Was there ever a ruling in that court case where the divorced parents were fighting over the boys circ status (the mom wanted him circ'd and the dad didn't)? I remember the ruling was expected in August, and well, it's August...
I spoke to David the attorney, about this case a couple of weeks ago. He said that the court is on some kind of recess until the Fall. He said he thinks the decision will come in the Fall but he can't predict exactly when. It's just a judge deciding i believe, not a jury.
You know what sad? this family is allowing the decision of whether or not THIER son gets circumcised to lay in the hands of a man they don't even know.
Also, if unfortunately that child ends up being circumcised, by the time the ruling is final the poor child will be old enough to actually REALLY feel everything thats happening, and the poor kid is going to go through hell.. even with the healing process.
( im not saying that newborns don't feel it, but this kids gunna SHOW he feels it )
Originally Posted by Jaydens_mom
You know what sad? this family is allowing the decision of whether or not THIER son gets circumcised to lay in the hands of a man they don't even know.
Also, if unfortunately that child ends up being circumcised, by the time the ruling is final the poor child will be old enough to actually REALLY feel everything thats happening, and the poor kid is going to go through hell.. even with the healing process.
( im not saying that newborns don't feel it, but this kids gunna SHOW he feels it )
Yeah, it's not that he will feel it anymore at an older age, he'll just be aware of what he's feeling. It's just the thought process that is different. It actually hurts more for infants for 2 reasons...they aren't anesthetised, and their nerves aren't myalenated...so pain is MUCH worse.
Originally Posted by frenchie
Yeah, it's not that he will feel it anymore at an older age, he'll just be aware of what he's feeling. It's just the thought process that is different. It actually hurts more for infants for 2 reasons...they aren't anesthetised, and their nerves aren't myalenated...so pain is MUCH worse.
Well what i mean is its one thing to have a baby who had the operation but doesn't ACT any differently afterwards while its healing, its another that the kid understand something about his penis has been altered and looks down and grabs it and is in VISABLE pain..
Jaydens mom: Well what i mean is its one thing to have a baby who had the operation but doesn't ACT any differently afterwards while its healing, its another that the kid understand something about his penis has been altered and looks down and grabs it and is in VISABLE pain..
Whether or not a circ is done at age 8 or 2 days old, the boy will only act one way afterwards. Hurt. Just because a baby is preverbal doesn't mean he isn't in equal amounts of pain too. It is true that the 8 year old is cognizant of the changed look, but he certainly suffers just as much as the baby from the invasiveness of it.
Please do not underestimate the the pain & confusion that an infant suffers too. IMO, one is not worse or better than the other, they are both equally traumatic.
Originally Posted by kldliam
Whether or not a circ is done at age 8 or 2 days old, the boy will only act one way afterwards. Hurt. Just because a baby is preverbal doesn't mean he isn't in equal amounts of pain too. It is true that the 8 year old is cognizant of the changed look, but he certainly suffers just as much as the baby from the invasiveness of it.
Please do not underestimate the the pain & confusion that an infant suffers too. IMO, one is not worse or better than the other, they are both equally traumatic.
Everything i say always gets TAKEN the total opposite way that i meant it..
ok...let me explain AGAIN what i was trying to say...
I was not saying it is any less painful for a baby to be circumcised then it is for a 2 year old or an 8 year old. I understand that they ALL undergo the SAME procedure, with the same amount of pain.
What i was saying is that a newborn baby can't say "OUCH it HURTS" or etc... such as a 2 year old or 8 year old can... ( which would be what i meant by VISABLE pain )
I was saying that if they would have chosen at BIRTH to have that child circumcised ( as unfortunate as that would be ), then the newborn would be less likely to remember the whole thing.. whereas a 2 year old or 8 year old would remember the after pain and perhaps even the pain of the actual procedure ( even though they are put to sleep during it at that age )...
* I know i would have if i were a boy circumcised at 2 or 8, i would remember. I remember LOTS of stuff that happened when i was that young, but NOTHING that happened when i was a newborn *
It's my understanding that the boy in question is already a toddler, so it's not really an issue of baby vs. toddler/older child anyway.
So what if a baby can't articulate his suffering with words? His shrieks and tears make the discomfort involved abundantly clear.
At BEST, a newborn gets a local anesthetic while strapped to a molded rigid plastic board. An older baby, toddler, child, or teen gets a GENERAL and is completely out during the surgery---so, no "Ouch" or memory of the actual procedure in that instance either.
Newborns most definately elicit "visible" as well as audible pain.
Jen
PS. The older the child the more likely that his foreskin and glans have naturally separated, thus no forceful separation would be required. With newborns, it's literally like tearing a fingernail back before the foreskin is cut off.
Originally Posted by Jaydens_mom
the newborn would be less likely to remember the whole thing.. whereas a 2 year old or 8 year old would remember the after pain and perhaps even the pain of the actual procedure ( even though they are put to sleep during it at that age )...
I'm not sure if you've done any research on the documented pyschological effects that circumcision has, but a good place to start is here:
Kira: I'm not sure if you've done any research on the documented pyschological effects that circumcision has, but a good place to start is here:
Thank you for saying this. The long-term effects
of a Birth trauma like circ are frequently discussed by Intactivists. Psychiatrist (such as Rima Laibow) agree that circ impairs mother-child bonding.
Many people feel that RIC has lasting psychological consequences. Our unconscience life is very complex, that is where early experiences are stored I believe.
Not remembering something on a conscience level doesn't mean that it is not still with you on a deeper level or that it is not effecting behavior/relationships or emotional well-being.
Jayden's mom: What i was saying is that a newborn baby can't say "OUCH it HURTS" or etc... such as a 2 year old or 8 year old can... ( which would be what i meant by VISABLE pain )
Newborns can say, 'Ouch it hurts', they do so by screaming and crying in visable pain.
Well, if he *needs* circ so bad, why is it ok to wait 3 months to have it done, kwim? It's going to be very hypocritical if the judge rules it should be done.
Just my thought. If it really were urgent (and I 100% believe that circ is 100% wrong in this case), then the ruling should have been rushed.
When my son was a newborn and he was circ'd , he did not cry about it AFTER it was done... he didn't show any signs of discomfort..
Where as now that hes 2 1/2 and that stupid pediatrican decided to forcefully retract the remaining foreskin, he is showing the AFTER pain.. constantly grabbing at his penis and saying OUCH MOMMY, IT HURTS!
I did not ONCE say that the actual procedure isn't painful for the newborn.
But IME they show far less signs of discomfort AFTER the fact then a 2 year old or 8 year old would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture
It's my understanding that the boy in question is already a toddler, so it's not really an issue of baby vs. toddler/older child anyway.
So what if a baby can't articulate his suffering with words? His shrieks and tears make the discomfort involved abundantly clear.
At BEST, a newborn gets a local anesthetic while strapped to a molded rigid plastic board. An older baby, toddler, child, or teen gets a GENERAL and is completely out during the surgery---so, no "Ouch" or memory of the actual procedure in that instance either.
Newborns most definately elicit "visible" as well as audible pain.
Jen
PS. The older the child the more likely that his foreskin and glans have naturally separated, thus no forceful separation would be required. With newborns, it's literally like tearing a fingernail back before the foreskin is cut off.
Originally Posted by kldliam
Not remembering something on a conscience level doesn't mean that it is not still with you on a deeper level or that it is not effecting behavior/relationships or emotional well-being.
Ever wonder why men shutter at the thought of a sharp object by their privates??
Don't worry about it. I get what you are saying. Some times people get caught up in semantics.
You are right, it is sad that the parents will have to hear the child COMPLAIN about it daily.... sad... but just. If they do it at this age they may understand what a mistake it was.
I just hope the bio-dad can get the whole thing called off so the boy doesn't have to go through it at all.
Originally Posted by Jaydens_mom
Augh... once again
I WAS REFERING TO AFTTTERRRR THE PROCEDURE.
When my son was a newborn and he was circ'd , he did not cry about it AFTER it was done... he didn't show any signs of discomfort..
Where as now that hes 2 1/2 and that stupid pediatrican decided to forcefully retract the remaining foreskin, he is showing the AFTER pain.. constantly grabbing at his penis and saying OUCH MOMMY, IT HURTS!
I did not ONCE say that the actual procedure isn't painful for the newborn.
But IME they show far less signs of discomfort AFTER the fact then a 2 year old or 8 year old would.
Jaydens_mom,
With all due respect, a newborn is healing in a diaper with his fresh wound frequently exposed to the sting of urine and feces. Unlike an older child, his wound isn't just the ring around his penis where the skin was cut; because the foreskin had to be forcefully separated (it's normally 'glued' to the glans, literally attached like a fingernail to a nailbed), the entire glans is an open, raw, weepy wound.
Also, unlike older children who undergo general anesthesia for their circumcisions, newborns -at best- get Infant Tylenol for post-op pain. It is a myth that just because a baby isn't crying he's not in pain. Neonatal pain indicators are not the same as those for older children and adults. Pain scales for babies take note of cry, grimace, flexion of arms and legs, respiratory rate, heartrate, cortisol levels, and more. In addition, an older child could receive more effective (narcotic) post-op pain medications.
So, it's not necessarily that a newborn shows far less discomfort than a 2 year old or 8 year old, it's that the indicators are different and you have to know what you're looking for.
The decision has been deferred until September 19. The judge has been ill. The guardian appointed for the child has opined that since the boy is ok right now circ should be deferred.
I know what forcefully separated foreskin looks like... as i said in my last post, MY SON JUST HAD HIS REMAINING FORESKIN FORCEFULLY RETRACTED/SEPARATED FROM THE GLANDS A FEW DAYS AGO FROM A STUPID PED WHO I HAD TOLD NOT TO BUT DID ANYWAYS.
He won't even allow me to touch his penis when he goes pee to direct it into the bowl now.. ( he would before) when i try all i hear is OUUUUUCHHHH!! IT HURTTTSSS!!!!!!, and instead he pees all over the seat and bowl because his arms are to short to actually stand up straight and still reach his penis to aim it into the bowl himself, and he needs me to physically SHOW him how to aim it or he won't get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture
Jaydens_mom,
With all due respect, a newborn is healing in a diaper with his fresh wound frequently exposed to the sting of urine and feces. Unlike an older child, his wound isn't just the ring around his penis where the skin was cut; because the foreskin had to be forcefully separated (it's normally 'glued' to the glans, literally attached like a fingernail to a nailbed), the entire glans is an open, raw, weepy wound.
Also, unlike older children who undergo general anesthesia for their circumcisions, newborns -at best- get Infant Tylenol for post-op pain. It is a myth that just because a baby isn't crying he's not in pain. Neonatal pain indicators are not the same as those for older children and adults. Pain scales for babies take note of cry, grimace, flexion of arms and legs, respiratory rate, heartrate, cortisol levels, and more. In addition, an older child could receive more effective (narcotic) post-op pain medications.
So, it's not necessarily that a newborn shows far less discomfort than a 2 year old or 8 year old, it's that the indicators are different and you have to know what you're looking for.
As I understand the particulars of the case, circumcision of the child in question wasn't an issue until the mother married a man who is himself circumcised and who insisted that his stepson be circumcised as well.
I might say this puts the Cinderella story in proper perspective where evil step-parents are concerned, but that would only be my personal opinion.
As the boy in the case is eight years old, I'm sure he'll remember what was done to him and the healing period afterwards for the rest of his life. What I wonder about is how the boy will feel towards his mother after she let a relative newcomer in his life dictate the appearance and function of the most private and personal part of his body.
Originally Posted by BamaDude
As I understand the particulars of the case, circumcision of the child in question wasn't an issue until the mother married a man who is himself circumcised and who insisted that his stepson be circumcised as well.
I might say this puts the Cinderella story in proper perspective where evil step-parents are concerned, but that would only be my personal opinion.
As the boy in the case is eight years old, I'm sure he'll remember what was done to him and the healing period afterwards for the rest of his life. What I wonder about is how the boy will feel towards his mother after she let a relative newcomer in his life dictate the appearance and function of the most private and personal part of his body.
THANK YOU !!! that's exactly what i have been trying to say all along.. heck i think i even said it in ALMOST those exact words... but still people didn't take it the right way...
That is really sad that a mother would allow her new man to have THAT much say on what goes on with her son ( he should have close to NO say exspecially when it comes to the childs body )... What if they don't even stay together?! then this poor child is going to be circumcised because of some guy that doesn't even have a role in his life anymore...
I REALLY hope the father wins this case... Now that i know the kid is 8, I can't see why the judge would rule against him.
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