opinions...pain of "loose" circumcision in adults - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 20 Old 06-22-2006, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
caedmyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is pretty much an opinion question, but maybe some of the guys here can answer (or the ladies can ask their husbands)...I'm working on convincing my DH not to circumcise (should we ever have a boy). Basically it's going to come down to how closely circumcision today resembles circumcision in the Bible. I already posted a thread on that topic, and as far as I can tell, circumcision today takes off more than in the Bible, but no one can be sure exactly how much more.

Now the question: there's a reference in the Bible to a whole city of men being circumcised as part of a bargain. The Bible says that on the third day when they were in pain their enemies came in and killed them (paraphrasing here). If Biblical circumcision only removed the tip of the foreskin, could it cause that much pain several days later, or would a fair amount of the foreskin need to have been removed?
caedmyn is offline  
#2 of 20 Old 06-22-2006, 11:07 PM
Banned
 
Shaunam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Covington, TN
Posts: 1,315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you remove any amount of foreskin, it's not going to heal in three days. If you take off just the tip of the foreskin, there's still going to be a considerable wound. Whether the men in the bible had a loose circ or a tight circ, they would be in pain after three days. There's no way to tell from that part what the circs were like back then.
Shaunam is offline  
#3 of 20 Old 06-22-2006, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
caedmyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm just trying to get an idea if taking a small amount off could cause enough pain for them to be significantly disabled three days later (that's the idea I get from the Bible passage, anyway).
caedmyn is offline  
#4 of 20 Old 06-22-2006, 11:21 PM
 
Quirky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 12,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The tip of the foreskin is the most sensitive part. http://research.cirp.org If you cut through a lot of nerves, it's going to be painful.

Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

Quirky is offline  
#5 of 20 Old 06-23-2006, 08:08 AM
 
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With Vin Diesel ;) YUMMMM
Posts: 14,785
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Think of it this way if you were to cut the tip of the covering of your clitoris how long do you think it would take you to be able to walk normally. Unless of course you went nekked with nothing rubbing it. It would be very painfull to expose that bundle of nerves. I would think the "rubbing" and moving would be about the same in pain as with the tip of the foreskin cut off. Since it would be a raw wound.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

MCatLvrMom2A&X is offline  
#6 of 20 Old 06-23-2006, 12:57 PM
 
Galatea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,149
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
If you are Christian the Bible explicitly says not to circumcise.

DS1 2004 ~ DS2 2005 ~ DD1 2008 ~ DS3 2010 ~ DD2 due Dec. 2014
On hospital bedrest for pPROM since 23 weeks
Galatea is online now  
#7 of 20 Old 06-23-2006, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
caedmyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea
If you are Christian the Bible explicitly says not to circumcise.
Actually if you read all the related passages it says it doesn't matter whether you do or not--that passage actually has to do with a certain mindset, not circumcision. But I should clarify to keep this on track--it's not a religious issue for us, it basically boils down to whether God had health reasons for requiring circumcision like he did for the dietary laws in the Old Testament. (And please don't flame or get OT on that statement--I'm not interested discussing the health benefits or lack of them related to circumcision.) I did read somewhere that there is some disease/infection that is caused by blowing sand in a desert climate and that may have been the (health) reason behind removing some of the foreskin in the Old Testament...obviously that wouldn't apply today but it would be useful to know if that is actually true or not.

What I'm trying to determine is whether circumcision today is significantly different than it was in the Bible, and my original question will hopefully help me in determining that. If it is significantly different today, I think I can convince DH to leave intact (along the lines of, "If God didn't want baby boys to have a foreskin, why'd he give it to them?").
caedmyn is offline  
#8 of 20 Old 06-23-2006, 02:29 PM
 
Yoshua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Where I am
Posts: 3,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
he didnt.

it was because a man sinned and he had to circ his son and himself and all offspring.



and christians are forbidden to circ via galations. i will send you the scriptures.


/fades out

Partner to :Jessica(??) papa to Jake(7) and : Kaiya (2)
Yoshua is offline  
#9 of 20 Old 06-23-2006, 02:32 PM
 
trmpetplaya's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,918
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshua
he didnt.

it was because a man sinned and he had to circ his son and himself and all offspring.



and christians are forbidden to circ via galations. i will send you the scriptures.


/fades out
: thanks for sending her the passages! I really should have them saved or something because they are so explicitly against circ...

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
trmpetplaya is offline  
#10 of 20 Old 06-24-2006, 09:30 AM
 
Quirky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 12,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by caedmyn
Actually if you read all the related passages it says it doesn't matter whether you do or not--that passage actually has to do with a certain mindset, not circumcision. But I should clarify to keep this on track--it's not a religious issue for us, it basically boils down to whether God had health reasons for requiring circumcision like he did for the dietary laws in the Old Testament. (And please don't flame or get OT on that statement--I'm not interested discussing the health benefits or lack of them related to circumcision.) I did read somewhere that there is some disease/infection that is caused by blowing sand in a desert climate and that may have been the (health) reason behind removing some of the foreskin in the Old Testament...obviously that wouldn't apply today but it would be useful to know if that is actually true or not.
There are no health reasons related to blowing sand in a desert climate. First, people weren't exactly walking around with their genitals exposed to sand, or sitting on a desert naked, KWIM? They did have clothes back in the day. Second, the foreskin would actually protect the sensitive glans (head of the penis) from sand and other irritants, as well as urine, keeping it moist and protected like the internal organ it's supposed to be. If you cut off the foreskin, you expose the glans to unnatural irritation and drying, as well as chafing from clothing, and it keratinizes (dries out and becomes less sensitive) in self-defense.

If you believe God designed the human body perfectly, then where's the issue? I can see an argument about food laws, obviously there's free will involved in what to eat, but why would God design a penis that needed surgery to stay healthy? Especially back in the day, when there was no understanding of germs and the need for sterility during surgery - and an open wound would run the risk of a life-threatening infection.

Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

Quirky is offline  
#11 of 20 Old 06-24-2006, 10:32 AM
 
Stardust27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Back to the original question of the pain connected with adult (partial) circumcision.

Have a look at this report on NORM-UK's site. It's about forcible circumcisions of men and women in Indonesia by Muslim fanatics in 2001.

A woman telling her story admits:

"I know the men suffered more than us women. The circumcision hurt them more than it did to us because their scars could not heal fast. Several of the men I knew got serious infections after suffering from severe bleeding."

(It was Sunnah circumcision for the women, BTW, not infibulation.)


Imagine the circumferential wound of a partial circumcision, on the remains of the foreskin, which just can't be kept still. It'll be moved around when the penis moves, stretched with erections and during urination. It is probably torn open half a dozen times per day! And no chance to simply press down on it to stop the bleeding.

And of course, the wound is exactly the same size whether the whole or only part of the foreskin has been removed.

So, yes, I think this story from the Bible is believable. Three days after the operations, many of them would have infected penises, be weakened by repeated blood loss, lack of sleep etc.

Stardust
Stardust27 is offline  
#12 of 20 Old 06-24-2006, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
caedmyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky
If you believe God designed the human body perfectly, then where's the issue? I can see an argument about food laws, obviously there's free will involved in what to eat, but why would God design a penis that needed surgery to stay healthy? Especially back in the day, when there was no understanding of germs and the need for sterility during surgery - and an open wound would run the risk of a life-threatening infection.
It's not me that needs the convincing, it's DH. And I don't actually know what his reasons are for wanting circumcision as he won't discuss it. The only area where he's given me a little bit of an opening and indicated he might be open to convincing in is if it is done differently today than in the Bible, so that's what I'm focusing on.

Even with the dietary laws you don't necessarily have to follow them to be healthy, but there were health reasons behind them, and I'm still not convinced there may not have been something similar behind Biblical circumcision. But I'm not looking to debate the point (and I'm not planning on circumcising even if there is some sort of benefit to it) so no flames please.
caedmyn is offline  
#13 of 20 Old 06-24-2006, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
caedmyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardust27
Back to the original question of the pain connected with adult (partial) circumcision.

Have a look at this report on NORM-UK's site. It's about forcible circumcisions of men and women in Indonesia by Muslim fanatics in 2001.

A woman telling her story admits:

"I know the men suffered more than us women. The circumcision hurt them more than it did to us because their scars could not heal fast. Several of the men I knew got serious infections after suffering from severe bleeding."

(It was Sunnah circumcision for the women, BTW, not infibulation.)


Imagine the circumferential wound of a partial circumcision, on the remains of the foreskin, which just can't be kept still. It'll be moved around when the penis moves, stretched with erections and during urination. It is probably torn open half a dozen times per day! And no chance to simply press down on it to stop the bleeding.

And of course, the wound is exactly the same size whether the whole or only part of the foreskin has been removed.

So, yes, I think this story from the Bible is believable. Three days after the operations, many of them would have infected penises, be weakened by repeated blood loss, lack of sleep etc.

Stardust
Thanks for the explanation. That makes it much more clear to me and hopefully it will to DH, too. I think we were both having trouble visualizing since we only have experience with circumicised penises, and I'd forgotten than in intact men the foreskin moves all the time.
caedmyn is offline  
#14 of 20 Old 06-24-2006, 11:53 PM
 
Microsoap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,474
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Wasn't it during the ancient, early time of the Olympics that those who were circumcised for religious reasons (i.e.: Jewish males), only got the the very tip of their foreskin cut off... and since back then, Jews weren't allowed to compete in the games, they'd simply retract their remaining (probably 95+% intact) foreskin back to "look" "non-Jewish" and when they were caught, the Jewish population switched to the more radical method you see today where there's just enough skin to rest behind the rim of the glans so they could never hide their heritage?
Microsoap is offline  
#15 of 20 Old 06-25-2006, 07:44 AM
 
Stardust27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes, we recently had a thread about that, which, by some strange twist of fate , managed not to get deleted or moved in spite of skirting religious issues.

It's here: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=466494

Stardust
Stardust27 is offline  
#16 of 20 Old 06-25-2006, 11:01 AM
 
Quirky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 12,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Also keep in mind that even loose circumcisions done in hospitals these days widen the opening of the foreskin, break the adhesions between the foreskin and the glans with a blunt probe, and then slice off however much they're going to slice off. So IMO it really doesn't matter whether they take a lot or a little, the horribly painful parts are the same.

You should also know that loose circs are prone to developing painful adhesions between the remnant foreskin and the glans, where the penis is trying to heal itself. Search this board for loose circ and/or adhesions, you'll see we get a lot of moms coming here asking how to deal with the adhesions their sons are getting because of loose circs. You also get problems with stuff (poop, dirt, whatever) getting up into the loose circ and needing to be cleaned out - that's because the foreskin can no longer serve its function of protecting the glans once the preputial sphincter that holds it shut is gone.

I know you have said you're not going to circ, but I'm trying to explain the mechanisms of loose circ to you so that you'll understand that the differences between tight and loose circs exist, but you're trading one set of problems for another. There really is no right way to do a wrong thing.

Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

Quirky is offline  
#17 of 20 Old 06-25-2006, 06:28 PM
 
AmyAngel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 737
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Umm....

If God had health reasons for circ, wouldn't he have just had the babies start being born without foreskins?

My understanding (admittedly not very detailed) of biblical circ is that the shedding of blood is the important part (as a reminder of the covenant), and Jesus shed his blood so we didn't have to (forming a new covenant) - IE no circing!
AmyAngel is offline  
#18 of 20 Old 06-30-2006, 03:26 PM
 
SkyDweller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
caedmyn asks
Quote:
"If Biblical circumcision only removed the tip of the foreskin, could it cause that much pain several days later, or would a fair amount of the foreskin need to have been removed?"
Caedmyn, if I hear you correctly, you're looking at Biblical evidence regarding circumcision to help influence you and your husband's decision.

I'll be posting (hopefully tonight?) an abstract of an article on circumcision in antiquity that I read recently in a scholarly magazine. I'll probably start it as a 'new topic' since it deals with 'origins' of circ'ing and will be of interest to most on the board.

I've also had a 3-session study several months ago on the Biblical reasons behind Circ'ing that our small young adult study-group found fascinating.(we were going verse by verse through Romans and got side-tracked. If you want me to PM or email you a synopsis of that--or dialogue about that further, I'd be happy to do so.

Just so you know, I'm a pastor of a reasonably sized conservative Christian church and am myself circumcised : and recently influenced my associate and his wife to not circ their baby boy. The Bible is very clear on this--and has much more on this topic than I'd ever dreamed of.
SkyDweller is offline  
#19 of 20 Old 06-30-2006, 05:10 PM
 
phatchristy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Controlled chaos...
Posts: 9,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardust27
Back to the original question of the pain connected with adult (partial) circumcision.

Have a look at this report on NORM-UK's site. It's about forcible circumcisions of men and women in Indonesia by Muslim fanatics in 2001.
OMG, I read this and the description of what happened by a man who had a forced circumcision and I just felt sick. It made me think of what likely happened to my DH 32 years ago during his forced circumcision without pain medication. Infants are hypersensitive to pain even. How horrific. I can't believe that they hid the stories of the men's circumcisions.

Perpetually breastfeeding or pregnant ENFP mom to a lot of kids...wife to a midwestern nice guy...living in tropical paradise...pink cats and homebirths rock!

phatchristy is offline  
#20 of 20 Old 07-04-2006, 11:06 AM
 
SkyDweller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by caedmyn
...I'm working on convincing my DH not to circumcise (should we ever have a boy). Basically it's going to come down to how closely circumcision today resembles circumcision in the Bible. I already posted a thread on that topic, and as far as I can tell, circumcision today takes off more than in the Bible, but no one can be sure exactly how much more....
Hi, I just posted the abstract on Circumcision in Antiquity as a new thread.
SkyDweller is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off