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#121 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 12:41 AM
 
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#122 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 12:54 AM
 
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Christopher says: Isn't every reply to questions from newbies filled with emotion? It is for me.
Christopher-
Your definition of 'emotion' and my definition of 'emotion' are two entirely different things I think. If the group is going to ban all forms emotion on this board, then shouldn't there be a consensus about what the definition of emotion is? For instance, what words are strictly off-limits here? What words are too emotional to use???

Can I say 'forced genital cutting'?
Can I say 'cutting culture'?
Can I say disgusting?
Can I say evil?
Can I say ignorant?
Can I say "give me a break?"
What can i say?

How much will the group want to censor? It's going to turn people off if you try to control their every word. I left CAC because there was too much censorship here...not because I was trying to protect myself from your criticism.
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#123 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Lara vanÆsir

Let me also say that perhaps a toning down of emotive language when parents seek information here would be just as effective as creating a different forum. But it seems some would have a problem with this.

Never said I had a problem with it. Just that I reserve the right to post however, as long as it is within UA guidelines, of course. You'll find that, eh, probably 95% of my posts to new people on this board are very welcoming.

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#124 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by kldliam
I left CAC because there was too much censorship here...not because I was trying to protect myself from your critisism.

And I'm glad you're back.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#125 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by MamaTT

Similarly, even though I had a lot of challenges with bf, and I prolly *could* help out on the other bf boards, I only go to Lactivism. A person has only time enough for so many forums...and the favorites will get clicked first.

I believe it is wise not to get too narrow of a focus, and put my vote against having a separate *vent* or "intactivist" forum.
Thank you. Good point.

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#126 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by trmpetplaya
This discussion would have fizzled long ago if it wasn't for you and kldliam (who I really hope is still around ). Time to eat!

love and peace.

Perhaps we should have just let it fizzle! : :

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#127 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:05 AM
 
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A&A, may I join 'MusicLady' in her appreciation?

(Sorry, trumpet. Please tell me if you don't like my pet name for you; but I can never remember your acronym for trumpet player! And I love music, as you know!)

With nearly 4000 posts in Mothering, you are not only a veteran of some stature but also remarkably eloquent. I have read many a 'gentle' post of yours and I know trumpet isn't the only member here who acknowledges that. You have a wisdom born of experience that is enviable.

There... have I buttered you up nicely?

Seriously though, I mean every word of it.

However, my last post needs a response! :

Christopher

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You know you gonna be remembered for the things you say and do."

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#128 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Islay

With nearly 4000 posts in Mothering, you are not only a veteran of some stature but also remarkably eloquent.

Some would say long-winded.: (And this thread alone may put me over 4000!) But thank you.


I think kldliam answered you nicely.


But usually, again probably 95% of the time, I do try to speak with "sensitivity," as you put it, to new people, but I reserve the right not to. (And I really don't understand why you would "relish it" if this were a debate board. I would leave. It would drive me crazy.)

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#129 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:13 AM
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Ok, y'all, so now that we've made up :, what, in your opinion, is the best way to respond to "you're not giving me enough scientific information so I'm not listening, nahnahnahnhanaaaaaa" from new people? (Obviously you don't think I chose the best way to respond to that previously. )

I think, IMHO, that we should test them on the links we HAVE provided, to make sure that they've actually read them.

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#130 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:14 AM
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And we're working our poor mod to death! Lovefest for PuppyFluffer!

:

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#131 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:16 AM
 
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Christopher says:
Does it really make us any the less persuasive if we speak with sensitivity?
I really don't have a problem using sensitivity. I use it more often than not in fact. On some occasions, my patience wears thin. I should not be persecuted for it either. If I exercise "patience" in the majority of my posts, I should think that THAT should make you happy enough. If I am attacking people in 99% of my posts, I could understand your upset, but I am not.
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#132 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by kldliam
I really don't have a problem using sensitivity. I use it more often than not in fact. On some occasions, my patience wears thin. I should not be persecuted for it either. If I exercise "patience" in the majority of my posts, I should think that THAT should make you happy enough. If I am attacking people in 99% of my posts, I could understand your upset, but I am not.




(I need a "me, too" icon).

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#133 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:19 AM
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Now, let's get back to work. Come help this mama:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=496578

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#134 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 02:23 AM
 
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kldliam, so it was you... I did wonder: recognised your expressive style.

I am SO glad you're back! As trumpet said, without your and A&A's input this valuable thread might have fizzled out.

Emotions cover a huge spectrum, of course. Yours and mine are not at odds. I, too, think 'torture', 'mutilation', etc. I simply choose not to use those terms here in response to a newcomer, for the reasons I've given. It doesn't mean I don't feel them.

The biggest problem in forums is the absence of facial expression, tone of voice or the touch of a hand.

A scenario:

Discussion, face to face, with a parent who is thinking seriously about RIC and cannot drag him or herself away from the social pressures of conformity and the tales of 'cleanliness', 'infection' - and so on. After much heartfelt effort, you finally touch an outstretched hand or gently hold an arm or shoulder and with care and concern you softly say: "[Name]... it's mutilation."

OK, so this probably sounds soppy and over sentimental, but it makes my point.

~nay~ has spoken very thoughtfully on this issue. I do hope we can reslove it successfully. Karen posted one message, saying she couldn't understand how she missed this thread but would respond as soon as she had an opportunity. Karen, are you there?

Christopher

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You know you gonna be remembered for the things you say and do."

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#135 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 02:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by A&A
(And I really don't understand why you would "relish it" if this were a debate board. I would leave. It would drive me crazy.)
I can explain that another time, perhaps. But right now it's waaaaay too late for me!

Christopher

Education is the discovery of our own ignorance. Will Durant

 

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You know you gonna be remembered for the things you say and do."

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#136 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 02:42 AM
 
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The biggest problem in forums is the absence of facial expression, tone of voice
Well, we just have to start webcam dates
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#137 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 02:48 AM
 
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kldliam, I have bent over backwards - both here and in PMs - to be open, fair and appreciative of you. I cannot understand why you think I'm persecuting you. It isn't in my nature to persecute anyone.

Then A&A backs you up. I'm saddened and disillusioned.

----------------------------------

Kia, now that's an idea - if I had a webcam!

Christopher

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You know you gonna be remembered for the things you say and do."

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#138 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 03:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Islay
I, too, think 'torture', 'mutilation', etc. I simply choose not to use those terms here in response to a newcomer, for the reasons I've given. It doesn't mean I don't feel them.
Ditto

Mama to my spirited J, and L, my homebirth: baby especially DTaP, MMR (family vax injuries)
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#139 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 03:21 AM
 
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I have caught a bit here and there... but not nearly enough to comment on the exchange.

I think that we usually do a nice job of backing each other up and tempering each other at times. Sometimes I feel compelled to say something in a certain way just because the tone turned in a way that I think is unnecessary

I think when we bring up that the term mutilation/abuse/ etc. it should refer to the action of circumcising or the person that does it. The parents choosing circumcision are not choosing to abuse their child, they are misguided. A very very very few of them are in the category of pro-circ/fetish.

The problem is that newbies do not get that distinction and feel attacked with those type of terms unless they are explained clearly. And they might leave before they feel encouraged to explore the issue.

We all have our stages to go through in uncovering the layers of deception involving circumcision-- remember your audience and where they are at.

Jessica

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#140 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Islay
Isn't every reply to questions from newbies filled with emotion? It is for me. But can we not think twice before we phrase that emotion? Does it really make us any the less persuasive if we speak with sensitivity? I totally understand the wish sometimes to use words and phrases that say exactly what we think; but is that productive? Does it help our cause? Or does it just make us feel better?
: emotion = GOOD, but sometimes (seeing as how this IS an internet message board and it's so easy to misinterpret what someone means) it needs to be toned down a bit - more like, rephrased to be more clear. [I can't even think of a clear way to convey this.... gah!]

(I also love the oboe! As long as it's played well Which reminds me of the quote "No one should be allowed to play the violin until he has mastered it" ~Jim Fiebig )

Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A
I'm not saying that "ranting" on specific questioning threads is usually a good idea, but we should be able to start "rant" threads of our own in the main forum. There's no need to hide in a subforum. Secrecy has perpetuated circ for long enough. If I were new to this board, and I saw a thread (in the main forum) about, "Oh, I'm so incredibly sad that I couldn't talk my brother out of circ'ing my nephew...." etc., it would really pique my interest.
I agree that the threads about helping/failing to help others can be beneficial. Not all of those are "rants" per se though. There are good reasons on both sides of whether to have a separate forum. This is why I'm glad that you and kldliam are here. What sounds like a good idea on the surface can have bad consequences too and we need to acknowledge what those would be (thank you for doing that!!!). Specialising can make things either simpler or more complicated depending on the circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kldliam
How much will the group want to censor? It's going to turn people off if you try to control their every word. I left CAC because there was too much censorship here...not because I was trying to protect myself from your criticism.
I haven't noticed any censoring here... it maybe was mentioned in this thread (not by me), but I do NOT believe in censoring (other than self-censorship) because it goes against all my wacko libertarian beliefs The only censoring that should be going on (other than the UA, of course) is a personal decision. Obviously that's going to be different for every one of us. I think the criteria for self-censorship should be every one of us asking a question such as, "how can I best convince this person, given what I know about them based on their posts, that circumcision is a heinous, evil, mutilating, abusive act." and then post accordingly. Ha, at least that's MY criteria for MY self-censorship : Does anyone else do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A
But usually, again probably 95% of the time, I do try to speak with "sensitivity," as you put it, to new people, but I reserve the right not to. (And I really don't understand why you would "relish it" if this were a debate board. I would leave. It would drive me crazy.)
You certainly can post however you like. Nobody would argue with that, I don't think. Part of this thread is talking about how to be effective and sometimes taking a less sensitive approach is effective But sometimes it's not.... And you definitely are mostly perfectly welcoming and wonderful. Goodness... I am SO glad this isn't a debate board!!! Not that we wouldn't win, hands down, but it would drive me crazy too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A
Ok, y'all, so now that we've made up :, what, in your opinion, is the best way to respond to "you're not giving me enough scientific information so I'm not listening, nahnahnahnhanaaaaaa" from new people? (Obviously you don't think I chose the best way to respond to that previously. )
Well... I didn't quite get the impression from that particular thread that you did, but I think that we should give the scientific info and then set back and give it time to sink in. The thread you refer to wasn't open more than a couple of days and that's not much in real time to have information sink in. Especially with someone who really didn't know anything about the topic (as evidenced by the "but Europeans DO circumcise" bit ). I think had she had more time to absorb the facts, then we could have brought up more of the anecdotal stories and such. She did take kindly to my anecdotal story and non-scientific reason for not circumcising (maybe that's why I have a different view of the thread). The main reason for that, I think, is that I acknowledged that she only wanted science and let her know that I only gave her my story because others had already given her a plethora of links to absorb and I wanted to share my personal experience.

Quote:
I think, IMHO, that we should test them on the links we HAVE provided, to make sure that they've actually read them.
A pop quiz sounds like fun!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
We all have our stages to go through in uncovering the layers of deception involving circumcision-- remember your audience and where they are at.
I'm gonna do a stream-of-consciousness thingy again -

That's very well said. Just to remember that some of these people have never known any different. If the US circumcises and the rest of the world doesn't then that means the US is superior, right? If the US does it, then surely everyone else follows suit, right? Doctors wouldn't do it if it was bad, right? The AAP would take a stronger stance against it if it had such adverse effects, right?

I f*king HATE those misconceptions (and many more, but it's getting early in the morning here). But they're out there and many people truly, honestly believe them. How can they not believe them when that's all they know? It requires a complete paradigm shift to believe that something the all-knowing doctors condone can be THIS horrendous and THIS damaging.

How can we best facilitate the paradigm shift for people who are so entrenched in the societal beliefs that they don't even think twice (or once) about circumcision until they find this message board? By remembering where these people are at. Where they're coming from (a decidedly pro-circumcision society). How we thought before we knew any better (if there was a time when we thought it was okay or no big deal or hadn't researched it). How would we want to be convinced about something like this?

Take... bare feet. If I came up to you and told you that the shoes you were wearing were disgusting, germ-breeding, foot coffins that deform and cripple you, you'd probably think I was a nut (I love my Dvorak keyboard typos - I totally just typed nit then nun and then keybeard). All those things are true, but would me telling you that compel you to learn more about barefooting or just run (while still wearing your shoes) far away from the crazy hippie lady?

Some people will be swayed by blatant facts that prove that they are wrong, but others will need to be convinced with patience and understanding and TIME. The most important thing, IMO, is time. Time for the new folks to digest this extremely disturbing procedure. When I was first looking at circumcision in depth when I was pregnant (there was no chance of us having it done 'cause we want our sons to be intact like their dad, but I was curious) I could only stomach so much information at one time. AND I had neither circumcised a son nor do I have a circumcised dh/dp. It was still hard for me to read this stuff. Very very hard. I still cannot watch that circumcision video. And I've been a hard-core intactivist for well over a year now.

This is not an easy subject to study. It's an easy subject to see is wrong once one reads a bit, but it's so disturbing and sick and wrong. It's so obvious to us. We've read. We've learned about it over time. But other people haven't had that time. I think we need to encourage new posters to TAKE THEIR TIME and digest these disturbing facts.

Sorry for getting so long-winded and I hope it makes as much sense here as it does in my head. I was just writing what came into my head and what made sense to me.

This board has meant so much to me in the past year and a half. I'm so grateful to all of you! We are making a HUGE difference in our world and what a blessing to actually be able to SEE a the difference we make in the intact boys we have helped save

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#141 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 09:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by A&A
I'd much prefer that it stay one forum. Why should we go in "hiding" about our rantings? Perhaps if lurkers read those posts, it will strike a chord in their mind as to how heinous circ is.
Or perhaps we will look border-line unstable?

Obviously once you know a little about this issue you become more receptive to such notions and more accepting but it must be remembered that for those in many areas this is just something which is a routine, it occurs as standard and with only a single question (the "Do you want...?" to which they are required to respond to with an affirmative, as their doctor instructed), if even that on occasion.

So seeing something so standard and ingrained referred to in such absoloutist negative terms considering that prior to their arrival they will only have seen an inversion, if even that.
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#142 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:22 PM
 
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I just wanted to make clear to everyone that I have not once encouraged censorship on this main forum. I believe in our first admendment rights.

~Nay

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#143 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 01:57 PM
 
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I just wanted to make clear to everyone that I have not once encouraged censorship on this main forum. I believe in our first admendment rights.

~Nay
I thought we were all discussing censorship of the emotions. Many people have voted that the (high)emotions should be censored here, under ALL circumstances.
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#144 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 02:16 PM
 
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We all have our stages to go through in uncovering the layers of deception involving circumcision-- remember your audience and where they are at.
I agree with this. I also appreciated Trmpetplaya's long and thoughtful post. But when I am faced with someone who is being outright snotty, it makes my job more difficult. Remember, I'm not even getting paid for this either. I do my best to keep my cool but it isn't always easy.
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#145 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 02:27 PM
 
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Superb post Playa!
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#146 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kldliam
But when I am faced with someone who is being outright snotty, it makes my job more difficult. Remember, I'm not even getting paid for this either. I do my best to keep my cool but it isn't always easy.
yep.

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#147 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 04:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by A&A
Ok, y'all, so now that we've made up :, what, in your opinion, is the best way to respond to "you're not giving me enough scientific information so I'm not listening, nahnahnahnhanaaaaaa" from new people? (Obviously you don't think I chose the best way to respond to that previously. )
ummm, I don't know, but I'm glad to see we've all made up. I hate to fight with people I agree with.

Actually, A&A, after reading your posts explaining why you would be against a separate forum, I have to admit I'm torn. I would love a place where I could just go and write, "I hate my BIL, he's so dumb and won't research it" and that's it and everyone else there would know what I was talking about and all I would get was support, but my BIL couldn't see me saying that, my SIL couldn't see me saying that, so I could still work on them gently IRL, even though I'm furious. (note: I don't actually hate my BIL and SIL. I love them. And they didn't circ my niece or my nephew.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A
I think, IMHO, that we should test them on the links we HAVE provided, to make sure that they've actually read them.
That is exactly what scared me away from the vax forum. All I wanted to know was info about polio, but I saw over and over that to get a simple answer about one thing, you had to prove that you had done research on everything else. But if you had done more research, you probably wouldn't have a simple question in the first place.

Yes, it gets annoying to answer, "no one should retract your son's forekin but him" the 800th time, or talk about the faults in the HIV or UTI studies over and over, but that's the 1000th time we've heard it; it might be the first time they are hearing it. So maybe we should have a protected place where we can say "when will they learn?" and not scare the newer people off.

The point about feeling scared of negativity is valid, I think. I often find myself thinking, "I'm advocating NOT CUTTING OF PART OF THE BABY'S PENIS. why am I trying not to offend her?" I am sometimes amazed that this is even an issue. Why is this end the radical one?

R~mama to 3

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#148 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 04:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kldliam
I thought we were all discussing censorship of the emotions. Many people have voted that the (high)emotions should be censored here, under ALL circumstances.
I just want to make it clear that I don't see thinking about the possibility of a separate "rant room" in my mind equals censoring emotions. In my mind, it would be less about changing what happens here and more about giving us a space where we don't have to explain ourselves every stinking second. the threads would be "I hate them!!!!" and everyone would say, "me too, I know what you mean" and out here we would still answer questions about why we shouldn't let dr.x retract timmy when he turns 1 and why looking like dad is a silly reason to cut off your kid's foreskin, then back to "rant room" and say, "AAAAHHHHH. if one more dad asks me about looking like him, I'll cut off his arm".

ok, that was longer than I meant, but I don't want to advocate tuning down emotions.

R~mama to 3

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#149 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 04:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jessjgh1
We all have our stages to go through in uncovering the layers of deception involving circumcision-- remember your audience and where they are at.

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#150 of 179 Old 08-07-2006, 05:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dnr3301
I just want to make it clear that I don't see thinking about the possibility of a separate "rant room" in my mind equals censoring emotions. In my mind, it would be less about changing what happens here and more about giving us a space where we don't have to explain ourselves every stinking second. the threads would be "I hate them!!!!" and everyone would say, "me too, I know what you mean" and out here we would still answer questions about why we shouldn't let dr.x retract timmy when he turns 1 and why looking like dad is a silly reason to cut off your kid's foreskin, then back to "rant room" and say, "AAAAHHHHH. if one more dad asks me about looking like him, I'll cut off his arm".

ok, that was longer than I meant, but I don't want to advocate tuning down emotions.
That is exactly what I had envisioned. Thank you.

~Nay

Reneé, 34 year old mom to Antonin 8/04 and Arianna 9/06  (6 weeks) 5/08. Married to Matt since 6/03 .  
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