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#1 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Is it possible for the mama who has three circ'd boys to ask questions about the case against circumcision? I have been talking via PM with a member of MDC about circumcision and honestly I am not sure where I stand. I have circ'd all three of my boys and one of my sons was re-circ'd at 18 months due to adhesions. I have already seen videos showing circ's, just really interested in hearing other aspects outside of the "watch the video" response.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#2 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:37 PM
 
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i vouge. i would be the member who told her not to be afraid.


be nice


/fades back out.

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#3 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:39 PM
 
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Absolutely! It is certainly appropriate for you to come her with questions about circ. (It is not appropriate to advocate for circ)
We have many members who have circ'd one or more sons and then have learned more about the procedure and decided not to circ any further sons.
The web resources sticky has a great deal of info on circ.
We also have a sticky thread for parents who have circ'd and now have regrets. There are many personal stories there that may be helpful for you to read.

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#4 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:40 PM
 
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Welcome, and of course you are free to ask questions! Just remember that this isn't a debate board, so advocating for circumcision isn't allowed. I'd love to hear more of your story, why you made the choices you did, about the complications your son who was recirced experienced, and how you're feeling about the whole issue currently.

Jen
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#5 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yoshua has answered some questions for me already. I am just trying to process information at this point. My oldest son has a run of the mill circ and my youngest two are loose circs. Honestly though they didn't appear to be circ'd when it was done. We had adhesion issues with my middle son and he was re-circ'd at 18 months (unnecssarily according to Yoshua). Not a pretty experience. My youngest also has a loose circ and had adhesions issues, but I decided rather than continually retracting (forcibly) I would leave him to his own devices. He is now five and doing alright. I still wonder if everything is going along fine with him. He retracts his own foreskin most of the way back with just the ridge line not be visible.

One of the things that I asked Yoshua about was the amount of sensitivity my younger two experience with their penis that their brother never had. They are both constantly trying to push their penis back into the foreskin. I guessed it had to do with sensitivity to the head of the penis b/c it hadn't been exposed until they were older. Even when I would retract them the foreskin would cover the head of the penis back up.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#6 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:47 PM
 
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hi! absolutely you can come and ask any questions you may have. I am interested in knowing why you are on the fence regarding circumcision? normally, people I know change their minds after watching the video, so I'm curious about your reasons as to why you're on the fence

warmly,
Carmen
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#7 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Trying to do this slowly as I seem to be a bit more emotional than expected. I hadn't really questioned it before the last several months. I left it as a whatever the parent decides issue. I honestly am on the fence if I would do it again. I am not having anymore kids so I guess it is a non-issue.


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Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture
Welcome, and of course you are free to ask questions! Just remember that this isn't a debate board, so advocating for circumcision isn't allowed. I'd love to hear more of your story, why you made the choices you did, about the complications your son who was recirced experienced, and how you're feeling about the whole issue currently.

Jen

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#8 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:50 PM
 
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Have you read the Mothering article on circ? I think it was in the March/April issue. It is what turned me around on the issue!!
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#9 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I guess I don't see it as my place to decide for other people. Personally, I don't have any reasons I can put my finger on. I just am going through the questioning process right now. I think Yoshua is going to disable his PM function if I ask him one more thing. So.....here I am.


Quote:
Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
hi! absolutely you can come and ask any questions you may have. I am interested in knowing why you are on the fence regarding circumcision? normally, people I know change their minds after watching the video, so I'm curious about your reasons as to why you're on the fence

warmly,
Carmen

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#10 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:51 PM
 
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Please, ask away!

I can tell you why DH and I chose to leave our sons (twins) intact. We didn't have Internet access, nor were we even aware that this was a controversial topic. DH and his brother are circumcised, as were my Dad and my brothers (we assumed DH's father was as well, but we found out a few years after he died that he was intact!).

Anyway, we talked about circumcision when we found out we were having boys. We both felt that it wasn't necessary. Our thoughts went along these lines:

1. That's GOT to HURT! We didn't want to cause our precious babies any unnecessary pain.

2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. We didn't see the sense in cutting normal, healthy tissue.

3. We both felt that infant circumcision was more of a cultural/social thing than medical, and neither of us felt obligated to perpetuate the custom. I remember one of us saying "It has to stop sooner or later - it might as well be with us!"

4. When we asked our doctor if there were medical reasons to circumcise our babies, he mentioned reduction in the risk of UTIs and STDs (this was 1994), but he didn't believe they were significant enough to justify surgery.

5. Baby boys are born with a foreskin - it must be there for a reason. At the time we didn't know WHY it was there, but we trusted that the foreskin had a purpose - just like every other body part we're born with.

Since then, I've learned a LOT about infant circumcision, and about foreskins. Nothing I've learned in the last 12 years has even come close to convincing me that infant circumcision is a good thing.

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#11 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No. I have mainly been shooting the breeze with Yoshua on this issue. I have read some of the posts here, but he was the one who started the dialogue based on something I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonc
Have you read the Mothering article on circ? I think it was in the March/April issue. It is what turned me around on the issue!!

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#12 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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In my family there was no discussion about not circ'ing. It just was what was done when you had a boy. My mother is dead set against leaving a boy intact b/c she has heard too many medical horror stories about infection. My step-father apparently was circ'd at eighteen b/c of problems (don't know the details). I never really questioned it until recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nd_deadhead
Please, ask away!

I can tell you why DH and I chose to leave our sons (twins) intact. We didn't have Internet access, nor were we even aware that this was a controversial topic. DH and his brother are circumcised, as were my Dad and my brothers (we assumed DH's father was as well, but we found out a few years after he died that he was intact!).

Anyway, we talked about circumcision when we found out we were having boys. We both felt that it wasn't necessary. Our thoughts went along these lines:

1. That's GOT to HURT! We didn't want to cause our precious babies any unnecessary pain.

2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. We didn't see the sense in cutting normal, healthy tissue.

3. We both felt that infant circumcision was more of a cultural/social thing than medical, and neither of us felt obligated to perpetuate the custom. I remember one of us saying "It has to stop sooner or later - it might as well be with us!"

4. When we asked our doctor if there were medical reasons to circumcise our babies, he mentioned reduction in the risk of UTIs and STDs (this was 1994), but he didn't believe they were significant enough to justify surgery.

5. Baby boys are born with a foreskin - it must be there for a reason. At the time we didn't know WHY it was there, but we trusted that the foreskin had a purpose - just like every other body part we're born with.

Since then, I've learned a LOT about infant circumcision, and about foreskins. Nothing I've learned in the last 12 years has even come close to convincing me that infant circumcision is a good thing.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#13 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 05:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd_deadhead
3. We both felt that infant circumcision was more of a cultural/social thing than medical, and neither of us felt obligated to perpetuate the custom. I remember one of us saying "It has to stop sooner or later - it might as well be with us!"
That was part of my reasoning, if someone says something "has" to be done, well then by golly I'm going to find me a reason NOT to do it!

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#14 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just curious what uses the foreskin has. Are my boys with a loose circ's seem more sensitive, so are they going have more feeling than thier brother? I have been told that the adhesions are a normal reaction of the penis trying to heal itself so there was on reason to have re-circ'd my middle son. The urologist; however, told me that I had to retract my boys to avoid the adhesions and the adhesions would create infections. Just rambling trying to organize the mess in my head.

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#15 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 06:05 PM
 
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Greetings.
One thing you will learn on this board is that the "horror stories" most peple hear are the result of ignorant U.S. doctors that will amputate this body part at the first sign of trouble. Apparetnly doctors elsewhere actually understand the complex mechanism that is the normal human foreskin.

I like the "familiarize yourself with the purpose and function of the foreskin" approach rather than the be horrified by a video approach. Human rights are also a big issue with all HGM male or female.

My mom had my first 2 brothers circumcised in 1971 and 1980, but left my twin brothers (1993) intact because her husband pointed out the simple concept of "they're born with them, there must be a reason."

Mom to three 14 y.o. rock star grrl, 5 y.o. knight in spazzy armour and baby Juniper, born still @39 weeks 4 days 2-3-10 .
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#16 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 06:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
I guess I don't see it as my place to decide for other people.
This is the reason I am anti-circing. It is not anyone's place to decide this issue for other people. When boys are circ'd as infants, other people are deciding for them.
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#17 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 06:28 PM
 
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As far as uses of the foreskin, here are two helpful links:

http://research.cirp.org (discusses the sensitivity of the "ridged band")

http://www.norm.org/lost.html

I think the three most important things to know about the foreskin's function are these:

1) The foreskin contains half the nerve endings of the penis. So circ removes half the nerve endings and destroys sensitivity.

2) The foreskin protects the glans and keeps it a moist, protected, internal structure like it's supposed to be, thereby protecting its sensitivity as well. Think if your own foreskin were cut off (the hood of your clitoris).

3) The foreskin allows for a natural gliding motion during vaginal intercourse, which evidently makes things smoother, less prone to friction, and more pleasurable for both partners. (I wouldn't know, sadly, as my dh is circed. )

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#18 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 06:49 PM
 
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That was the clincher for me... who am I to take better sex away from my future sons? :
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#19 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
Is it possible for the mama who has three circ'd boys to ask questions about the case against circumcision?

I'd say yes, if she approaches it in the spirit of trying to learn something.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#20 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 06:55 PM
 
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Houdini, I want to tell you how brave I think you are. You've started to question whether or not circumcising your sons was the right thing to do - which is something a LOT of people are afraid to do! Many parents who have circumcised boys refuse to even think about what they did, much less ask questions about it. They simply cannot bring themselves to acmit that they might have made a mistake.

I admire your courage - and your willingness to open your mind and your heart to an option (leaving baby boys alone) that was not only completely foreign to you, but something your family is dead set against.

This may be a rocky road for you - I'm so glad you found this forum. The fols here are not only very knowledgable, but kind and gentle as well.

And there is no such thing as a dumb question.

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#21 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 07:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
Just curious what uses the foreskin has. Are my boys with a loose circ's seem more sensitive, so are they going have more feeling than thier brother? I have been told that the adhesions are a normal reaction of the penis trying to heal itself so there was on reason to have re-circ'd my middle son. The urologist; however, told me that I had to retract my boys to avoid the adhesions and the adhesions would create infections. Just rambling trying to organize the mess in my head.
Hello and welcome!

Since you have lurked here and read several threads, you may have already seen the following. But I thought I'd copy and paste a couple of items I used in a thread discussing the foreskin and its uses (your first question above).

------------------------------------------------

The Paramount Benefit of a Foreskin

We all know and acknowledge the protective function of the foreskin. During a boy's early years it serves as an excellent barrier against infection. At muturity it keeps the glans soft, moist and exquisitely sensitive.

But these benefits are the precursor to the paramount part the foreskin plays during the sexual act itself. It is perhaps the one function that surpasses any other, yet is rarely presented as such when discussing RIC. I cannot do better than copy here a section from an excellent article about the foreskin by Paul Fliess...

* Coverage During Erection: As it becomes erect, the penile shaft becomes thicker and longer. The double-layered foreskin provides the skin necessary to accommodate the expanded organ and to allow the penile skin to glide freely, smoothly, and pleasurably over the shaft and glans.
* Self-Stimulating Sexual Functions: The foreskin's double-layered sheath enables the penile shaft skin to glide back and forth over the penile shaft. The foreskin can normally be slipped all the way, or almost all the way, back to the base of the penis, and also slipped forward beyond the glans. This wide range of motion is the mechanism by which the penis and the orgasmic triggers in the foreskin, frenulum, and glans are stimulated.
* Sexual Functions in Intercourse: One of the foreskin's functions is to facilitate smooth, gentle movement between the mucosal surfaces of the two partners during intercourse. The foreskin enables the penis to slip in and out of the vagina nonabrasively inside its own slick sheath of self-lubricating, moveable skin. The female is thus stimulated by moving pressure rather than by friction only, as when the male's foreskin is missing.
* The foreskin fosters intimacy between the two partners by enveloping the glans and maintaining it as an internal organ. The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix - a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty.

I can attest to every word of this - and its opposite effect following circumcision. The foreskin is part of a perfect whole. It was designed to offer the ultimate in sexual pleasure.

And this beautifully written, personal testament from an American woman who speaks from a purely female perspective...

"Now I look at the cut penis and see it as something disfigured, injured: I see what I thought was normal before for what it really is. I see the cracked and pitted skin of the glans, where my partner's is smooth and silken to the touch. I see the strange rings of discolouration from scarring and unnatural exposure to the elements, where my partner's is gracefully coloured, culminating in a glans that looks flush and rosy like a baby's soft cheek.

I love being sexual with an intact penis. I love the different options it affords in the way of play... it's like an entire new world to explore and enjoy to our heart's content. I love the way it moves in my mouth during oral sex, the way I can pull it up over the glans and back down with my lips.

Cut penises do not afford the same variety of sensations, teasing tricks, or pleasurable movement.

I love the fluid feel of the foreskin gliding during intercourse, the way it eases penetration and makes lube a totally unnecessary substance.

I love the way his glans is softer and more gentle. At first, I thought he just wasn't getting fully erect and felt insecure... and then I read more and learned that the protected, sheathed glans is really just supposed to be softer and less rigid than the scarred and unnaturally roughened cut penis.

And then I realized how much better it felt: in my cut partners, the glans felt too hard, like it was ramming into my vagina. The intact glans feels like it gracefully melds with my internal shape, complementing it instead of assaulting it.

More than anything, I love the difference in responses between him and my other, cut partners. All I have to do is gently touch my tongue to his frenulum, and that evokes a huge shiver of pleasure, or lightly hook my finger under the foreskin to produce a powerful moan.

To me, sexual intimacy with this intact man has been a more sensitive, intense, intricate experience than with any of my uncut partners. They were all very skilled in bed... but the difference in sensation that they required is very noticeable. They needed more aggressive oral or manual stimulation to near or reach orgasm. I felt like a jackhammer.

With this partner, the slowest, most gentle strokes can produce incredible pleasure, since the natural nerve endings of the foreskin provide its own intense stimulation. I find it to be a beautiful experience, just watching and admiring how the foreskin acts for his pleasure.

And I realized more than anything that that piece of skin is his birthright. The pleasure that he receives from his foreskin belongs to him as much as his sense of taste and touch... and nobody, no doctor or parent in the world has the right to take that from him, or from any other male, unnecessarily."


I think it's very likely that your two boys with loose circs are feeling more sensitivity than their brother, which is why they try so hard to pull the skin down over their glans'. It also occurs to me that perhaps this action is instinctive. Unwittingly they may be physically expressing nature's automatic defence against the trauma of losing their foreskins. (With no protection, their glans' will inexorably loose sensitivity over the years as nature endevours to protect it with a layer of hardening tissue. The glans is supposed to be an internal organ, exposed only in the act of sex.)

I would strongly suggest you do not retract them and tear the adhesions anymore. Let nature take its course... their penises have a lot of growing to do.

Please stick with us and ask as many questions as you like. You will always get honest and friendly replies.

Christopher

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#22 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 07:56 PM
 
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[QUOTE=nd_deadhead]I admire your courage - and your willingness to open your mind and your heart to an option (leaving baby boys alone) that was not only completely foreign to you, but something your family is dead set against.QUOTE]



YES!

Christopher

Education is the discovery of our own ignorance. Will Durant

 

"You give a little love and it all comes back to you....

You know you gonna be remembered for the things you say and do."

Bugsy Malone

 

 

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#23 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 09:17 PM
 
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Is it just me, or has anyone else ever read this line from Fleiss

Quote:
The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix - a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty.
and gone HUH? The cervix doesn't really have any pleasure nerve endings as far as I'm aware (yes, you may feel it a LOT during birth but other than that it's not all that sensitive, KWIM?). In fact, it's rather annoying and squicky to me if my cervix gets contact during sex.

Stay away from my internal organ!

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#24 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am not even sure what questions I have. I have seen the information and I know the reasons for not circ'ing. It even seems I am falling of the fence and becoming an advocate, but I still am having trouble getting behind the idea that circ=abuse. I think that some people who do know the facts behind why a child should remain intact, but still feel for whatever reason that they should circ. It isn't misinformation at this point, just the parental decision to circ or not. Why do I get a say in this parent's decision for their child? I also understand that the decision should be left to the child b/c it is a permanent change. The same could be said for my decision to put my son through surgery to further fix his nose and lip shape (he was born with cleft lip). I know the analogy isn't the same, but this is where my thoughts are going. I am just trying to be honest in my hesitation.

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#25 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 09:55 PM
 
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I wouldn't consider it an acceptable parental decision to decide to have a daughter's labia excised at birth, and feel similarly toward a male child's foreskin.

A cleft lip is an anomaly; something that will negatively affect a child's ability to nurse, etc. And not every child is born with a cleft lip.

Foreskin isn't a birth defect, and that's the bottom line.
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#26 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
I wouldn't consider it an acceptable parental decision to decide to have a daughter's labia excised at birth, and feel similarly toward a male child's foreskin.

A cleft lip is an anomaly; something that will negatively affect a child's ability to nurse, etc. And not every child is born with a cleft lip.

Foreskin isn't a birth defect, and that's the bottom line.
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I was refering to the surgery at four he had which was purely cosmetic. Don't some people think of circ'ing as a cosmetic procedure.

I wasn't trying to say foreskin was a birth defect. I knew the analogy wasn't a good one, but it was the best I could come up with.

I am really trying to make everything in my brain come together and make sense. I am not trying to start a debate or anything like that. I just have nagging thoughts I am trying to find answers to.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#27 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 10:06 PM
 
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Nobody thinks you're trying to start anything! I think we are all thrilled you're here with this open, questioning attitude. Keep the thoughts coming.

~*Kristi*~
Tallulah Dare 8-01,  Marcos Gael 12-04, Cormac Mateo 9-09, Leonidas Ronan 11-11

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#28 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 10:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini
I am not even sure what questions I have. I have seen the information and I know the reasons for not circ'ing. It even seems I am falling of the fence and becoming an advocate, but I still am having trouble getting behind the idea that circ=abuse. I think that some people who do know the facts behind why a child should remain intact, but still feel for whatever reason that they should circ. It isn't misinformation at this point, just the parental decision to circ or not. Why do I get a say in this parent's decision for their child? I also understand that the decision should be left to the child b/c it is a permanent change. The same could be said for my decision to put my son through surgery to further fix his nose and lip shape (he was born with cleft lip). I know the analogy isn't the same, but this is where my thoughts are going. I am just trying to be honest in my hesitation.
I know that for me, I didn't view circumcision as a potentially abusive act until quite a way into my research.

I remember there was a poll here asking whether or not circumcision should be illegal. My first instinct was along the lines of "Of course not, you can't take control over parents like that!" As I read other responses to that poll, my point of view shifted dramatically, and I do believe this procedure should be as illegal as female circumcision is.

I'm wondering if maybe this is an issue where something specific and unique has to click within a person. It's very difficult sometimes to look through our cultural conditioning in order to see just what an appalling thing routine infant circumcision is.

As for the part I bolded, I believe that if a parent is truly well informed about the realities of circumcision, there can be no reason good enough to go ahead with it. ETA: Although my opinion on that is admittedly skewed as I have never been under intense circ-related pressure from a husband/partner, nor do I have religious beliefs strong enough to influence me to go against my beliefs about circ.
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#29 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 10:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I was refering to the surgery at four he had which was purely cosmetic. Don't some people think of circ'ing as a cosmetic procedure.

I wasn't trying to say foreskin was a birth defect. I knew the analogy wasn't a good one, but it was the best I could come up with.

I am really trying to make everything in my brain come together and make sense. I am not trying to start a debate or anything like that. I just have nagging thoughts I am trying to find answers to.
Hello and welcome. As far as the comparison to a cleft lip repair, I do understand where you are comming from, but look at it this way. The foreskin is known to have several advantages, thousands of sensitive nerve endings, protects the glans and urethral opening, stimulates the glans during intercourse, ect. Removing it takes away all of those advantages. Repairing a cleft lip does not take anything advantageous away.

And as far as circumcising three boys and then questioning the issue. There is a very well know woman who has also done this. She is Marilyn Milos, the founder of NOCIRC. She had three boys, all circed and then went into nursing school. This is where she saw her first live circumcision. She was horrified that this is what was done to her sons, so she became an advocate for boys everywhere!
http://www.nocirc.org

I hope you find the information you are looking for.
Take care,
Tara

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
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#30 of 69 Old 06-27-2006, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretresistance
As for the part I bolded, I believe that if a parent is truly well informed about the realities of circumcision, there can be no reason good enough to go ahead with it. ETA: Although my opinion on that is admittedly skewed as I have never been under intense circ-related pressure from a husband/partner, nor do I have religious beliefs strong enough to influence me to go against my beliefs about circ.
Your post made a lot of sense. Maybe I am having a harder time with it b/c my family feels leaving a child intact is poor parenting. They feel it causes more problems to leave a child intact.

I don't agree with them as I delve further into the research, but it makes it just one more thing I do that is perceived as radical by my family.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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