QUESTION: Fused Foreskin on my 2 1/2 year old - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 12:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama
So, is this what ya'll call intactivism then? Coz to me it looks like ripping a mama apart over something she cannot change. Funny thing, perception.
Did you read the entire thread?

~Nay

Reneé, 34 year old mom to Antonin 8/04 and Arianna 9/06  (6 weeks) 5/08. Married to Matt since 6/03 .  
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#92 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 12:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama
In the lactivist forums there has been much discussion about whether it is really beneficial to rip mamas apart over choices made in the context of much misinformation and lack of support.

It would be nice to see some similar discussion among "intactivists." I think it would do a lot more for the cause than the attacking. All the attacking does IMO is make the attackers feel superior. Which is a fun feeling, but not exactly the altruism people are claiming it is.
You know what, you don't apparently spend enough time here to know that we did recently have an extremely long thread about this subject. Some people have a more blunt style of writing and layinng out the facts. If you are feeling defensive, laying out the facts can feel like an attack. I do think posters should try to get a feel for the individual OP and tailor their posts to her situation.

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Originally Posted by thismama
I think that circumcision is an important issue, and that not cutting is better. But when you know better you do better, right? Every mama makes mistakes, including the mamas on this thread who are being so harsh with their judgments. And ITA that he probably will not know the difference, especially since it sounds like his cut was so loose.

And yes, of course your son is perfect.
It has been expressed many times on this thread that we understand and sympathize with this mama, that she has been misinformed by everyone from her doctor to her entire family (her own mother!) The phrase "when you know better, you do better" was said to her with compassion. The approach you are preaching to us was used here.

Her son was perfect when he was born. He was damaged by a doctor's greed and the misinformation that she believed.

~*Kristi*~
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#93 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 12:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lula's Mom
You know what, you don't apparently spend enough time here to know that we did recently have an extremely long thread about this subject.
No, it's true I don't spend enough time here to know that. But, I can tell you honestly that I could not have deduced from this thread that that conversation occurred. And I think that says something.

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If you are feeling defensive, laying out the facts can feel like an attack
True. But I'm not feeling defensive, and this seems like an attack to me. Yes the facts were laid out, and that is good. But it could have been done in a more respectful, gentler way. Gawd knows I'm not the queen of gentle myself, but it is a skill that I think is important in activism, especially when talking about something personal.

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Her son was perfect when he was born. He was damaged by a doctor's greed and the misinformation that she believed.
I don't know, I think our wounds are part of our perfection.

This mama says she was 17 when her son was born. She was sexually abused in her own childhood, and so has a particular concern about not wanting to deal with her child's penis more than she has to. And she was misinformed that circing would mean less care. Her mama told her circ was the right thing to do.

I wish people here understood better that most of the crappy choices mamas make for our children exist within a context of non-support, misinformation, and even abuse of the mama. Dealing aggressively with the context, and gently with the mama, would better meet our end goals, no?
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#94 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 12:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama
I wish people here understood better that most of the crappy choices mamas make for our children exist within a context of non-support, misinformation, and even abuse of the mama. Dealing aggressively with the context, and gently with the mama, would better meet our end goals, no?
I ask you again, show me where I did not deal gently with her and consider all of the factors that went into her decision? Go back and read my posts. I told her I understood how she was misinformed- I empathized with her because that's what I used to believe too. I said it's horrible that she was abused- but she needs therapy, her son didn't need a circumcision. I told her she should be angry at the doctor who did this. She is young and impressionable, I get that and I told her so. I've given her hugs and compassion. And yet you quoted me, saying all of this does not sound like good intactivism to you?


You know, I am inclined to agree that in most cases, our scars make us beautiful or 'perfect'. They are a roadmap showing where we've been and what we've lived through. But not with circumcision. There is nothing beautiful in a scar that says "I was strapped into a Circumstraint when I was 1 day old, and had my foreskin ripped from my glans with a blunt probe, then cut with scissors and sliced off with a scalpel, all without anesthesia". There is nothing perfect about that!

~*Kristi*~
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#95 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 12:48 PM
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So, is this what ya'll call intactivism then? Coz to me it looks like ripping a mama apart over something she cannot change. Funny thing, perception.
She could change her attitude. And she could NOT re-circumcise him, as she is considering doing. And she could not circ other sons in the future. So, there are things she could change.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#96 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 12:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lula's Mom
You show me one place that I have been rude or unkind to her!
Just to clarify, I don't remember what you personally did or didn't say. I just saw your comment about "an intactivist's work is never done" in the context of what I perceive to be the attacking tone of this thread, and that is what I responded to.
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#97 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 12:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by A&A
She could change her attitude. And she could NOT re-circumcise him, as she is considering doing. So, there are things she could change.
Yes, and I believe people are more likely to respond to what we are saying when we are respectful.
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#98 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 12:54 PM
 
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What typically happens here is this: there is a question from a new person. Some of us answer it gently. One or two people may be harsher, but not usually.

Then it goes one of two ways, depending on the response of the OP. If she seems like she's getting it, we keep talking and explaining to her. That is how it most often goes here. At the end, she is grateful and we are overjoyed. Search for the thread "Should I not have my nephew circumcised?" You'll see.

On the other hand, if the OP is staunchly defending "her choice" to have her son cut, then some people are going to get upset and start posting harsher things, trying to shake her out of her mentality. It is very hard for an intactivist to hear somebody defend, over and over, the amputation of a newborn's body part. Some of us can keep our emotions in check, some of us have a hard time on some threads. That is what happened here.

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#99 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 12:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama
Just to clarify, I don't remember what you personally did or didn't say. I just saw your comment about "an intactivist's work is never done" in the context of what I perceive to be the attacking tone of this thread, and that is what I responded to.

Clearly I wrote that considering myself an intactivist, doing the work I consider to be vitally important, in the best way I know how. So if you weren't tallking about me, then don't quote me. You could just as well have made your comments that you found the thread harsh, without making that quote.

~*Kristi*~
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#100 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 01:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lula's Mom
On the other hand, if the OP is staunchly defending "her choice" to have her son cut, then some people are going to get upset and start posting harsher things, trying to shake her out of her mentality.
In this case, I don't see the OP staunchly defending her choice. I see her saying, basically 'I won't use the word regret, because I don't regret things I can't change in this life. But if I had another boy, I might make a different choice.' And my perception is that people basically jump all over her, trying to get her to use the word 'regret.' And in the process some very personal, very hurtful things are said that, if I were the OP and new to this site, would send me running in the other direction to tell my friends about the crazies who think circ is torture over on MDC.

Quote:
It is very hard for an intactivist to hear somebody defend, over and over, the amputation of a newborn's body part. Some of us can keep our emotions in check, some of us have a hard time on some threads. That is what happened here.
Yes, I can understand that. I have a hard time with it too, moreso seeing cut baby boys IRL than hearing about it on the internet. I find it very disturbing, and very sad.

And I have a hard time with my inclination to judge the mama... I am very judgmental by nature, and I need to sort of try to keep it balanced with what I know about why a mama might make that decison for her son. Doesn't mean it's a good decision, but that there are reasons, yk? And addressing the reasons and *respectfully* providing information is the best intactivist strategy, kwim?
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#101 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 01:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lula's Mom
Clearly I wrote that considering myself an intactivist, doing the work I consider to be vitally important, in the best way I know how. So if you weren't tallking about me, then don't quote me. You could just as well have made your comments that you found the thread harsh, without making that quote.
Well, not to nitpick, but I was talking about you. That comment, in the context of the thread, seemed to me to communicate approval of the harshness, and maybe even that there was a common understanding amongst "intactivists" on this board that this thread constitutes intactivism.
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#102 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 01:17 PM
 
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Jaydens_mom, you wrote that you would prevent the doctor if s/he mentioned pulling the foreskin away from the glans.

I wanted to warn you so you know in advance: virtually all doctors will simply yank it (VERY painful!!!!!) without asking or warning either you or your son.

I would recommend telling the doctor VERY FIRMLY, and UPFRONT that s/he is NOT to do this. You should also stand very near your son during the examination and physically stop the doctor should it look like this will happen (though unfortunately it usually happens too quickly to prevent).

Good luck.

Homeschooling mama to 6 year old DD.

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#103 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 01:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jaydens_mom
This sounds about right, yes.
As long as it is self fixable ( the body does it on its own ) then that is great.. i didn't want it to be an issue for him later on in life when he sees an uncircumcised LOOSE skined penis erect and wonders why his head is not fully visable like that.
Basically all intact foreskins are fused to the glans, right? So the remnants of his body have just attempted to do the same.

That normally dissolves and the growth of the penis which occurs between infancy and adulthood sorts it out. So nothing to concern yourself with really.
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#104 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 01:21 PM
 
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That comment meant that *I am an intactivist*, and *I* stayed up until 3 a.m. to talk to this mama because I was afraid to leave her. I thought she was close to understanding, and wanted to keep the dialogue going. I was exhausted and my whole family was asleep in the room around me, but I stayed until she logged off. Because an intactivist's work is never done.

*and at that point, this thread was on Toddlers, not this board.

~*Kristi*~
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#105 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 01:37 PM
 
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Examples of her staunch defense of circumcision:
Quote:
He is perfect. I have no regrets.
(Not the same as "I won't use the word 'regret'.)

Quote:
My opinion is not going to change.
Quote:
Circumcision is not UNCOMMON .. otherwise it wouldn't be an option when you give birth to a boy whether or not to have him circumcised.
Sure it used to be a cultural/religious thing at one time, and now it is a cosmetic thing, but that does not make it WRONG.
In your OWN opinion, you may believe that it is wrong.. but there are still a significant amount of parents out there who believe in the freedom of choice, and believe it is right.
Oh, I almost forgot this one:
Quote:
I am not altering my opinion of circumcision. I was NOT informed of the fusing process... however i had full knowledge about loss of sensitivity and etc.. as my cousin and i both had our children in the same month and discussed this (his son is uncut). Sure maybe when he is having sex it will not feel as great as it might for an uncircumcised male, but having always being circumcised how is he to know the difference..
As I said, I feel she is getting closer to understanding. And if that understanding includes regret, that can be a healthy thing. It means she understands where she went wrong and wouldn't do it again. It doesn't have to mean self-flagellation for the rest of her days. We are very, very accepting of mamas who change their postion on circumcision here. They are welcomed with open arms. Those who say "I won't change my opinion", not so much. Personally I feel she said that only because shhe has not had enough time to think about it.

~*Kristi*~
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#106 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 02:34 PM
 
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Lula'smom, you have been exceptional. I hope that this extremely informational thread that you clearly put your heart & soul into does not continue to be derailed. Thank you for your selfless work of intactivism.
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#107 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 02:51 PM
 
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Hi, Jaydens_Mom.

I have four boys, three of which are circ'ed and one intact. My second son's circ looks similar to what you described in your son. I have left it completely alone. It will most probably resolve itself. If, at puberty, it hasn't, then we may look into consulting a urologist, but, if it doesn't inhibit normal sexual function and urination, again, we will leave it alone. And I really hadn't thought much about it until now. LOL. But, I have learned a lot from this thread.

I do regret that I circ'ed my three older sons, but, at the same time, I cannot change what happened simply because I want to assuage my guilt. I really have no guilt, as I didn't know any better at the time. My fourth son is intact and I certainly believe in the adage of "You know better, you do better."

However, I believe circumcision is a personal choice and I will not be circumcising any future sons (although I will not be having any more) and I will certainly aid my children in their quest for knowledge when they have their children. I also understand the arguments regarding that circumcision is done to someone else who is not choosing this. It does make sense.

But, you cannot undo the past and you can certainly change the future.

My hopes are the future will be changed for you. Good luck and take care.
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#108 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 03:00 PM
 
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Thank you, TigerTail, for being so nice, and for reminding me that this has gone much too far OT. Perhaps if another poster thinks that this board's regular posters are too harsh, she will come and post gently herself, to balance out the tone. Or perhaps she will read a lot of other threads and realize that the tone here generally is quite welcoming.

But I am proud of the way we do things here- I think it's a wonderful forum with incredible people. Back to Jaydens_mom's thread!

~*Kristi*~
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#109 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 03:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama
I think that circumcision is an important issue, and that not cutting is better. But when you know better you do better, right? Every mama makes mistakes, including the mamas on this thread who are being so harsh with their judgments. And ITA that he probably will not know the difference, especially since it sounds like his cut was so loose.

And yes, of course your son is perfect.
Let's be clear. "Not cutting" is not only "better", but cutting is wrong. It is also bad. This is not a "Gee, I think not circumcising is better so I hope people do that" issue. This is not just an "important issue". This is an issue that we intactivists feel should be illegal so that we'd never have to have a conversation like this one ever ever again. I wish the term "intactivist" would cease to exist because circumcision has been outlawed. I'd love to be out of a "job" and so would everyone else that posts in CAC.

Just to clarify.

So please don't assume that it makes us feel, as you say "superior" when we "attack someone". It pretty much makes me feel sick that I even have to have these conversations at all. Maybe it makes you feel superior or someone you know feel superior when you discuss the relatvie merits of human milk vs. formula for babies, but it does not make intactivists feel superior to discuss someone cutting the genitals of their child. And it's insulting that you would say so.
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#110 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 03:23 PM
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Yes, and I believe people are more likely to respond to what we are saying when we are respectful.

I was responding to you saying that she can't change the situation. Some of that is not true.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#111 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 03:25 PM
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.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#112 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 03:35 PM
 
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I'm also going to add that I hate that this thread got so derailed. I've been following it since it was in toddlers and I felt some very good progress was being made and the dialoguing going on was informative and would help someone, even if not the OP, maybe someone lurking. Now Jaden's mom will have to wade through all the caca to read what she needs to read. Same for any lurkers trying to learn about circumcision. What a shame. I didn't think the posts were at all "attacking", especially when you consider the fact that heads were exploding all over CAC at some of the statements posted, I think people were successfully educating and discussing, not attacking at all.
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#113 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lact-o-Mama
Jaydens_Mom

I just have a question for you, meant with complete sincerity as I am truly curious:

How did you find out about MDC? We know you're *new* as yesterdays post was your 1st ( and you are now over 40, WOW )

* However wrong or mis-informed everyone feels you were at having your son circ'ed, it was YOU'RE doing and if YOU"RE fine with that, that is truly what matters here. We all do things that might make our *neighbours* cringe.
My sister is due any day now and says with certainty that she will circ' a boy . She is currently witnessing me nurse my 3.5yo and said to me the other day...."I leave you alone about the choices you make, now leave me alone..." Hmmph. I put my foot in my mouth as up until that day I had been sending her a barroge of links on circ's, vidoe clips etc.
If she has a boy, I will have to cry on the shoulders of the Mammas here as my family is pro-circ as yours is.
I was looking up fused foreskin and etc on google and i came across what i am assuming to be an old thread on this site, ( i cant find it now !?) and someone asked about thier sons fused foreskin and i thought that maybe if i signed up and explained my situation i could get a more informal answer. I didn't realize this was an anti-circumcision and etc forum :| I think im finally starting to realize i came across the wrong site for my opinions..
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#114 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 03:44 PM
 
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This thread has really upset me.
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#115 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by thismama
If the OP is a fake ya'll can look at this as a dry run and maybe talk about how you could respond better next time?
I am not a fake. I am a 19 year old mother of a 2 1/2 year old boy whom is circumcised. I grew up in a small town where it is a common procedure. I think i just stumbled across the wrong site to ask my question.
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#116 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 03:55 PM
 
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Jaydens_mom, it is clear you came to your opinions during a difficult time, when you were a minor yourself, with your traumas uncleared, with your mother sharing her own ignorance from the authority of her position.

I hope you will table any concerns about your son's penis for now. You've got a lot on your plate. Nothing need be done as your worst case concerns about his penis cannot come to pass for years, if ever. The best think you can do now as a mother is leave it alone and revisit it in a couple of years. Perhaps it will resolve on its own before then, or perhaps you will table it until he gets to puberty and he can participate on a meaningful level with you in decisions regarding his body.

We seem to have a preoccupation with our small children's genitals in North American culture. We want them to be cosmetically perfect from babyhood according to our needs not theirs. Then we often teach them to feel shame for being naked in toddlerhood. Simultaneously we prefer they get no pleasure from them until they are adults and shame them for touching themselves. I don't always understand.

I don't agree with every party line of MDC either but I do find this place a fine forum for reading and sharing wisdom. I hope you will stay.
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#117 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You know what upsets me?
That i didn't read into what this site was about before asking my question
If i would have known that you were all anti-circ and that i would have been bombarded with information that is not going to help me in the future because im unable to have any future children, then i would have never signed up.
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#118 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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my mother was informed by my family doctor ( the same one that circumcised my son ) back when my brother was still in her womb (18 1/2 years ago ) that an uncircumcised penis required TONS of extra care. She only told me what she still knew to be true. Obviously it has been medically proven wrong since then.. but there are tons of older mothers out there that likely don't know that and still think what they were told 18 years ago is true.
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#119 of 119 Old 08-12-2006, 04:31 PM
 
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There has been excellent information shared on this discussion as well as some deviations that weren't necessary.

I am unable to review this thread properly at the moment due to "real life" but I will be back this evening to do so.

For the time being, I am going to close the discussion.

"To err is human, to forgive, canine." - Unknown
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