Help me convince DH not to circ UPDATED - Mothering Forums

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Old 08-24-2006, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, so we're thinking about TTC and I refuse to TTC until we get this issue ironed out. I don't want to circ, DH isn't sure how he feels.

Since I'm biased he doesn't totally believe everything I say and I've urged him to research it for himself (he procrastinates). But the other night he asked me "Where did it come from?" Since many other countries DON'T circ, WHY do americans and HOW did it become so popular....

I explained about the doc who recommended it (along with female circ) as a way to prevent masturbation. But other than that I drew a blank.

So, which of you wise women (oops or men) can help me briefly explain the history and rationale behind circ in the US.

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Old 08-24-2006, 08:13 PM
 
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that really is where it came from.


It was a preventive to masturbation


Back then they believed masturbation was what caused MANY illnesses including blindness/paralysis and retardation.


They tried to make it as painful as possible and did it to young men and boys, not babies. They said the more blistering they caused the more effective it is.


Search it up in medical journals such as the lancet, there's documentation for it.



Hysterectomies were performed to stop that once a month hysteria young women would undergo. Thank god they realized the folly of that, if they gave every young woman a hysterectomy we wouldn't be here today.

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Old 08-24-2006, 08:16 PM
 
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Old 08-24-2006, 08:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuestionGal
Since I'm biased he doesn't totally believe everything I say and I've urged him to research it for himself (he procrastinates).
And by "biased", do you mean "right" ?
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Old 08-24-2006, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Holy Moly! Thanks so much Yoshua!!! Some of that stuff.... whoa, seriously scary.

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Old 08-24-2006, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by InDaPhunk
And by "biased", do you mean "right" ?
hee hee hee, i totally agree! He's truly open-minded... but he wants ALL of the facts first and for some reason the facts that I recite just don't ring as true (because I have a definite opinion) Hence the whole, fine, YOU go do the research THEN we'll talk. but at least he asked a question (that's a big step forward)

This is the DH who slept on the couch after I said "Good for them!" in front of the in-laws when SIL chose not to circ.

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Old 08-24-2006, 08:46 PM
 
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How about because it's not his penis to alter?
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Old 08-24-2006, 08:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by laneylue
How about because it's not his penis to alter?

That doesn't convince men who are asking for facts.


It wasn't their parents penis to alter either, but they think they are 'just fine' even though they are circed.


Useful information is needed for a man who says 'bring me proof' witty retorts usually make them more firm in their beliefs.

I was one of those men originally.

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Old 08-24-2006, 08:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshua
That doesn't convince men who are asking for facts.


It wasn't their parents penis to alter either, but they think they are 'just fine' even though they are circed.


Useful information is needed for a man who says 'bring me proof' witty retorts usually make them more firm in their beliefs.

I was one of those men originally.
That's too bad. Luckily, my husband was not one of those men so I guess different things work on different people.

Imagine that.

Oh, and I don't think anything is very witty about it not being his body part to alter.
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Old 08-24-2006, 08:53 PM
 
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Boys are born with the foreskin. That's the default. He ought to be convincing you why it needs to be cut off, not the other way around. He needs to explain why your boy needs immediate surgery.
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Old 08-24-2006, 09:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laneylue
That's too bad. Luckily, my husband was not one of those men so I guess different things work on different people.

Imagine that.

Oh, and I don't think anything is very witty about it not being his body part to alter.

You wouldn't. That is because you are an intactivist.

Try living the life of a mutilated man who doesn't believe there is anything wrong with him.

That statement would be 'witty' and have no 'proof' backing it which is what the man asked for.

Glad your husband didn't have the emotional baggage that 90% of the men who come to terms with what happened to their bodies have.

and 95% of statistics are pulled up on the fly.

good for you and your family but she was asking for facts.

Which... your reputable sources you sited were?.... thats right. imagine that

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Old 08-24-2006, 09:10 PM
 
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Make him sit down and watch the Circumcision Video that I just bumped up. If he can do it after that... well I don't have words.
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Old 08-24-2006, 09:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshua
You wouldn't. That is because you are an intactivist.

Try living the life of a mutilated man who doesn't believe there is anything wrong with him.

That statement would be 'witty' and have no 'proof' backing it which is what the man asked for.

Glad your husband didn't have the emotional baggage that 90% of the men who come to terms with what happened to their bodies have.

and 95% of statistics are pulled up on the fly.

good for you and your family but she was asking for facts.

Which... your reputable sources you sited were?.... thats right. imagine that
My apologies. In the future I'll run all of my posts by you first then so you can deem whether or not they are helpful.

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Old 08-24-2006, 09:39 PM
 
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Hey, um guys.... I think there was a question trying to get answered. Maybe you can continue your discussion via PM in order to stay on topic. I don't want useful information getting lost in the midst of your conversation!
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Old 08-24-2006, 10:40 PM
 
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I have this as one of my bookmarks to keep handy and I really like it:

http://www.icgi.org/medicalization_o...ion.htm#Page_1

Or:

http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/5...rcumcision.htm
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Old 08-24-2006, 10:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coloradoalice
Hey, um guys.... I think there was a question trying to get answered. Maybe you can continue your discussion via PM in order to stay on topic. I don't want useful information getting lost in the midst of your conversation!
Exactly!

To the OP. I would sit down with your DH and have him watch the circumcision video. I had my husband watch it even though we were dead set against cutting our baby. My husband came down from the computer room and his face was ghost white and his eyes were red from crying
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Old 08-24-2006, 11:15 PM
 
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Something I have started telling people is to google "botched circumcisions" and let dh read some of the stories. They are pretty powerful.
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Old 08-25-2006, 01:47 AM
 
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This is a great list of articles http://www.cirp.org/library/ It is "the top index page of the Circumcision Reference Library. The Library is an online collection of abstracts, full text articles, and other material relating to male circumcision." The articles here are well researched and documented. I found it from the http://www.nocirc.org site which I think also has good information, but from a more obviously biased standpoint.

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Old 08-25-2006, 03:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coloradoalice
Make him sit down and watch the Circumcision Video that I just bumped up. If he can do it after that... well I don't have words.
This is what finally did it for my dh. He was adamant that ds be circ'd despite all my well reasoned arguments against it, and it was the video that ultimately did it. He almost threw up.
If that hadn't worked, I can honestly tell you that I would have pulled the "I'm the mom, its my decision" card out. However unfair it may have seemed to dh, my baby's well-being was more important, and I would have refused outright.

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Old 08-25-2006, 12:09 PM
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Say, "I just can't let you do that to our son." Keep repeating.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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Old 08-25-2006, 12:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by laneylue
My apologies. In the future I'll run all of my posts by you first then so you can deem whether or not they are helpful.


It would be appreciated

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Old 08-25-2006, 02:09 PM
 
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The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

The moveable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto its shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or “glans” of the penis for the life of its owner

80-85% of the world’s male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America).

Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child.
The forskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.

Male circumsision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

No health organization in the world recommends circumcision for male infants.
The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 56% today.

There are NO medical benifits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such more insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

When the forskin is removed 30% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Because 30-50% of the total penile skin is removed during a RIC. Depending on the Dr. doing it and the method used. Once it is gone it can never be gotten back.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

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Old 08-25-2006, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you for the posters who got this thread back on topic.
My game plan is to help DH reach the conclusion that we are not going to circ any son we have. But he'll need to reach that conclusion "on his own" I know how he works and if I don't let him discover the truth for himself it won't work. I know that if I draw a hard line I'll alienate DH and I'm not ready to do that yet.
So my plan is to:
1) have him conduct his own research on the internet and if he still wants to do it then...
2) have a heart to heart about why I don't think it's right then....
3) Have him watch a video with the understanding that IF after watching the video he STILL wants to circ then he'll be the one "holding baby's hand"
4) We're not going to have a hospital birth so circing won't be an option until MUCH later (all the hoops to get an appt w/ a urologist will mean they'll have to use anesthesia and hopefully enough time will pass that he'll see foreskin as "normal")
5) play the mom card and just flat refuse (my absolute last ditch effort)

DH is generally open-minded and he's open to the idea of not circing. He just feels that "how can it be THAT bad if it's been done for 60 years..." "If it was really so wrong why didn't medical establishment stop doing it years ago" "my parents circ'd me and I'm okay" So he's asking questions and requesting facts to work through it all. He wants to make sure that we make the RIGHT decision, he's just not sure what that is yet.

If I get witty or snarky or whatever you call it, it'll jut shut down the dialog we have and that won't do anyone any good.... remember, I'm not willing to TTC until we get this worked out. Any ideas on how to get him to actually sit down and do research??? I can repeat information all day long but it's not as impactful as if he read/discovered it on his own.

I did however share with him some of the info I got off Yoshua's recommended sites last night... he just got really quiet and then we went to bed. I'm assuming he was thinking. :

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Old 08-25-2006, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJr
Boys are born with the foreskin. That's the default. He ought to be convincing you why it needs to be cut off, not the other way around. He needs to explain why your boy needs immediate surgery.
The only thing is we both know that he's not going to convince me and i don't want not circing our son to be a point of contention. I don't want it to be "well, DH couldn't convince me to do it, so we didn't" that puts all the "power" in my hands when I feel it should be a joint decision.

Plus when I ask him "what are your reasons for wanting/ not wanting to circ" he always says "i don't know" or "i'm not sure"


ughhhh. It's so frustrating trying to make a horse drink water!

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Old 08-25-2006, 09:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by QuestionGal
Plus when I ask him "what are your reasons for wanting/ not wanting to circ" he always says "i don't know" or "i'm not sure"
He says that because the whole circumcision issue is a big ole' huge gnarly pill for him to swallow. The implications involved can be very overwhelming and daunting to a circumcised man:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html
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Old 08-26-2006, 12:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuestionGal
DH is generally open-minded and he's open to the idea of not circing. He just feels that "how can it be THAT bad if it's been done for 60 years..." "If it was really so wrong why didn't medical establishment stop doing it years ago" "my parents circ'd me and I'm okay" So he's asking questions and requesting facts to work through it all. He wants to make sure that we make the RIGHT decision, he's just not sure what that is yet.
Given these concerns. here are two specific pages off the site I mentiond before. The first one is a reprint of a brochure talking about the normal development of an intact penis, its info I wish I had printed out sooner. The second may be a repeat of info you have from another page, but it can be good to see things like this from more than one source.

http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap/ - Newborns: Care of the Uncircumcised Penis : Guidelines for Parents
American Academy of Pediatrics


http://www.cirp.org/pages/whycirc.html - What were the original motivations behind routine infant circumcision in the West?

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Old 08-26-2006, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Awesome! Thanks for all the great links!!

Now, does anyone have any suggestions on HOW to get DH to actually do reasearch?

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Old 08-26-2006, 04:53 PM
 
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Print out some ot all of the pages and then remove all reading materials from the bathroom and just leave the pages in their for him to read maybe put them together in a binder and then it's there for him to start reading. It may be a little pushy but could be a start. Someone else I know left their computer open to a web site and her dh went in to use it found one of the sites started to read and relized what was stollen from him. If I think of anything else I will add good luck to you. or find an intact friendly ped who knows how wrong it is and refuses to preform them take DH in to talk to them about it. I know my previous ped and OB both refused to them.
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Old 08-26-2006, 05:55 PM
 
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I had already done research and brought it to my husband, after which we discussed matters and decided against circumcising our son. He then started doing his own research and realized just how horrible it really is. Now he's absolutely dead-set against it where before he was still on the fence a little but leaning toward my point of view.

We also decided that because we're not having him circumcised at birth, we'll pay for our son's circumcision IF he decides later that he wants one, but only after he's come of age and is capable of understanding the ramifications of his decision. Perhaps this is something you can use in forming your argument.

That said, it sounds like your husband is genuinely interested in trying to make an informed decision, so I think he'll read any resources you provide. I can't add any more information than the other posters already have, but wanted to give my two cents with regard to your husband's current state of mind. I think it's great that he's willing to ask questions and try to sort things through as opposed to tossing out the old "I want him to look like me" argument and leaving it at that.

FYI: The main resources I provided when initially discussing this with my husband was the AAP statement to refute his idea that circumcision is beneficial to the baby's health in addition to describing the 5 seconds of the circ video I could actually stomach as well as reading him excerpts of the transcript for the video.
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Old 08-26-2006, 06:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by QuestionGal
Now, does anyone have any suggestions on HOW to get DH to actually do reasearch?
Yes, I do....cut him off .

I got my DH to get a colonoscopy that way. He kept postponing it and changing the appointment and "forgetting" and I knew that he really needed to go, trust me, it wasn't something he could skip. Once I cut him off it only took two weeks and he was like "Fine, fine I'll go" .

I can now honestly say that DH likes sex with me so much that he'd go through an anal probe to get it .

(I'm sure you'll get more serious answers from others, mine is only one option and was done in good humor between both of us. The only suggestion I have is to take it slow, don't rush him too much. This process may take months. For all you know he already is researching on his own. My DH researched on his own and I pretty much stayed out of it. I knew he was finding out some very unpleasant things and so I just stayed out of it unless he brought it up. We had already decided not to circumcise- it not being medically neccessary was really all that it took for him- but the other things regarding circumcision made him take a closer look and lemme tell ya....it was not pretty . Good luck.)
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