Would you stay Friends poll - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: Would you stay friends with someone who circ'd?
Yes - I would stay friends if someone, knowing all the facts, circ'd their son/daughter. 39 27.46%
Yes - If they, knowing all the facts circ'd their ds; not if they circ'd their dd (please explain). 18 12.68%
No - Not if they, having all the info, chose to circ for cosmetic reasons only. 30 21.13%
No - Not if they, having all the info, circ'd for either religious or cosmetic reasons. 27 19.01%
No - Not at all. It is abuse, plain and simple regardless of the intentions/ignorance of the parent. 10 7.04%
Other (please explain). 18 12.68%
Voters: 142. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-17-2006, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay. So I want to see numbers about this question. I noticed these common responses to the "Would you stay friends with someone who circ'd" thread:

1. Yes - I would never base a friendship off whether someone, knowing all the facts, circ'd their son/daughter.

2. Yes - I would never base a friendship off whether someone knowing all the facts circ'd their son, but I would not stay friends if they circ'd their daughter (please explain).

3. No - If they, having all the info, chose to circ for cosmetic reasons only, I would not be able to handle being around them.

4. No - If they, having all the info, circ'd for religious or cosmetic reasons I would not be able to handle being around them.

5. No - If anyone circ'd any child of theirs whether they had the correct info or not I would not be able to be around them because it is abuse, plain and simple regardless of the intentions/ignorance of the parent.

6. Other (please explain).

love and peace.

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: Circumcision can never be undone :
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Old 06-17-2006, 07:45 AM
 
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I chose "other."

Many people cannot accept internet research or a friend's opinion as fact and will ask a doctor for a 2nd opinion.

In the USA a doctor is likely to say circ has alot of benefits and little risk, and those who trust their doctor's end up circing their DS. In this situation I would stay friends with someone who circ'd, despite knowing the fact's from me.

I find it highly unlikely that a doc in the USA is going to say circing a girl is ok or has benefits. However if my friend was an online friend from a nation where it is done and supported by medical profesionals I can also see myyself staying friends.

The thing is, alot of my friends are already on the crunchyer side of things, and I know for a fact that their trying their best to parent their kids in the best way for their kids and their family. But I know very few who will trust the net in medical matters, most of my friends aren't as into computers as me and will run to the doctors, vax, give antibiotics for whatever. A bad call in medical matters, whether it's circ'ing or vax isn't going to end a friendship with a person. I'll try to educate for the next DS but I understand when people can't find it in themselfs to trust me and the net and I blame the doctors.

If the circ'ing were part of a patern of abuse and disregard for the baby, ie acompanied by CIO, spanking discipline, formula feeding out of convenence, I think I'd need to distance myself. That said, I have friends who have done all those things because they were misadvised by doctor's as well. If I feel that someone has the best intrest of their family at heart, I will continue being friend's and work to get them to be more AP/NFL.
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Old 06-17-2006, 08:25 AM
 
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I chose "No - Not if they, having all the info, chose to circ for cosmetic reasons only. " but now I'm not sure if I should have chosen "Other" instead.

If I knew a pregnant friend wanted to circ her son, I'd do my best give her info and tell her why circ is wrong.
I wouldn't stay friends if they refused to research circ, or if they circ'ed because "it looks better", "to look like his dad", "everyone else does it", etc.
If the circ was done for religious reasons it would depend on how religious the parents are. If they were the kind that follows certain things but ignores others as it suits them, I'd lose respect.
I'm not too sure about other reasons/situations. It would depend on a lot... how close I was to the parent in question, if we have other differences and what they are, the parent's attitude toward circ'ing, etc.
I very much doubt I'd be close to someone who circ'ed knowing better though. Because to me it boils down to this: it's the boy's body, and the parents don't have the right to alter if it isn't medically necessary.
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Old 06-17-2006, 09:41 AM
 
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Yes, but not as close a friend as I was before.

milk donation : mother to Ryan (6), AJ (5), Nate (2), Maia (1) all born at home, I have a kid-friendly food & bento blog, : :
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:11 AM
 
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I chose other.

If somene had a circ done on their son without knowing the facts, I would stay friends with them. If someone did it knowing all the facts it would definitely affect how close the relationship would be.
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:13 AM
 
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I chose 'other'. I would remain friends, but it wouldn't be the same. I wouldn't be able to be close to someone who disrespected and harmed their child like that. But I wouldn't cut them off.

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Old 06-17-2006, 11:40 AM
 
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If they were able to watch a video of a circ and I had talked with them about the lifelong sexual consequences of circ and they still put their son through that for cosmetic reasons I could not be friends with them anymore. I am less certain about the religious aspect- I haven't known anyone personally who did circ for religious reasons so I don't know exactly how I would feel in that situation. I am friends with moms and dads who circed out of ignorance or pressure from their Dr.s and I am still friends with them. I just feel like anyone who sees a circ, knows the facts, and still does that to their son is not a person I can have any respect for and I don't stay friends with people who I cannot respect.

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Old 06-17-2006, 12:08 PM
 
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Yes, and I have. I sent a friend all kinds of links, she is crunchy minded anyway, they did choose to circ. . We are still friends. Maybe she will never change her thinking on this, but- I do hope she does.

There is a mama in my playgroup who circ.ed while knowing the facts, I love this mama. I really respect her views in so many other areas and think day in and day out, she is an awesome mama.

I really do think circ. is horrible and child abuse, etc. I also hold other "controversial thoughts" on subjects which seem CRYSTAL clear to me, but- I know, it is not just knowing facts or seeing video, etc when something is so engrained in a society. I do hope that my remaining friends with people who feel differently from me on major issues like this will allow some growth in both of us.

There was a time when I was the person who did circ., I know better now, thanks to everyone here, if I did not have MDC, I would hope that I would've had a good friend who would never have given up on me.

I don't blame others for not staying friends with people who do circ., each person has their own "callings" in these things, IMO.

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Old 06-17-2006, 12:16 PM
 
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I voted other as well. I guess it would depend on their level of ignorance toward the subject. For example, my brother's kids are circ'd for cosmetic reasons and just because it is "the norm" in his mind. His wife is also very vocal about thinking uncirc'd penises are unattractive. They are also ignorant in a lot of other areas as well--only using conventional medicine (kids are always going to the doc and on antibiotics), eating all processed foods (I swear they took their first two kids to McDonalds at least once a day for the first 4 years of their lives), formula feeding only, c-secs, the works. I still love them, but I have accepted that they have not "seen the light" yet, but I am always there to try and educate them even if they do think it is easier and better to be status quo.
Then I have a SIL who is enlightened when it meets her needs (pres of a vegan organization but her fav food is hamburgers). She is crunchy when it does not inconvenience her or when crunchy people are around. Her DH was raised Jewish, but then became a Buddhist monk--he is no longer a monk but still proclaims and practices Buddhism. When they told me they were going to circ their son (for cleanliness because SIL didn't think she could teach her child to be clean), I was livid--they said it wasn't going to be as bad as at the hospital because they were going to have a Bris. Even now, I shake my head and sigh every time I think about this conversation because SIL would be the first one picketing a hospital that was performing female circ. Anyway, DH and I told them that we would no longer be able to have anything to do with them if they mutilated their child and then we bombarded them with info re circ. Thank goodness they ended up not doing it.

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Old 06-17-2006, 12:50 PM
 
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I'm having a hard time with this right now. I have friends who have circed their sons and we're still friends. One of my good friends just had her first baby and when I went to the hospital yesterday to see them, they were talking about how the baby was circed that morning. I had sent her links to nocirc and here, and I don't know if she even read them or not. I had a feeling she would do it, but I didn't ask her about it a lot before because I just didn't want to know. Now that I know it was done it is really bothering me. With my other friends it didn't bother me as much, but for some reason the fact that this baby was circed less than 24 hrs. old is really upseting me. I want to stay friends with her, but I don't know if I can.
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Old 06-17-2006, 01:19 PM
 
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I have lost a friend over this, by my own choice. I gave her the information and I spent time discussing all the myths that she brought up. She knew the reasons that it was painful, life altering, etc. Her only response was that it would "look funny." I gave her more info to read and watched her read it.

She still circ'ed her son. I didn't think anyone could do it when they knew the facts. I changed his diaper and saw that circ wound, I wanted to scream. I cried when I left.

There are other areas where she's proven to be nothing but selfish, which I won't go into. But knowing that she had all the facts and just didn't care about the pain he'd suffer (she made it pretty clear), I can't be friends with someone who cares so little for their own newborn.
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Old 06-17-2006, 01:54 PM
 
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Nope, can't do it. I know myself and it would just nag at me, and I would be angry, have no respect for them, and that's no way to maintain a friendship.
And while this may be an unpopular opinion, I feel that ignorance is no excuse.
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Old 06-17-2006, 02:10 PM
 
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I voted other also. It would really depend on the person, the circumstance, their understanding, & how much I was otherwise simpatico with them. If we can discuss things respectfully with each other it's never too late (well, for us ). If we can't, then we were never much friends, just acquaintances.
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Old 06-17-2006, 05:09 PM
 
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I chose that if they had all the info and circed anyway then I would not be friends with them, regardless of the reason (unless of course there was a real medical reason). I don't buy the religion argument, I think it is still abuse. I however do not blame parents who are totally ignorant. We have all been ignorant at one time or the other. I know I was. I was ignorant about circ and about vaxes. Now i know better so I do better. I feel that genital integrity is a human rights issue, but as long as hospitals and dr's are still performing the procedure without adequately explaining to the parents then I don't blam the parents who are honestly confused. I think RIC should be banned altogether, just like FGM.
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Old 06-17-2006, 05:20 PM
 
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I voted other as well. I think a relationship would definitely cool off-but not end-if a friend (or relative) were to circumcise their newborn for purely cosmetic reasons despite being educated that circumcision is unnecessary.
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Old 06-17-2006, 10:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iris0110
I chose that if they had all the info and circed anyway then I would not be friends with them, regardless of the reason (unless of course there was a real medical reason). I don't buy the religion argument, I think it is still abuse. I however do not blame parents who are totally ignorant. We have all been ignorant at one time or the other. I know I was. I was ignorant about circ and about vaxes. Now i know better so I do better. I feel that genital integrity is a human rights issue, but as long as hospitals and dr's are still performing the procedure without adequately explaining to the parents then I don't blam the parents who are honestly confused. I think RIC should be banned altogether, just like FGM.
: (except for being ignorant about circ, since I've thought it was an unfair mutilation since I was 16 and it happened to my newborn cousin)
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Old 06-17-2006, 10:51 PM
 
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I have to admit that I have stayed friends with a friend that I had given the whole shpeel to, and she circ'd anyway because she wanted him to "look normal" (: ).

However, I have to also admit, I respected her and her husband a LOT less, and that loss of respect was one factor in my later ending the friendship.

My boys are intact. And this might be ignorant, and I hope I don't offend anyone: but when I changed my friend's son after he was circ'd, there was just "not much there" and the head was up inside and not even visible (was it hiding away???). It is really upsetting to me to see them right after, still in the process of healing.
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by beansavi
IHowever, I have to also admit, I respected her and her husband a LOT less, and that loss of respect was one factor in my later ending the friendship.
That was pretty much the same with me and the one couple who I knew were informed and did it anyway. There were other reasons, but looking back it was pretty much the beginning of the end.

With my sister it was a whole other matter. I actually didn't speak to her for two years. It wasn't until my niece was born with a dire heart condition that she called me and I resumed the relationship just to have a connection with my niece and nephew. I can speak to her now, but I'll never feel the same or be as close to her as we once were.

So, I don't know how to vote.
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Bm31
That was pretty much the same with me and the one couple who I knew were informed and did it anyway. There were other reasons, but looking back it was pretty much the beginning of the end.

With my sister it was a whole other matter. I actually didn't speak to her for two years. It wasn't until my niece was born with a dire heart condition that she called me and I resumed the relationship just to have a connection with my niece and nephew. I can speak to her now, but I'll never feel the same or be as close to her as we once were.

So, I don't know how to vote.
Other

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
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Old 06-18-2006, 12:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by QueenOfThePride
I chose 'other'. I would remain friends, but it wouldn't be the same. I wouldn't be able to be close to someone who disrespected and harmed their child like that. But I wouldn't cut them off.
Ditto, but I chose the first option.
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Old 06-18-2006, 12:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by trmpetplaya
Other

love and peace.
Ok...did it!

I mean....I would like to say I'd stop being friends with people who are informed and circ anyways...but life has a way of complicating things.
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Old 06-18-2006, 02:56 PM
 
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Old 06-18-2006, 03:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lara vanÆsir
I can not shut someone out for being culturally brainwashed.
This is what it comes down to for me. I really think it is just so engrained in this culture, and I will work to change that, in the meantime remaining friends with parents who do circ..

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Old 06-18-2006, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Peppermint
This is what it comes down to for me. I really think it is just so engrained in this culture, and I will work to change that, in the meantime remaining friends with parents who do circ..
That makes sense to me (if you can handle it! I can't I might be in a position to help more people if I could...).

Thank you for keeping this thread so nice and polite thus far I am enjoying hearing all the different opinions and having tangible poll numbers to look at is really nice! The poll takers are also not public, I forgot to mention that. So if you don't want to explain then nobody will know how you voted (I think... this IS my first poll).

love and peace.

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Old 06-18-2006, 05:26 PM
 
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Old 06-18-2006, 05:51 PM
 
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I chose other too. Somethimes knowing all the facts and doing the right thing isn't always the easy thing. Sometimes a Dr. will bully parents into doing this sometimes a father will bully the mom into this. Lots of times the parent won't fully understand what a harsh decission this is until it is too late. And as many have been told when we know better we do better. Sometimes people will know all the facts and for whatever reason chose to ignore them or turn a blind eye to them. Yes I know this is not an excuse but still it happens. So yes I would stay friends but I may not be as close to them as I previously was.
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Old 06-19-2006, 06:52 AM
 
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I chose other because while i do regard both religious and cultural pressure to circumcise as a wrongful act ie knowingly doing something you think is wrong to please other people, I do acknowledge that there can be a medical reason to circumcise, for instance when infections rarely but sometimes have caused the child's penis and foreskin to fuse together thus creating difficulty in a male child being able to urinate with a steady low of urine, ie when the pain and infections a child is subjected to, and his needs outweigh mum and dad's need to prove something to thier friends. ( The fusion was over the uretha opening causing frequent catherterisations etc and in this particular example was operated on at 7 years of age after frequent hospitalisations.) ( I also do not know if this is a problem particular to some families, ie too much growth hormones perhaps?).

I also have a neice who had similar problem unrinating as her vagina fused together. While there is a huge difference it is medically much the same problem and easily and painlessly treated in a proper hospital with anesthetic.

Sometimes it is medically neccessary, its not done lightly, it is the only real option.

Believe me, if there was another choice available, but sometimes there simply isnt.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:47 PM
 
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(haven't been on here in a long time)

Here's a view from 'the other side' - as one who's been dumped.

A friend gave us all the info - and man, she really pushed me when she saw my birth plan.

I decided I couldn't make the decision, so I left it to my husband. (Figured he'd be dealing more with 'those things' later in our child's life anyway.)



So, after ds was born and 'the deed was done' my friend threw me a baby shower (we knew about this).

She quit returning calls - to the point of screening calls, I beleive - shortly after that. I don't know how to contact her now - she moved and the e-mail addy I had for her no longer works.

Oh how I wish that she had talked to me about her feelings after all of this. Instead she kept her mouth shut - and I found out later (through an internet board).

My honest explanation for what happened is that despite the information, I felt that my husband's decision was more important than what had been presented. I know - it was such a chicken $hit thing for me to do - but the fact is, it's done and I can't ever get that part of my son back.

Will this happen if we have another son? I'm not sure. How far would I be willing to go to stand up to my husband? How would I explain to my older ds that he looks different from his brother because mommy couldn't stand up to daddy?

(I've been thinking about this topic a lot while visiting here from time to time and decided it was time to bring it 'out in the open' - even at the risk of being a pariah - which I know I am.)
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minky
I chose "other."

Many people cannot accept internet research or a friend's opinion as fact and will ask a doctor for a 2nd opinion.

In the USA a doctor is likely to say circ has alot of benefits and little risk, and those who trust their doctor's end up circing their DS. In this situation I would stay friends with someone who circ'd, despite knowing the fact's from me.

I find it highly unlikely that a doc in the USA is going to say circing a girl is ok or has benefits. However if my friend was an online friend from a nation where it is done and supported by medical profesionals I can also see myyself staying friends.

The thing is, alot of my friends are already on the crunchyer side of things, and I know for a fact that their trying their best to parent their kids in the best way for their kids and their family. But I know very few who will trust the net in medical matters, most of my friends aren't as into computers as me and will run to the doctors, vax, give antibiotics for whatever. A bad call in medical matters, whether it's circ'ing or vax isn't going to end a friendship with a person. I'll try to educate for the next DS but I understand when people can't find it in themselfs to trust me and the net and I blame the doctors.

If the circ'ing were part of a patern of abuse and disregard for the baby, ie acompanied by CIO, spanking discipline, formula feeding out of convenence, I think I'd need to distance myself. That said, I have friends who have done all those things because they were misadvised by doctor's as well. If I feel that someone has the best intrest of their family at heart, I will continue being friend's and work to get them to be more AP/NFL.
Minky,

to what you said on this issue.
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Old 06-24-2006, 02:13 AM
 
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