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#1 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OK, so I am prepared to get beat up right now:

I have ventured out to other sites: and have noticed that some intactavists come across VERY harsh. Specifically, I was on ivillage yesterday and some mom to be was trying to decide about RIC and was asking if someone could tell her when the surgery was normally done, the first day, thre next day, 8 days...

The first response she received was from a supporter of circ who warned this woman that if she posted here she would be eaten alive by intactavist. Well, I hate to agree, but she was.

Out of all the posts 2 people answered her question!! Everyone else else gave these LONG posts with stats and pictures and .

This poor women....she asked a question and basically had text books thrown at her!! Somewhere the message got lost. It felt like she was being overpowered and bombarded. I felt awful for her.

I felt embarrassed that this was the woman's experience with a group that I associate with

any feedback??
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#2 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 03:52 PM
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Sometimes we have to shock people out of their paradigm.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#3 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 03:53 PM
 
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I doubt she feels worse than the baby will as he is strapped to a board and has part of his body ripped and cut off.

I hate to sound harsh, but seriously especially online, you don't know if you will ever encounter that person again and you gotta get the information out there. It may be overwhelming, but you can't really sit there and wait to see if anyone else puts information up. So I guess sometimes it can be an avalanche of information. But I'd rather that than no one say anything at all!
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#4 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 04:03 PM
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_cop/bad_cop


I have seen this work, obviously with appropriate variations, and usually is quite successful in engaging people who would otherwise simply stop reading and go on their blissfully ignorant way.

It is a good thing to have that good cop element there though, I feel, to balance things out. We have quite a few amazing good cops right here on MDC, and I know I ask them to jump in here and there quite frequently, and bless them, they always do!



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#5 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 04:06 PM
 
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I've thought a lot about this in the past, and to some extent I agree: If we come across in a harsh or fanatical manner, it is easier for some of these parents/parents-to-be to discount our message entirely, which undermines the purpose of our entire movement. While I have at times been guilty of it myself, I think we should be wary of ganging up on people in that way...because in order to convince them, we need to get them to open up and tell us what there reasoning is, so we can respond to it with gentle-but firm-truths. When people feel attacked, the knee-jerk reaction is to put up all of their defenses, plant their fingers in their ears, and respond with comments like, "My child, my choice!" Once the wall goes up, it's much harder-if not impossible-to break through.

Jen
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#6 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 05:03 PM
 
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I can see the validity of the point the OP is making. I just wonder if a board titled "The Case Against Circumcision" is a great place to ask questions about the choice to circumcise. It's not called "Circumcision Information" or "Pros and Cons about Circumcision." It's hard to believe people get surprised that we're actively and vocally against circumcision.

Why exactly did the woman come here? To find out the best day to circumcise? I mean, if she came here looking for answers because she wasn't sure whether she was going to circumcise or not, ok. But to find the best day? It goes against everything we believe in.

Take care,

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#7 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 05:08 PM
 
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Andie -


I think in the OP, she was saying that occured on an iVillage board, not on MDC.



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#8 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 05:42 PM
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And FYI: It's against the UA to talk about what goes on on other boards...especially going so far as to name it..

*no I'm not a granola ambassador, I've just had threads deleted and mods asking me not to do it again for doing the same thing..*
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#9 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 05:48 PM
 
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I think mothers need to know just how wrong it is to circumcise their babies. No matter how harsh we have to be.
It's child sexual abuse, genital mutilation and it's WRONG and they need to be informed.
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#10 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:00 PM
 
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There's power when you can ascertain the "listening" of the other person and speak into that. I think the OP has a good point AND I don't think we're ever going to develop a nice rule that covers all situations. It's a tenuous balance between saying enough and not saying too much. Is it possible for circumcision to end with joy and courtesy? Your mission, should you accept it, is to find that way of being.
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#11 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:08 PM
 
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No parent circumcises out of a desire to cause pain/life-long harm to their child. They honestly love their kids and they usually mean well. Most don't know enough to make a truly informed choice, so I think of my goal as: How do I get this information to them? How can I phrase things gently and respectfully, so they listen, open up, and share their reasoning?

IMO, intactivism isn't about being right, it's about being effective. From personal experience interacting with parents-mostly online-I don't think attacking/alienating parents generally yields good results.

I guess my philosophy kinda goes back to, "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinager.", KWIM? Often times it means biting my tongue!

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Originally Posted by baybee
Your mission, should you accept it, is to find that way of being.


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#12 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:09 PM
 
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Ohhhh - sorry. I thought she meant that someone told her on a different board if she came here (meaning CAC) she'd get rude replies, but she came here anyway. I didn't get it. Like, that the convo started on another board, but that the person came here for more information/opinions, etc.,.

Oh. Well, ignore my post, it makes no sense.

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#13 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telle Bear
OK, so I am prepared to get beat up right now:
I'll try not to beat you up too much, but the more I think about your title, the more irked I get. Even the most vocal, tactless, in-your-face chew-'em-up-and-spit-'em-out intactivist has my admiration a million times more than the most meek and mild circ'er. Hell ya' I'm proud. Loud and proud.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#14 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telle Bear
she asked a question and basically had text books thrown at her!!


Oooh.....can we really throw things? That would help with a lot of the angst I feel at people who circ.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#15 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A
I'll try not to beat you up too much, but the more I think about your title, the more irked I get. Even the most vocal, tactless, in-your-face chew-'em-up-and-spit-'em-out intactivist has my admiration a million times more than the most meek and mild circ'er. Hell ya' I'm proud. Loud and proud.


ITA, I will never be ashamed to stand up for the human rights and genital integrity of children...no matter how much I may disagree with the styles/tactics of some individuals who share my beliefs.

Jen
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#16 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture

I guess my philosophy kinda goes back to, "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinager.", KWIM?
You seem like such a sweetheart; I can't imagine you truly getting angry at anyone.

But, and this comment isn't really to you, but to the topic at hand in general, I get so tired of the basic statement of, "Oh those darn intactivists made me circ my son because they were so mean to me." As I've said before when this topic has come up, they were going to circ anyway and we just became the scapegoat.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#17 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaftigmama
I can see the validity of the point the OP is making. I just wonder if a board titled "The Case Against Circumcision" is a great place to ask questions about the choice to circumcise. It's not called "Circumcision Information" or "Pros and Cons about Circumcision." It's hard to believe people get surprised that we're actively and vocally against circumcision.

Why exactly did the woman come here? To find out the best day to circumcise? I mean, if she came here looking for answers because she wasn't sure whether she was going to circumcise or not, ok. But to find the best day? It goes against everything we believe in.

Take care,
: Anyone who can read can see that this is the case AGAINST circumcision. It is absurd of her to come here for circ timing advise.

I am proud to be an intactivist. I scream it from the rooftops!

Oh cry me a river if she did not get good advise on which day is ideal to mutilate her baby. Boo Hoo Hoo :

SAHM to Ivan 6/10/05 who says  signcirc1.gifand Matilda 1/31/08 who says saynovax.gif:::

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#18 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A
I get so tired of the basic statement of, "Oh those darn intactivists made me circ my son because they were so mean to me." As I've said before when this topic has come up, they were going to circ anyway and we just became the scapegoat.
I completely agree; not only is it a rediculous excuse, I honestly think the primary intent of a pro-circer saying such a thing is pure manipulation. Ie, "I don't like what you said or how you said it, so I'm going to claim I'm cutting my son just to SPITE you. HA! That'll teach em'! Neener neener neener...it's legal, you can't stop me." I think some of them think that they're really teaching us a lesson and that saying they're circing because an intactivist p*ssed them off will discourage further intactivism. Fortunately, most of us can see right throught that crap.

Sadly, I've heard this 'justification' from circing parents more than a few times.

Jen
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#19 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:37 PM
 
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I truely understand what you are talking about. and it isn't just circumcision. it is everything really. Its a balancing act to passionately get your message across without crossing the line that cause someone to shut down and think we are all lunatics and extremist who can't be taken seriously.
In this case ai would have answered her question first. told her when it was done usually, what the advantages are to waiting, how it reduces some of the risk (specifically, which gives one a chance to harp on the risks )and makes pain relief safer. then i would have asked her some questions about why she was considering and wht she thought the cons were and asked her if she had any questions. iwould have acknowledged that this is a big descision etc. . .this wuld open a conversation and help her feel safe discussion it and asking questions. when we go in shouting, calling people idiots and child abusers, and not hearing them it doesn't leave much room for a conversation. and once the chance for a conversation is gone that person will most likely shut down to what we are saying and write us off as wackos.

it is hard to hold back and gently nudge a person to openess. but when you wait until someone is listening and speak confidently and calmly it goes so much further than someone shouting at deaf ears.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#20 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka
In this case ai would have answered her question first. told her when it was done usually, what the advantages are to waiting, how it reduces some of the risk (specifically, which gives one a chance to harp on the risks )and makes pain relief safer. then i would have asked her some questions about why she was considering and wht she thought the cons were and asked her if she had any questions. iwould have acknowledged that this is a big descision etc. . .this wuld open a conversation and help her feel safe discussion it and asking questions.


I like that approach.

Another one I thought of would be to say something like,

"When I was looking into circumcision, I remember reading that it's either done in the hospital a day or two after birth, or at a clinic within a few weeks of birth. Jews generally circumcise on the 8th day. Anesthetics are available, but none are completely effective.

I spent a lot of time researching it when I was pregnant with -----, and we ultimately decided not to have it done after learning that it's not necessary and isn't recommended anymore. I had no idea that the foreskin was sensitive and had so many functions.

If you're interested in reading more, I can PM you the links I found most helpful while we were making our decision.

Best wishes."

Jen
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#21 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coloradoalice
I doubt she feels worse than the baby will as he is strapped to a board and has part of his body ripped and cut off.

I hate to sound harsh, but seriously especially online, you don't know if you will ever encounter that person again and you gotta get the information out there. It may be overwhelming, but you can't really sit there and wait to see if anyone else puts information up. So I guess sometimes it can be an avalanche of information. But I'd rather that than no one say anything at all!
I could NOT disagree anymore....We are basically BEATING these people away from us...
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#22 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 06:55 PM
 
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For me personally, I WISH I had someone tell me the truth about circumcision. Even if she wasn't asking about weather or not to do it, maybe she didn't know all about it yet.

Christy wash.gif Mom to DS 4/21/04 reading.gif DD 9/20/09  dust.gif DD 7/2/11jog.gif

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#23 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 07:30 PM
 
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Perhaps your title should have read,"feeling unhappy about the conduct of some anti-circ people"

I would never suggest that I was not proud to be anti-circ. Ever. There is a BIG difference between being unhappy about a few people's conduct within our circles and feeling ashamed of a whole human right's movement. Your post conveys the latter.

There's all different types of Intactivists...just because you don't agree with different styles doesn't mean that you should not be proud to be fighting to end forced infant genital cutting.
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#24 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 07:53 PM
 
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I saw the post too and believe me 'some people don't want to have lots of 'reading material ' smack dab into their face especially like my mom oh I had printed off intact care because she was the only one who retracted my son when i noticed at when he was 9 n half wks old.

She's the type of 'denying if it's wrong thing and I show her wrong then she will go why you showing me I didn't do that. Never read the information.

Same as when it comes to 'nutrition' she was worried that my son wasn't eating alot saying it's proably my nursing doing that to him. Anyways, I got together with a dietican she brough me at least 6 pages of the nurtition guide for a toddler - I showed my mom she didn't even look at them & is still whining about how my son 'barely eats" & if she read the pages she would know it's totally normal especially for this age.

I do agree that people would be mighty harsh I also seen you newly on CM board too.

I agree with the honey & vinegar statement but sometimes it can be a very sticky situation is because you want to be 'honest' but not too forceful.

I saw on the other site how one 'intactivist ' was getting attacked by some pro-circers believing a foreskin caused a kidney infection .

You could likely want to really at least yell at that statement forcefully as stating proably want to use the word 'dumb', stupid ,idiotic etc but instead you could assume the kid was proably retracted or had an urinary issues and maybe ask them 'after researching kidney infections can you show me where the 'foreskin state the cause of etc etc because I looked and I couldn't find any etc.
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#25 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora114
And FYI: It's against the UA to talk about what goes on on other boards...especially going so far as to name it..

*no I'm not a granola ambassador, I've just had threads deleted and mods asking me not to do it again for doing the same thing..*
Sorry I didn't know that....I was not intentionally breaking the rules....(althought sometimes breaking the rules is fun)
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#26 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, I find it very interested that some of you are upset with my wording of this thread. I hate to say this, but it proves my whole point !!

Things can be said without offending or upsetting people!!
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#27 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 10:31 PM
 
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For what it's worth, I wasn't really "offended", I just disagree with not being proud to be an intactivist just because I don't agree with the style/tactics of some. Honestly, when I first learned about circumcision, I was VERY harsh on messageboards. I was outraged. I was venting. I was telling it like it was! All of that was fine and nice, but I was alienating the very parents who I wanted to reach. I've come a long way in my own personal evolution, and I accept that we all learn and grow at different rates and have different personalities that come through in our posts. So, I definately see your point even though I disagree with not being proud to be an intactivist. I do understand feeling embarassed on occasion because of how someone on your side of the fence is acting though.

Jen
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#28 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 10:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Telle Bear: Well, I find it very interested that some of you are upset with my wording of this thread. I hate to say this, but it proves my whole point !!
What? Are you saying that you delibertly tried to post in an offensive way? Or was that accidental? What did you proove exactly? That you as an Intactivist, know how to post in an inflamatory way too? That you know how to upset people? I am really confused.

Quote:
Telle Bear: Things can be said without offending or upsetting people!!
Sure. Are you saying that you realize that you should have posted in a different way or that we should not be upset at the way you posted? Again, I am very confused and I am not sure what either prooves.
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#29 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 11:03 PM
 
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It is very hard for me (meek and mild and non-confrontational) to hold back on message boards. I usually just Yeah that to previous posts.
I just don't want to offend someone and beat them away.
I am already known as militant to my family and friends.
IRL - I get so upset irl I start shaking and my voice falters because I am so AGAINST IT it upsets me to the core that someone would even think about doing it. Thats why printouts are the way to go for me
Unfortunetly, everyone has circ'ed that I know of
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#30 of 30 Old 09-02-2006, 11:10 PM
 
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It is against the User Agreement to discuss other internet discussions. I am closing this thread until I can review it.

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