. In the end, she boasted to our other sister that, "There's nothing wrong with my son's penis; he looks like daddy!" : Yeah, the daddy she complains is "too small and comes too quick, but I love him anyway."

It absolutely made me sick when I saw the pics she emailed to my mother. One of them showed the poor kid with a bloody gauze over his groin area. I felt like she stabbed me right through the heart. I mailed a card and gift, but I was unable to call her after seeing that. I might have even been able to work my way past it, but she called me about three weeks later; I think my mother relayed to her that I was upset with what she did to my nephew. She went on the offensive with it and said, "If you don't like it that I had my son circumsized then you don't need to call or write or send any gifts."

I might have been able to find a way to accept it, but there was NO WAY I was going to be bullied by her ultimatum that I like what she ( she didn't try to blame her dh or anyone else for her choice) did. I just said, "Ok," and hung up on her.

That started a two year silence that only ended last July after my niece was born with a dire heart condition (has had two surgeries, but is progressing well ). She called in tears with a lot of "I'm so sorry's." I told her we shouldn't worry about that for now, that her daughter was what was important right then.

I'm not sure exactly what she was sorry for, but I can only hope she now sees the folly of putting my nephew at needless risk for superficial reasons after all the REAL problems they've had to face with my niece. But I don't know; the topic has not been raised in the last 10 mos. as we've re-established our relationship.

They are coming for a visit at the end of this month. I am SOOO happy to have this chance at a relationship with my nephew and niece. I am counting the days until they arrive; I can hardly wait! However, I am also very apprehensive about the whole thing, but determined not to start a discussion or fight over it. I will leave that up to her; at some point I do expect a sincere apology for how she treated me (and to my nephew someday for what she did without his consent). Until that happens, I don't think we will ever have the relationship we once had.

Sorry so long. But I just wanted to show it wasn't something that I did lightly or because I was a militant anti-circ that wanted to punish her for disagreeing with me. Regardless of what happens with our relationship, I will put my feelings for what she did aside so that I can be part of my niece and nephew's lives. I can't wait to meet them!!!
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#64 of 307 Old 05-04-2006, 09:51 AM
 
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Those of you that would dismiss your friends without a second thought, don't you have hope that you could change their views for subsequent children.
Without a second thought? Are you kidding? Do you think this is an EASY thing to do?
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#65 of 307 Old 05-04-2006, 10:25 AM
 
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I think context and timing are everything. Would I refuse to have someone as a friend because she circed her kids before I met her? No. Three of my really close friends have circed sons - two of them have gone on to leave sons intact in part or in whole because of my advocacy, and the third has three circed boys and is expecting a fourth baby who will be left intact, again in large part because of me. They are all three wonderful mamas who weren't informed and made mistakes.

If any of them had decided once we'd met and once I'd given them info on circ to circ their subsequent boys to match daddy or their brothers....then I think I would have had no choice but to let the friendship go because I just wouldn't feel the same about her any more and wouldn't be able to enjoy her company.

I don't think it's at all worthwhile to argue about which is worse, circ, CIO, hitting kids, or not BF (I'm talking choosing FF for no good reason here, not a failed BF relationship or necessity like cancer or adoption). We have been down that road before. I think all of them are human rights violations and it only pits us against each other when we should be united against these abusive acts.

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#66 of 307 Old 05-04-2006, 02:57 PM
 
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Breastfeeding was the closest thing I could think of to compare it too. And in a way some of you are right if my friend who circ'd her boys had decided to circ her daughter I wouldn't stay friends with her. I guess because society says circing is ok it is still in my head that is. I need to change that.



Bm31, I can completely see where you are coming from with that story.

I am glad you got your relationship back with your sister and wish you guys the best.
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#67 of 307 Old 05-04-2006, 04:14 PM
 
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I chose to keep my son intact but I have many friends and family who chose to circ and no, I wouldn't stop being friends with them because of it. Do I agree with it? No. It makes me so sad but I don't have control over their decisions. As long as drs give parents the right to circ then it is a parental decision. I went back and forth during my pregnancy on whether to circ or not because I wasn't informed. Dh is circ'd...and almost every man I knew was. It took a lot to convince dh not to circ but my son is 4.5 and intact. One of my close friends since high school got pg last year (finally after years of trying) and when she found out it was a boy I talked to her about not circ'ing and she listened but a few weeks later she called me to tell me that they had decided to circ. Hers was a religious reason (she's not Jewish but in the Bible when Jesus says "do as I do" and I guess since she felt Jesus had it done that it was what she needed to do. She was very upfront with me that she was concerned that I wouldn't want to be friends with her or that I wouldn't love her little boy because of this decision. They spoke to their pastor, friends who were intact (they also spoke with her dh's friend who is intact but had "issues"). Anyways, I was very, very disappointed when I was told that and walked around wondering if I *could* be friends with her. But you know what? I love her. I prayed for years for that little baby and I was not going to let something out of my control change that. So far he has not had any issues with his circ. He is a precious little boy and there is no way that I could not be in his life. Period. Now had she done it "just because" like some of my other friends and family I would have been more hurt. But they looked at both sides and made the decision they were comfortable with...even if it wasn't the one I would have chosen.
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#68 of 307 Old 05-04-2006, 09:27 PM
 
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No. I wouldn't stay friends.

Circ is rare here - if I found out a friend had either her boy or girl circumcised it would be similar to hearing they'd shoved the child's legs through a meat grinder. First of all - it's not going to happen, second of all it would be horrifying.
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#69 of 307 Old 05-04-2006, 11:07 PM
 
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Well, I already posted that I have stayed friends but hearing thing like this from Caloli:
Quote:
No. I wouldn't stay friends.
Circ is rare here - if I found out a friend had either her boy or girl circumcised it would be similar to hearing they'd shoved the child's legs through a meat grinder. First of all - it's not going to happen, second of all it would be horrifying.
really reminds me of the differences of living where circumcision is accepted (US) and almost every where else.

This was the first realization that I had that tipped the scales-- that circumcision is not the norm in most countries.

FWIW

Jessica

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#70 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 01:32 AM
 
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I'm in the US and it's not common here (NW)... my parents really want us to move to Georgia or S. Carolina, but the circ acceptance is so high there... that would be the hardest part of moving there for me Then I'd have to deal with losing friends over it more than I have had to so far.

love and peace.

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: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#71 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 02:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LotusBirthMama
My two best friends each had a boy in the last 3 years and I shared my feelings on circ and they know/knew how opposed I am to it. They both circed their respective sons. Do I like it? No. Did it sadden me? Yup. But they are amazing women and I can't define my entire relationship with them based on one thing. I love them, I love their sons, and would never give up my friendships with them over it. Just me.
I guess I don't understand what's so amazing about a person who, knowing that there is no medical reason, chooses to mutilate her child. To me, this decision is evidence of a fundamental aspect of that person's character. It signifies a person with major boundary issues - a person who thinks his/her child is his/hers to do with as he/she pleases.

I don't grill my friends about whether or not they circumcised their boys. It's come up in conversation and I know that they haven't which makes sense to me because we're very much alike in our views on children as autonomous beings. There are two women I know who circumcised their boys. They manifest those issues in other undesirable aspects of their parenting, as well - excessive control for both and pretty routine spanking for one. I don't wish to be friends with either.
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#72 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 02:42 AM
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It's hard enough to forgive family members for circ'ing............no way I'd forgive a friend. (talking about friends who circ'd after all my info given to them, not talking about friends who circ'd before I knew them.) One of the most amazing women I know left her second son intact (because of my advocacy) after circ'ing her first. I think that really deepens a friendship.......realizing that this person is strong enough to stand up to society and do what's right for her son. (It has also really deepened my love and respect for my sister who recently had a baby and left him intact!)

So, for me, not only does it end friendships when people choose to circ, it also deepens friendships when people honor their sons' birthright.

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#73 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 10:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dragonfly
I guess I don't understand what's so amazing about a person who, knowing that there is no medical reason, chooses to mutilate her child. To me, this decision is evidence of a fundamental aspect of that person's character. It signifies a person with major boundary issues - a person who thinks his/her child is his/hers to do with as he/she pleases.
See, I guess this is where I disagree. I do not think that it (the decision to circ) forms the core of my friend's being. She isn't amazing b/c she circed...she's amazing b/c of the million other facets of her personality and soul. I cannot define somene by this one act. And I don't see her having boundary issues with her children either.

I understand that circumcision deeply affects a lot of women on this board. I will never have it done to a child. My son is circed, but it was not my decision, and it still pains me. But I don't think that every person who had a son circed is an evil, control freak, no boundary, person. I just don't. And I don't hate my friends over the status of their sons' penises.
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#74 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 10:09 AM
 
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#75 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 10:53 AM
 
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Considering all my close IRL friends' sons and my sister's son are circed, yes I stay friends with them. I'd have no friends or only be friends with moms of girls if I didn't stay friends with circing parents. There's a lot of things some of my friends do in their childrearing that I don't agree with or do (and many of them think I'm a bit crazy because of all I do do) but we're not friends because of how we parent. We're friends because we get along well with each other. I don't have to agree with everything they do.
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#76 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 10:54 AM
 
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this is a hard thing. I have a very good friend who circ'ed her first (we didnt know each other then, though) and now is pg with her second. The thing is, she's not finding out the sex, and I have talked to her about circ, she knows how strongly I feel about it, but she tells me she's thinking about it. I know I'll be friends with her either way, because she's my friend and I love her, plus we also have tons of other things in common. It's just hard when you know how much it can hurt a baby
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#77 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 10:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LotusBirthMama
See, I guess this is where I disagree. I do not think that it (the decision to circ) forms the core of my friend's being. She isn't amazing b/c she circed...she's amazing b/c of the million other facets of her personality and soul. I cannot define somene by this one act. And I don't see her having boundary issues with her children either.

I understand that circumcision deeply affects a lot of women on this board. I will never have it done to a child. My son is circed, but it was not my decision, and it still pains me. But I don't think that every person who had a son circed is an evil, control freak, no boundary, person. I just don't. And I don't hate my friends over the status of their sons' penises.

I totally agree!!!! I have circ'ing friends that are wonderful mothers. I promise you THEY BELIEVE THEY ARE DOING THE BEST FOR THEIR BABIES. It's misinformation and ignorance, not wanting to hurt their babies.
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#78 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 11:18 AM
 
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Considering all my close IRL friends' sons and my sister's son are circed, yes I stay friends with them. I'd have no friends or only be friends with moms of girls if I didn't stay friends with circing parents.
Seriously. I would have zero friends! And that would be no good
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#79 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 12:08 PM
 
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I totally agree!!!! I have circ'ing friends that are wonderful mothers. I promise you THEY BELIEVE THEY ARE DOING THE BEST FOR THEIR BABIES. It's misinformation and ignorance, not wanting to hurt their babies.
Doesn't that say something about their thought processes, though? I'm not trying to insult your friends; I'm trying to understand how someone can believe such a thing in the face of overwhelming evidence that it isn't so. There are people out there making all kinds of dreadful childrearing choices who probably think they're doing the best for their babies, cio and spanking etc, but how can we validate that this is a logical thing to believe? I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster has more credibility than the belief that circumcision is somehow beneficial to an infant. :
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#80 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 12:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trmpetplaya
I'm in the US and it's not common here (NW)... my parents really want us to move to Georgia or S. Carolina, but the circ acceptance is so high there... that would be the hardest part of moving there for me Then I'd have to deal with losing friends over it more than I have had to so far.

love and peace.
Well if you move to South Carolina you'll know at least one family that is extremely anti-circ, mine!!!!!!!

On topic it would be hard to ever think of my friend in the same way again, especially since she/he is my friend they would have all the info about circ (I'd make sure of that). I don't know if I'd quit talking to them all together but we would definitely drift a part. I know I could no longer be close with them.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#81 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 06:10 PM
 
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Doesn't that say something about their thought processes, though? I'm not trying to insult your friends; I'm trying to understand how someone can believe such a thing in the face of overwhelming evidence that it isn't so. There are people out there making all kinds of dreadful childrearing choices who probably think they're doing the best for their babies, cio and spanking etc, but how can we validate that this is a logical thing to believe? I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster has more credibility than the belief that circumcision is somehow beneficial to an infant. :
What overwhelming evidence??? It is only overwhelming if you search through all the mud like the Gilgal society and poorly informed doctors spouting out myths/misinformation.

I understand the frustration, but my point (and others) about my friends is that the 'good' parents that choose circ don't understand the overwhelming evidence against circumcising. My best friend believed some of the hype-- and her doctors are responsible for that. She was concerned about the pain and potential mistakes, as I was. We went through different thought processes that were shaped by many things. I'm very thankful that there were at least 3 people on a mainstream board that shared postitive experiences about leaving sons intact. Not everyone hears even one positive example.

So her though process was that circumcising is done to prevent painful infections, her doctors are telling her that this is true and recommending that she should circumcise. Now, then she further needed to rationalize her concern over the pain. Her doctor assures her that HE is so concerned about this that he does X Y and Z, not all doctors do this. He also has SO much experience and came recommended by so and so. So then maybe she justifies that other people (that choose to leave sons intact) don't have this wonderful doctor that does all this stuff to ensure ds's safety.

This is different than 'I circed my son because I think it is more appealing, and an intact penis is gross'. If my friend said that I would not even phase her out, she would be out, but I don't know anyone (IRL) that is like that, thank goodness.


I'm sorry I always rant on this, but it seems to me to be a very critical piece of knowledge in order to be able to approach people effectively. People are not goign to listen to me if I assume they are 'bad' parents because they consider circumcision a valid option. I have to find out how I can present information that reaches them. Or make them suspicious. Or relieve their fears. Or supply alternatives (such as a Bris Shalom if someone is Jewish). Or whatever.

I usually approach each person very individually online. I guess maybe I'd be bolder now that I know more than I did with my friend. One of the lessons I learned from her is that sometimes people do things like call pediatric urologist-- and these doctors see people that have 'problems' and are biased in that way.

Jessica

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#82 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 08:57 PM
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What overwhelming evidence???
Well, for me, it's the overwhelming evidence I put into their hands.

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#83 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 09:47 PM
 
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bear with my thought process, I'm tired and just finished cleaning my house!

Ok, so to all those that would end a friendship based on circumcision only. Will you also end a friendship if someone vaccinates? To me, the two are similar. Vacination alters a body, maybe not apparent on the outside, but it screws with your immune system and changes the way a body resonds to disease. Also, they are doing it w/o the child's permission. Vaxxing has the potential for some very serious complications, even death, just like circing.

If you say no, how do you justify it? i am asking this in all sincerity and not at all rudely. I am very curious as to what people think of this.

eta: MDC is my "reward" for working so hard..I need to get a life
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#84 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 10:36 PM
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*cough* Keep it on topic please.....

*looks for PuppyFluffer*

Vax does not = Circ.

Not in my eyes anyway....I vaxed my DD to protect her from whatever my DH brings home from his job...in the military.
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#85 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 10:41 PM
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The difference in my eyes is that vaccines have some proven medical benefits as well as risks - and for some children the benefits greatly outweigh the risk.

Circumcision has no proven medical benefits, and lots of risk - and for no children do the non-existant benefits outweigh the risk.

Long distance Mom to boarding school superstars E (9) and Layne (6).
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#86 of 307 Old 05-05-2006, 11:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jessjgh1
What overwhelming evidence??? It is only overwhelming if you search through all the mud like the Gilgal society and poorly informed doctors spouting out myths/misinformation.

I understand the frustration, but my point (and others) about my friends is that the 'good' parents that choose circ don't understand the overwhelming evidence against circumcising. My best friend believed some of the hype-- and her doctors are responsible for that. She was concerned about the pain and potential mistakes, as I was. We went through different thought processes that were shaped by many things. I'm very thankful that there were at least 3 people on a mainstream board that shared postitive experiences about leaving sons intact. Not everyone hears even one positive example.

So her though process was that circumcising is done to prevent painful infections, her doctors are telling her that this is true and recommending that she should circumcise. Now, then she further needed to rationalize her concern over the pain. Her doctor assures her that HE is so concerned about this that he does X Y and Z, not all doctors do this. He also has SO much experience and came recommended by so and so. So then maybe she justifies that other people (that choose to leave sons intact) don't have this wonderful doctor that does all this stuff to ensure ds's safety.

This is different than 'I circed my son because I think it is more appealing, and an intact penis is gross'. If my friend said that I would not even phase her out, she would be out, but I don't know anyone (IRL) that is like that, thank goodness.


I'm sorry I always rant on this, but it seems to me to be a very critical piece of knowledge in order to be able to approach people effectively. People are not goign to listen to me if I assume they are 'bad' parents because they consider circumcision a valid option. I have to find out how I can present information that reaches them. Or make them suspicious. Or relieve their fears. Or supply alternatives (such as a Bris Shalom if someone is Jewish). Or whatever.

I usually approach each person very individually online. I guess maybe I'd be bolder now that I know more than I did with my friend. One of the lessons I learned from her is that sometimes people do things like call pediatric urologist-- and these doctors see people that have 'problems' and are biased in that way.

Jessica
exactly!!! believe me, coming from a country where RIC is unheard of, I could be the least tolerant person regarding circumcision, but I have had so many talks with my american friends, and circumcision is something that has been normalized in their minds their whole lives. They are surrounded by ignorant doctors, heck even the AAP used to recommend it up until a few years ago!! so no, I don't think my friends are bad parents. I do believe they are misinformed, and unfortunately they might harm their babies because of this ignorance, which is why I make it a point to at the very least hand them information, ofcourse I believe that I can't push my anti-circ views down people's throats because I would not like anyone to come and push their beliefs down MY throat. It's like developing countries and formula.. after natural disasters millions of mothers are given free samples of formula, no breastfeeding support and info.. how are they supposed to know, with no education, that their choice to feed their baby that formula could harm their baby? I'm sure they love their kids to death also
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#87 of 307 Old 05-06-2006, 12:00 AM
 
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Netty, I think you have a point. Vaccinating isn't as apparently black and white as RIC is though. Also most if not all medical organizations recommend vaxes and that isn't true for RIC.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#88 of 307 Old 05-06-2006, 12:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora114
*cough* Keep it on topic please.....

*looks for PuppyFluffer*

Vax does not = Circ.
Do ya need a cough drop? I think I am keeping it on topic, maybe just exploring the topic further. I was asking others for their opinions and if they thought the two were at all similar, not saying unequivocally that the two are the same.

Why ya gotta try to sic the mod on me? (just kidding)
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#89 of 307 Old 05-06-2006, 12:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sheacoby
Netty, I think you have a point. Vaccinating isn't as apparently black and white as RIC is though. Also most if not all medical organizations recommend vaxes and that isn't true for RIC.
Ahh, I hadn't mentally explored the medical reccomendations ascpect. Thanks for bringing that up.
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#90 of 307 Old 05-06-2006, 01:11 AM
 
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You all are making me laugh!

I do think the comparison between vax and RIC is a useful discussion and I think Sheacoby hits in on the head when she states that the medical recommendation aspects make it very different. Vax's do have some proven medical benefit. Now, whether you believe that that is a true "benefit" for your child is a different matter and one for the Vaccination board!

I think once your mind has been opened to the damage of circ in it's physical mental and ethical aspects, it is nearly impossible to see how someone can do it to their baby. That is really the huge divide we are talking about....and whether it is possible or useful or of interest to maintain a relationship with someone you have such a huge divide with. There will be people who will find enough other aspects where they can and do connect that they can bridge this gap. For others, the gap is one which they don't care to bridge and therefore they let the friendship go. I can see how a person can handle the situation in either way.

I have made it a point to not make trusting friendships with people when I am not on the same parenting page. I learn first whether they spank their kids, whether they do CIO etc...and based on that, I share my parenting philosophies. I am fortunate that my few close friends either have no kids or they had their kids before I became educated on the issue of circ. I'm also the youngest child in my family and the last to be having babies so everyone I am close with has already made the decision with what ever info they had at the time.

"To err is human, to forgive, canine." - Unknown
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