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Old 08-31-2006, 07:59 PM
 
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On my other AP/NL board, there are still many people who would argue that it is no big deal and that they don't have a penis so they let their DH choose... I think it is a such a crap argument.
This has come up before. Remind those dh that THEY don't have a foreskin-- so actually, they know less about intact genetalia than the mothers. This really does illustrate that the foreskin is totally being discounted-- mostly out of ignorance.

Stay strong and keep on top of the issue. Maybe time and your resolve will make an impact on your dh and he will start to open his mind.


Jessica

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Old 08-31-2006, 08:27 PM
 
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I cannot imagine a father doing something like that to his wife- OMG! I am just speechless. I mean- how can a husband/dad do that? Do they seriously think the mom would just not notice? Some ppl just don't THINK.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Yoshua
i dont advocate this, but since you asked.


At the delivery if you are adamant about making sure it doesnt happen you can tell the doctors you don't know who the father is, you don't consent to dna testing and you do NOT want a circumcision.



That pretty much leaves all the rights in your corner..... but you will have serious issues in your relationship.
Good advice if dh is still adamant. (And at that point, she'd have serious issues in her marriage, anyway, with dh still wanting to circ.)

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:15 PM
 
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I'm overjoyed w/ all the dedicated and logical responses to this predicament, and I'd like to add this:

MAKE HIM watch the British documentary "It's A Boy!". It's a FASCINATING and TRAGIC and terribly INFLUENTIAL documentary showcasing one birth throughout the other stories showcased (one being a British Jewish mom who refused to have her son put through a circumcising bris ceremony despite intense pressure, including guilt from her mother). Starting off with a British man marries a Jewish British woman and they have a son. She insists on a bris and because of complications of the circumcision, the poor boy died because of it! I found it truly heartbreaking to see and she refused to be a part of this documentary. The worst case scenario play out in real-life and THIS could be the fate you're sending your son to by circumcising!

I know you're not Jewish and I'm not stressing the religious part of this couple's tragedy... I'm accentuating that people think complications (botched circumcisions) "wouldn't happen to OUR son; it's always another poor boy" and I think it's RARE that circumcising parents ever consider death as being the worst case scenario. It's like they have tunnelvision, KWIM?

I think spending 1 hour watching this documentary could be extremely effective in changing his mind. And I don't want you to think of it as JUST a scare tactic into not circ'ing. Far from it. The other stories are those who have rejected circumcision for the best intersts of their sons.

Just a suggestion. I wish to heck I had saved it on tape when I taped it on TVO (TVOntario, our provincial public educational broadcaster) when it aired in the mid-'90s! I think I researched it online and it would cost $120 to obtain a copy of it.
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:42 PM
 
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I don't have any more advice than already given, but my DH wanted DS circed too. Mother's are the only ones that can sign consent forms for newborns in the hospital so it was no argument. I wasn't signing and there wasn't anything he could do about it.

I wish DH would have at least been open minded to listen to the reasons why I wanted DS whole. He wasn't interested. He also knows that if he did get DS circed, I would leave him and take DS with me.
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Old 09-02-2006, 01:55 PM
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I hope you are ok, mama.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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Old 09-02-2006, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So far there have been too many other things to do to actually finally discuss this.... but, i will be informing him this evening at the latest that we will NOT be going trough with it... in the most male sensitive way that i can.
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Old 09-02-2006, 04:53 PM
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Good luck and let us know how he takes the news. I'm so proud of you.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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Old 09-02-2006, 06:02 PM
 
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I have never understood how a man can choose to gentially mutilate his child based on FOUR years of his life, when the child isn't even old enough to live by himself.


If a person lives to be eighty, does anyone really think they will care about highschool when they are twenty, even. And when they are thirty, will decisions in their life be based on highschool events? And when they are getting married, will what they did in highschool matter? And when they are forty, will being naked in a locker room in highschool matter? And when they are fifty and the kids have moved away, will someone teasing them about their foreskin in highschool haunt their dreams at night? And when they are sixty and on a cruise, will the the memories of highschool ever even be thought about?

People are making the decision to cut their children, based on FOUR years of schooling, where you know what...YOU KID PROBABLY WON'T EVEN BE NAKED!!! Unless they are on the football team. My DH was never naked in gym class. In fact, I don't know anyone who was, and I have asked for research reasons!

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CIRCUMCISION

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Old 09-03-2006, 02:04 AM
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Sending you blessings and love during this difficult time.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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Old 09-04-2006, 08:06 AM
 
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How's it going, Jenny?

DH and I actually went to marriage conselling over this issue when I was pregnant with DS1. It didn't help us at all, in the end I just had to put my foot down and refuse to discuss it any more. I promised him that if he tried to do it behind my back I would leave him.

That was three intact sons ago ....

Good luck, Mama.

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Old 09-04-2006, 11:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zzwhitejd
nathan, you are absolutely right - He's very good at debate. I'm dyslexic and am not good at the spur of the moment things and recalling information when I need it most. He loves to corner people in arguments, it's about winning. He also feels that once you get emotional, you have lost control and have lost the argument.... this is COMPLETELY emotional for me - as I feel it should be.

I posted it so that someone reading might get a better understanding of his mindset and the way he deals with information.
I would get away from the pain angle and just tell him that since there is nothing wrong with your son or his foreskin, then there will be no surgery. He needs to prove why his son "needs" this surgery, not why he "wants" it. Ask him why he feels he has the right to modify his son's perfect genitals. How would he feel if you wanted to do the same for your daughter without medical indication? It's not his right. He doesn't know hwat 'style" genitals his son will want whenhe is a man, so he should leave that for his son (the man) to decide. When we have babies, it's hard to imagine that they will grow up, but they will, and they will have opinions about the decisions you've made form them.
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Old 09-04-2006, 12:16 PM
 
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I am coming to this late, and I am not sure what religion (if any) you are a part of, but- I thought I read you mention above that he knows it's not medically indicated, so religious discussion might have some impact. If so- I would point out, that God does NOT make all infant boys in need of immediate surgical correction, and that it is an insult to Him to imply that He did something wrong in making them.

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
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Old 09-04-2006, 12:29 PM
 
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i'm living in asheville nc right now, but i'm originally from michigan where the mother has the first legal rights to their babies. for example, if you take your kid to the doctor and they write a perscription---whether you give it to your kid or not, you still have to get it filled or the MOTHER gets in trouble.... i'm not sure about nc though. the doctor never asked my husband about circing, only me....
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Old 09-08-2006, 01:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamaofthreecats
i'm living in asheville nc right now, but i'm originally from michigan where the mother has the first legal rights to their babies. for example, if you take your kid to the doctor and they write a perscription---whether you give it to your kid or not, you still have to get it filled or the MOTHER gets in trouble.... i'm not sure about nc though. the doctor never asked my husband about circing, only me....
You HAVE to fill it?!?!? How absurd! NC is not like that at all.... I live in Charlotte.

Well, we never did discuss it, but my mind is as clear as can be, and I will not be permitting it, period. And the discussion will be short since I am the default position, leaving him alone. Thank you to all who have given me the conviction to back up my instinct and knowledge!
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Old 09-08-2006, 01:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Quirky
Mama, I think you're actually ahead of the game, and here's why:

Your dh recognizes that circumcision is no more than COSMETIC surgery. Don't let him weasel out of that statement - start with, "I'm glad you agree with the world's most prestigious medical associations that there is no medical or hygienic reason for circumcision, and that it is non-therapeutic (cosmetic) surgery."

Then tell him that you are not consenting to cosmetic surgery on your newborn for any reason. End of story. The only person who has the right to consent to cosmetic surgery is the person who will undergo the surgery.

If your dh makes you all flustered and tries to beat you down verbally -- which is verbal and emotional abuse, IMO -- then just stop arguing and be a solid wall that he can't get a fingerhold on. Just repeat, over and over, "I am not consenting to cosmetic surgery on my son." Don't let him make you defensive - you are in the right, and you don't have to justify it to him. Just stop arguing -- take your wind out of his sails -- but let him know the consequences of him taking your ds behind your back to be circed, i.e. that the marriage will be over if he disrespects you and your ds that much.

mom to 3 home-born children, wife to a great guy joy.gif

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Old 09-08-2006, 01:58 AM
 
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After reading all the posts my take is that your DH wants to circ because your son MIGHT be teased one day.

Yes, he might be teased but tell your Dh that this WILL break your heart. No question about it and that you will never forgive it. Is possible teasing worth a broken family to him.
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Old 09-08-2006, 08:35 PM
 
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For 10 years DH and I have been at an impasse on the issue. No matter what I asked, or pointed out he would not budge,
Up to this point we had no sons to finish the issue with, until Sunday Sept 3rd I gave birth (at home unassisted) to an 8 lb baby boy.

On day 2 following birth, dh was anxious to get jr. to the doc, and I assumed I had lost the battle and he was taking him to be cut, Imagine my delighted surprise when I asked he said, no he just wanted baby to get a good once over by a doc to assure us all was well.:

I CRIED! I was SO SURE this was always going to be an issue, and I almost fainted when he said that it was not worth me being upset, and he would live with his son looking different!

WHOO HOO! Count this as a MAJOR victory folks! THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart, I am sure this post (which I forwarded on to him to read) was the deciding factor.
Wandering Nomad mamma to 5 blessed angels!
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Old 09-09-2006, 01:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zzwhitejd
Oh, and I am homebirthing. There is no hospital involved, thank the good Lord.

Thank you for the lawyers number. I will wait until next Monday to call him if just knowing I have his info doesn't scare DH enough to back down. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

Since you're homebirthing, how about choosing an intact friendly pedi... So there won't be a chance in He11 that it'll hapen in his/her office when you take the baby in...
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Old 09-09-2006, 03:29 AM
 
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WHOO HOO! Count this as a MAJOR victory folks! THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart, I am sure this post (which I forwarded on to him to read) was the deciding factor.
Wandering Nomad mamma to 5 blessed angels!
That is Wonderful

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Old 09-09-2006, 06:59 AM
 
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That's funny that he thinks this is aimed at women....I'm a properly educated voice on the subject (being an intact male) and absolutely see this from the intact point of view. I guess I'm sort of like him in the sense that I can't imagine being without this, while he can't possibly imagine what he's missing without this. I'll never know his side (thankfully) and he'll never know my side (unfortunately) for if he DID know what I know and feel what I feel, he wouldn't be so unfazed by the removal of THE most single-handedly WONDERFUL part of the very thing he thinks with 89% of any given day. I can't friggin' get enough of it!

As to the person posting this: I'm in Illinois, and I believe there is a law against it. I know when we were going through all the motions (naming, signing no-circ papers) EVEN THOUGH I was signing the birth certificate, I had absolutely NO RIGHTS to even NAME the child. We were told only the mother is able to legally sign for the name, and if she wanted to name (our son) Brad Pitt, SHE may do so. It didn't matter one iota what I wanted his name to be, so I imagine it's the same thing with relation to any procedure or likes of that....

We don't really get any sort of decision making in the deal, it's left up to the mothers. But you should check out SPECIFICALLY what rights you have under law of whatever area you're in. It varies state-by-state I imagine. Check it just so you know.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zzwhitejd
I read that very article this afternoon...

In violition of my poor husband... this was his email response to an article I sent him via email about how some mothers responded... (at http://www.circumcision.org/mothers.htm)



Reading that made me want to reply to his email "Barf."
Instead I replied "I will remind you; with Dorothy we were correcting a birth defect. With circumcision, you are cutting off a normal functioning portion of the body. There is no comparison there."

(For more on my daughter's polydactily genetic 'birth defect', see my blog: http://jenraymond.blogspot.com/2006/...bbed-toes.html & http://jenraymond.blogspot.com/2006/...looked-at.html)
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Old 09-10-2006, 06:02 PM
 
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Good for you for staying so strong! Dh wanted ds2 circed, and even called to schedule an appointment (we had a homebirth). I told him that if he even attempted to take him out of the house I was leaving. Period. He cancelled the appointment.

Dh was upset about leaving ds2 intact for quite awhile, it was never a marriage issue, but it upset him. Then, one day, he read some intactivist articles (that were left in the bathroom.....) and the light-bulb finally went off in his head, and he told me that after reading all the stuff, he felt so good about leaving ds2 intact........now he's an intactivist!

I think that men receive information better if they do it on their own (or think they do, lol), and can also get that information from others...

I know it helped that our midwife and pedi were very against circing; hopefully this will be your case as well.

"Have faith in yourself and in the direction you have chosen." Ralph Marston

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Old 02-25-2007, 02:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, I am sorry to leave you all for so long without an update! My labor started before this was finally hashed out. But, I seem to like Prodromal labors and this one was no different... it stalled 2 days while we finished this out. On Saturday Oct the 28th John and I had a very abstract conversation where I knew what he was getting at but was on the surface about something else. A few minutes later after a lull he asked, "So, what have you decided about circumcision?" I said, with tears, "I just can't." He told me he didn't want to see me right then, so I went shopping with my mom for a present for my eldest from the baby. He spent the faternoon thinking about the logistics of our divorce. The next morning he was a good bit better... while in the shower getting ready for church he had the tought that if he got a 'hummer' a week that he would be okay. I figure it was a great trade! He has later nixed the deal since he doesn't want something based on obligation, but that is another story altogether. I knew Sunday morning that Jack was on his way, and when we walked into church and someone asked when the baby was coming, I told them "today". Sure enough, labor started when we got home that aftenoon. Jack was born the next day at 5:19pm. At very nearly 4 months old, he is still intact and will remain so, is over 16lbs and my marriage is still standing.
Thank you for all of the support that I have recieved. You have all helped me with the struggle. DH still isn't thrilled, and really hated changing dipes for awhile, but it doesn't seem to surface bother him now.
John's largest issue with my saying 'no' was that it was choosing my son over my husband. He still sees it like that. I really do not. I am a mother and a wife, I love my husband very much... but I can not seperate out the mother FROM the wife, I am both an have to be true to both. If I had 'chosen' my DH, I would have fallen apart and my marriage would certainly have been shortly behind. I made a decision for both. I just wish he could see that. Maybe one day he will.

Bottom line: Jack's intact!!!!
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Old 02-25-2007, 03:08 AM
 
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Yay!
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Old 02-25-2007, 03:20 AM
 
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i live for updates like yours :

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

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Old 02-25-2007, 04:22 AM
 
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What wonderful news! Great job, mama Hopefully your dh will come around more eventually too...

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:23 AM
 
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You rock!!! I love happy updates

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Old 02-25-2007, 11:29 AM
 
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Oh my goodness! I was thinking of you just yesterday morning and wondering how things went and couldn't remember your site name to look you up! Talk about ESP!

So happy for you and Jack!

SAHM to Ivan 6/10/05 who says  signcirc1.gifand Matilda 1/31/08 who says saynovax.gif:::

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Old 02-25-2007, 01:30 PM
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You rock!!! I love happy updates

:

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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Old 02-25-2007, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh my goodness! I was thinking of you just yesterday morning and wondering how things went and couldn't remember your site name to look you up! Talk about ESP!

So happy for you and Jack!
How funny!!! We are doing GREAT!
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