If a friend of your chooses to circ...do you stay friends with them? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 05:26 PM
 
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I would not have a problem staying friends with someone who chose to circ for religious reasons.

But ppl who choose RIC for their children? Not so much. I tend to be pretty judgmental, and assume people are stupid if they circ their boys.

I can sympathize with not knowing the options, but nobody I know would have to make the choice without hearing the pro-intact side of the argument.
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#122 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 05:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Pandora114
That's because they sell the foreskins to cosmetic and biotech companies and make back their "loss"
Still seems like they could charge much more. Aren't they all about making tons?

Anyway - I agree - It's not about charging for it. It's that it should be illegal. It shouldn't be an available choice. I wonder if I could pay to have my newborn's earlobe cut off just because?
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#123 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 05:29 PM
 
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I think it's just evidence of the lack of value our society assigns to the foreskin. It's viewed and treated as nothing more than a skin tag that gets sliced away.
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#124 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 05:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dragonfly
I think it's just evidence of the lack of value our society assigns to the foreskin. It's viewed and treated as nothing more than a skin tag that gets sliced away.
Oh - so true! And so sad!
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#125 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragonfly
I think it's just evidence of the lack of value our society assigns to the foreskin. It's viewed and treated as nothing more than a skin tag that gets sliced away.
Still........$200 times 5 or 6 an hour..........adds up to pretty big bucks for the doc. The nurses get the boys ready in "assembly line" style, unfortunately.

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#126 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 05:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by A&A
Still........$200 times 5 or 6 an hour..........adds up to pretty big bucks for the doc. The nurses get the boys ready in "assembly line" style, unfortunately.
Yeah, and what does a birth cost out of pocket - in the neighborhood of $3000? So a doc can make 10% of the fee for the entire pregnancy and delivery in about 15 minutes.

What I think needs to happen is some MAJOR lawsuits for failure to get informed consent that would drive up the cost of liability insurance. If ob/gyns had to pay through the nose for liability insurance for circs, you can bet they'd stop doing them right quick.

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#127 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 05:51 PM
 
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Still........$200 times 5 or 6 an hour..........adds up to pretty big bucks for the doc. The nurses get the boys ready in "assembly line" style, unfortunately.
Wowsers - are they that fast? Do they do all the boys in one room? That's freaky!
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#128 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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i do think that they have all the boys in one room. just line them up and do each one and the nurses prep and clean up.
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#129 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 06:05 PM
 
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Deciding to circ doen't mean that the parents are bad parents. I would wait and see if they are mean, completely irresponsible people. who have no judgement whatsoever then I would consider ending a friendship. Not on the sole basis of circumsision. That's harsh IMHO
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#130 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 06:12 PM
 
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I think the flip side of this discussion is that it's our responsibility to inform our friends and acquaintances. If we hold back because of shyness or embarrassment at bringing the subject up - well, then, we're partly culpable for not doing something to pierce the veil of secrecy and ignorance that surrounds circumcision.

Maybe this goes without saying to this crowd. It wouldn't be right to cut someone out of my life if I hadn't given her everything necessary to make the right decision. (And yes, for me, there is only one right decision - not to circumcise. That's the only decision that's right for the baby, whose body it is.)

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#131 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 06:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Christi
Deciding to circ doen't mean that the parents are bad parents. I would wait and see if they are mean, completely irresponsible people. who have no judgement whatsoever then I would consider ending a friendship. Not on the sole basis of circumsision. That's harsh IMHO
I guess I'm harsh. I think deciding to circumcise, after being informed of the facts, is both mean and completely irresponsible.

I also couldn't be good friends with someone who hit their children.

Both show lack of respect for and sub-human treatment of children. And, again, I think being able to do that is evidence of a huge divide between my life choices and theirs. Some divides are traversable. For example, I can be friends with smokers even though I think smoking is dangerous and irresponsible (though I don't want them smoking around me). I can be friends with people who have different politics. People who think it's okay to treat their children as chattel, I just can't.
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#132 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 08:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheBrink
Wowsers - are they that fast? Do they do all the boys in one room? That's freaky!
Yeah, they line them up on as many circumstrainst as they have. The doctor usually gets them all clamped (if they're using the gomco), then goes back to the first baby and finishes up one by one and the nurses do the unstrapping, cleaning, and bandaging.

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#133 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 08:13 PM
 
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You would really not want to be friends with someone just because you believe in 2 different things?? Who in the world says that your opinion is right? and who says hers is? That's absurd to not want to be friends with someone over that... this has been a procedure for a very long time and lots and lots of people do it. That doesn't mean you can't be friends with them. Maybe you think its wrong, but some people things it's right and you can't judge someone just because of their beliefs. My gosh some people are so petty. I wouldn't want you to be my friend anyways
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#134 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 08:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lula's Mom
He had his son circumcised- in the hospital- for "religious reasons". He's Catholic. If I see anyone who remotely resembles him, or hear his name, I feel revolted.
This may have been covered already, but I had to comment on this. Being Catholic is NOT a reason to circ. Catholics are NOT advised to circ. I had a loooooooong discussion with our priest about this and that is sooooo not true. Sounds like not only is he unaware of why not to circ, he's also not very up on his own religion.

Off to read the rest.
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#135 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 08:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama
This may have been covered already, but I had to comment on this. Being Catholic is NOT a reason to circ. Catholics are NOT advised to circ. I had a loooooooong discussion with our priest about this and that is sooooo not true. Sounds like not only is he unaware of why not to circ, he's also not very up on his own religion.

Off to read the rest.
Yep. Catholics Against Circumcision explains how circumcision is against the moral law.

Quote:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly
intended amputations, mutilations and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against moral law" (N. 2297)

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#136 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 08:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SCC703
You would really not want to be friends with someone just because you believe in 2 different things?? Who in the world says that your opinion is right? and who says hers is? That's absurd to not want to be friends with someone over that... this has been a procedure for a very long time and lots and lots of people do it. That doesn't mean you can't be friends with them. Maybe you think its wrong, but some people things it's right and you can't judge someone just because of their beliefs. My gosh some people are so petty. I wouldn't want you to be my friend anyways
Tell you what, read through this website: www.oknocirc.blogspot.com and then if you're still not convinced watch this video www.intact.ca and then see whether your opinion is changed.

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#137 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 10:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama
This may have been covered already, but I had to comment on this. Being Catholic is NOT a reason to circ. Catholics are NOT advised to circ. I had a loooooooong discussion with our priest about this and that is sooooo not true. Sounds like not only is he unaware of why not to circ, he's also not very up on his own religion.

Off to read the rest.
You're right. At first I gave him general why-intact-is-better info. I kept telling him I was here with answers to any concerns he had, if he would just let me know where his head was at. He made some vague reference to his religion, and I told him that I was delighted to inform him that he was not obligated to circ his son, that in fact he should not! I came here and gathered all manner of references to prove that to him.

Awhile later he responded that he had consulted 3 doctors, one a urologist who told them it was "better to have it done now than later". (Nevermind the fact that I had told him to be wary of doctors, and sent him the Doctors Opposing Circumcision link.) He also said he had talked to his priest. He told me "My religion does prefer that the males be circumcised." WTF? A case of the PRIEST not being up on his own religion? I don't know, but I knew at that point it was a lost cause.

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#138 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 10:08 PM
 
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He could have been lying about the priest (and the doctors, for that matter). It sounds like he was gonna circ no matter what information you gave him. At least you tried, mama.

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#139 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 10:11 PM
 
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SCC703, I understand how someone unfamiliar with this controversy- someone who might not even know there IS a controversy- might take that view. I urge you to read, read, read on this issue, here in the forum! Many of us were similarly ignorant at one time. But now that we understand circumcision thoroughly, we are vehemently opposed to it. Just because something has been done for a long time, to millions of helpless babies, does not make it OK. It's so not OK.

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#140 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 10:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Quirky
He could have been lying about the priest (and the doctors, for that matter). It sounds like he was gonna circ no matter what information you gave him. At least you tried, mama.
: My thoughts exactly. You did the best you could. Some people just have their mind set and there's no changing it.
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#141 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 10:23 PM
 
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JMHO, I can't condone circ'ing for ANY reason.
I feel that strongly about it that, yes, it's hard for me to continue a DEEP friendship b/c it IS a core value for me.
May sound harsh as pps mentioned but not for me.
We all have our limits on certain issues.

an FYI - tread lightly on the religious issues here.

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#142 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 10:28 PM
 
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As for the op's question: Yes, I have stopped a friendship with someone who was given all of the info. and went ahead and circ'd her second son anyway, because she was nervous about pissing of the daddy. To top it off, her first son was a preemie (born at 31 weeks or so), was hooked up to every machine imaginable to keep him alive, and she said she left the decision to her husband because he has a penis (his son's penis is not his ). Well, when she was talking to one of his many nurses, she asked when circ could be done. The nurse tore her a new one and asked why she would want to do something like that after all her son has been through. This woman (n.l.a.f) was mad that the nurse talked to her that way and actually had the cajones to complain that the nurse was 'not nice to her':

So fast forward, I meet this person and she tells me this story and then, after giving her as much info. as I possibly could she tells me she doesn't want her boys to be different, and besides, she doesn't have a penis and thinks her dh should decide. Well, guess what? They did it to another boy because her freaking husband is too insecure to let this little baby be, doesn't want him to be different, doesn't want him to be made fun of, etc. Excuse after lame excuse.

Do I miss her as a friend? Hell no. My mamma bear instinct was in full force and there was no way, on God's green earth, that my dh & I would ever consent to circ. (unless absolutely medically necessary).I cannot understand wtf happened to her instincts and when I saw that little boy for the first time (hers), I felt nothing but sad that he was a victim to his father's vanities and insecurities and that she did NOTHING, after being informed about circ., to protect her child because she didn't want to upset her dh's frail ego.
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#143 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 11:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Quirky
He could have been lying about the priest (and the doctors, for that matter). It sounds like he was gonna circ no matter what information you gave him. At least you tried, mama.
Thanks, y'all. I appreciate it. I was devastated. Yeah, he could have been lying. I just thought there was hope because when I first brought it up, he said they hadn't decided and were still researching, but would take it very seriously. He works for some kind of urological company, I am pretty sure they do research using foreskins. So that right there tells you something.

polka, I don't think it's a problem to talk about religion when people mistakenly think it is called for but isn't, is it? It's not condemning anyone's religious practices when they're wrong about the religion requiring it, I think. Maybe I'm wrong.

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#144 of 303 Old 05-06-2006, 11:54 PM
 
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I agree that I wouldn't stop being friends with a Jewish (or any other religion...) mama who felt that she had to circ for religious reasons. There's so much pressure there...

And I can understand that if I had a friend who was told by everyone that it was medically necessary and really couldn't figure out which info was real and whatnot then I could stay friends. BUT it's the "but it's prettier/I think intact penises are weird-looking" argument that gets me. My former friend admitted that she DOESN'T CARE that it's not medically necessary or even recommended. She wants to do it so she can look at her son's pretty penis and so he "will get laid a lot in high school". I informed her that my dh got "laid a lot in high school" by me and he's intact, but she informed me that her son will be the social outcast of the century if he's not mutilated.

She had all the info. Cosmetic surgery for cosmetic surgery's sake on a non-consenting child/infant is wrong. Why doesn't she give him a nose job as well to make sure his nose is "pretty" enough for him to get laid? She might just consider doing that too Once someone has said that they don't care about the numerous terrible aspects of circ because it's just so much "prettier", I no longer have ANY respect for that person.

If someone was making other decisions that were harmful to her child and made them in that way I would stop respecting them and thus have to stop spending as much time with them...

This is what she said (though not in so many words):
*I know there are bad side effects and that it's unnecessary, but I just LOVE to look at circ'd penises so I'll mutilate my son.

other examples of attitudes toward childrearing that would lose my respect (equal to my "friend's" attitude to circ in my opinion):
*I know that it is bad for my child, but I just LOVE to hear babies scream so I'll let my son CIO all night long!

*I know there are toxic substances in vaxes and that they don't do any good, but those track marks are SO adorable!

*Spanking is a human rights violation, but I think it's fun and much easier than actually trying to teach my child right from wrong (or safe from dangerous) without violence.

It's the admitting that they know it's not good for the child except cosmetically that really gets me. Admitting that it's only because THE PARENTS think it's nicer looking and that because "he won't remember it" that it'll all be just hunky dorey burns me up.

If a parent circ'd before knowing any better, that's cool. If a parent really believed their doctor over me, I think I could understand. BUT someone choosing something painful and irreversible that they agree is unnecessary for purely cosmetic reasons is unconscionable.

sorry for being so long-winded and I hope that all makes sense... Thank you, Quirky for stating what MGM is in such graphic terms. It truly is infant rape and it is the doctors and medical community that are most at fault.

love and peace.

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: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#145 of 303 Old 05-07-2006, 12:20 AM
 
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That's just it; it's not a "personal decision" any more than FGM is. It's a violation of a kid's basic human rights, and someone who knows the facts and chooses to do it anyway has just demonstrated a major lack of character in my book.
WELL SAID. WELL SAID.
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#146 of 303 Old 05-07-2006, 01:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen
Infant rape. Wow.

Do you get extra points for using hurtful words like that? I saw The Vagina Monologues and I don't remember her taking such pains to wrap her words in as much ugliness as possible.
Uh... "infant rape"? Yeah. Yeah, I would say it's a sexual assault on a person, in this case, an infant male. The (web) site title SexuallyMutilatedChild (.org) sums it very well. Being sexually mutilated is being raped. That's how I see it. No "sorries" from me based on my feeling and if you disagree w/ it ("sorry, but that how's I see it...").
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#147 of 303 Old 05-07-2006, 01:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen
One word: Intent.

Why do you think we parents who chose to circumsize did so? Because we just got our rocks off hurting our kids?

Or could it be because every medical person we talked to, every childcare person we talked to, every parent we talked to advised us that this temporarily painful act could well prevent more painful conditions, including cancer, in the future. If I'm told that circumsizing him could reduce his chances of getting cancer as an adult and I choose not to do it because of my beliefs, isn't that abusive?

I should apologize now for even entering this conversation. I was skimming through New Posts and saw what seemed to be an interesting thread. I feel like I've opened a door and stumbled into a party where I don't belong, like maybe a fund raiser for george bush. Check please!
Yeah, but a sick person who goes around molesting children could sincerely think he/she is "loving" the kid... that doesn't make them any less of a child molester or the act heinous act they're doing right.
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#148 of 303 Old 05-07-2006, 01:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama
This may have been covered already, but I had to comment on this. Being Catholic is NOT a reason to circ. Catholics are NOT advised to circ. I had a loooooooong discussion with our priest about this and that is sooooo not true. Sounds like not only is he unaware of why not to circ, he's also not very up on his own religion.

Off to read the rest.
The CatholicsAgainstCircumcision.org will tell you it's not a valid reason (to circ) based on being Catholic. Jesus died on a cross. Is this what you want to happen to your son to "be like him"? Besides, I thought Jesus was circumcised and was sacrificed so WE don't have to do what Jesus did!
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#149 of 303 Old 05-07-2006, 03:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheBrink
Still seems like they could charge much more. Aren't they all about making tons?

Anyway - I agree - It's not about charging for it. It's that it should be illegal. It shouldn't be an available choice. I wonder if I could pay to have my newborn's earlobe cut off just because?
Part of it is that that $200.00 is Canadian dollars which are different than American dollars in value. Maybe some one can give the equivalent in American dollars. The average cost of a circumcision in America is about $350.00 and I have recently seen reports of it costing as much as $700.00. When you figure the time it takes, especially if they are doing more than one, that is an outrageous charge on an hourly basis. If they are doing two or more, it could amount to more than $3,000.00 per hour! That's just obscene!


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#150 of 303 Old 05-07-2006, 05:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SCC703
You Who in the world says that your opinion is right? and who says hers is? this has been a procedure for a very long time and lots and lots of people do it.
Exactly how it is right to take a newborn baby and rip off the most sensitive part of his genitals? I'm sorry but I just don't understand how can that be right? Care to explain?

Just because it is an old practise we should accept it? Well, wellcome back foot binding in China, let's allow FGM - or what about those stupid laws here in Scandinavia forbidding physical violence towards children - heck, children have been beaten for centuries, so it must be right? And why fight against child-labour, another practise that is very old. I could go on and on.

Children are human beings. They should have human rights. What is done to little babies in circumcision would get you punished by law in western countries if you did the same to a dog. <<shudder>>
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