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#31 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 05:34 PM
 
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I agree, if you haven't seen a video, you should watch one. Or, since you don't want to circ anyway, have your dh watch it.
Please bear in mind that they are very graphic and hard to watch, especially while pregnant. I made the mistake of watching a video when I was pregnant with DS, and I made it as far as the first terrible scream that baby let out, and I ran to the bathroom and vomited. I had nightmares about it after that.
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#32 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 05:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chinaKat View Post
Like I said, I'm not convinced it's necessary and I'm not wanting to do it, but I know plenty of people (including lots of Jews, if I can bring that into the mix) that don't have a problem with it -- and these are all kind, caring, awesome AP parents.
I get where you're coming from--the most GD AP moms I know are Jewish--but we aren't allowed to discuss religious circ. at MDC. Hopefully, I can say that I've never heard a Jew promote circ for non-Jews, so if you aren't Jewish, the whole thing should be irrelevent.
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#33 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 05:35 PM
 
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I know a lot of circ'd men think it's "fine", but they really wouldn't know any different. I had a botched circ and re-circ; I know it's not "fine." True, we are probably the exception rather than the rule, but what would a parent say to their child if they're one of the unlucky ones? That they rolled the dice with their genitals for something that was completely unnecessary?
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#34 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 05:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bm31 View Post
what would a parent say to their child if they're one of the unlucky ones? That they rolled the dice with their genitals for something that was completely unnecessary?
Succinct, and dead on.
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#35 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 05:37 PM
 
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Hah! That's a great way of putting it... I may need to rephrase slightly for DH, though.
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend any approach suggesting that his penis isn't up to par. Start gently and don't bring out the vinegar unless the honey fails to work. There's an article in one of the stickies about the vulnerability of men. Something for you to read and think about how guys have trouble dealing with the issue, kwim?

I wasn't familiar with the deaf community issue, but I think that's wrong too. We can be content with our own physical shortcomings or anomalies or what have you, and still want better for our children. DH and I both have autoimmune problems and he has a limp and I wear glasses. No biggies, we get through life without much angst or bitterness on that score, but I surely don't want my babies to deal with any of that if I can prevent it (and hopefully bf'ing makes the difference there ).

I'm sure most of what I'd be inclined to say has already been said a dozen times since I started this.

Oh, here's that article btw.: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html
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#36 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 05:41 PM
 
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There are so many ways to approach this topic. What information do you need? What would your dh be receptive to?

Your dh doesn't have a foreskin or an intact penis so the point is that he really doesn't know what it is like to be intact either- even though he does have a penis.

But is that really the issue? There are so many ways to think about it:

Does he know it is not medically necessary?
Does he have concerns about the procedure and the usual lack of pain relief?
Do you want to breastfeed? If so, are you aware that circumcision can interrupt the establishment of breastfeeding?
Whose right is it to make this decision? Yours? His? Your doctor? Your sons?
What are the functions of the foreskin?
Why would boys be born with a foreskin, only to need it removed?
Does your dh realize that 85% of men in the world are intact and that most other cultures consider us strange (the US) and perhaps even barbaric?
Do you realize there are different methods of circumcision and different styles (doctors circumcised differently)-- are you prepared to weigh a list of pro's con's, select a method and choose the style (ie, how it will look) for your son's penis? Most parents don't want to think about that, but then if it looks different than dh or different then expected they are upset (and some re-circ).
Do you understand that the risks of intactness are extrememly low and you can actually compare them to the risks of complications of circumcision?
Can you watch a video to inform your self about the procedure.
Does everyone around you really care-- I mean, you say they all choose circumcision, but are they going to care that you leave your son intact?
If they ARE AP, I'd expect they wouldn't really think it was a big deal.

HAve you heard the opinion of your doctor/midwife/pedi? What did they say.

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He's glad that he's circ'd, and wants the same for our child if we have a boy
Medical opinions have changed since your dh was circed. I'll assume we can compare somewhat even if off by a decade or so... Let's see, my father was not allowed to see me for the first 4 weeks (I was a premie), he was not allowed in the delivery room. My mom was not supported trying to breastfeed- formula was still considered fine. I had several treatments that are outdated now.

Just because these things happened to us when we were born doesn't mean that we need to insist they happen to our children.

As wishy washy as the AAP statement is, it does state that circumcision is medically unnecessary.

If not for medical reasons... WHY is you dh insisting?

Hope that helps and thank you for considering, questioning, and learning!

Jessica

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#37 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That article was AWESOME! It addressed my situation precisely. Thanks!!!
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#38 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 05:54 PM
 
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chinaKat I want to thank you for coming here and researching I see you have already gotten tons of information I just want to add some if I may. It is gonna be kinda long but all of it is important to read. And please watch the circ video linked to here or at least read the transcript from it. And if you can get your dh to as well.

Reasons to leave your son intact:

- The owner of the penis should be the one to decide what to do with it.

-The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

- The movable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

- The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

- An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto it shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

- The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or “glans” of the penis for the life of its owner. The glans or the head of the penis was never meant to be a external organ it should be inside the foreskin to protect it and keep it sensitive.

- 80-85% of the world’s male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America). Circumcision does NOT prevent AIDS wearing a condom does.

- When people from non circumcising countries hear that we in the USA still do it they are usually shocked, and often don't believe it to be true.

- Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, you just wash it like a finger, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child. The age it becomes retractable varies greatly normal range is childhood to adulthood.

- The foreskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.

- Male circumcision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

- The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 56% today.

- No medical organization anywhere recommends routine infant circ.
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

- Circumcision is EXTREMELY painful, even if anesthetic is administered. Studies have proved that babies feel pain even more acutely than an adult would. It is a very great breech of trust for a baby to be taken from his parents and cut. It is very violating. Long after any anesthesia that might(most only get a sugar dipped rag or paci to suck on) have been used wears off there is still a raw open wound sitting in urine and feces with no pain relief.

- The intact penis, if left alone, has no greater risk for UTI's, STD's, Penile Cancer, HIV, causing Cervical Cancer in women.
UTI myth http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php
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In fact, UTI's are so rare in any case that, using Wiswell's data, 50 to 100 healthy boys would have to be circumcised in order to prevent a UTI from developing in only one patient. (Using more recent data from a better-controlled study, the number of unnecessary operations needed to prevent one hospital admission for UTI would jump to 195.
Cancer Society:http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp
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In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/
Quote:
Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis.8
Boczko et al . found numerous reports of penile cancer in circumcised men, thus conclusively disproving Wolbarst's false claims of protection from penile cancer by circumcision.9
In "Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy," Edward Wallerstein writes14: "If infant circumcision reduces penile cancer we could expect to see proportionately less penile cancer in circumcising nations as compared to non-circumcising ones. No such difference is found."
Quote:
******* established quite clearly that there was little evidence to support a relationship between lack of circumcision and penile cancer, cervical cancer, or cancer of the prostate in 1970 but he was unable to identify the causative agent at that time,6 while Leitch did the same in Australia.
Circumcision and AIDS/HIV http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003362.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

- The times the intact penis has trouble are when it is forcefully retracted before it is ready. The penis should only be retracted by its owner, when he’s ready. It is normal to not be retractable until after puberty. It is not a problem.

- Circumcision is SURGERY and as such poses significant risks of infection to the wound.
Possible complications include but are not limited to:
infections;
botched circumcisions that have to be redone;
to tight circumcisions that cause extreme pain with erection;
hair on the shaft;
loss of sensation in the glans (head), it becomes keratinized (hardened) without the foreskin;
amputation of the glans;
amputation of the entire penis;
ruptured stomach from crying so hard;
ruptured bladder from crying so hard;
ruptured intestines from crying so much;
DEATH
and much much more.

None of these side effects are present when just leaving a boy intact.

- Girls have a much greater risk of UTIs, yet we wouldn't cut off their clitoris or labia to prevent them.


- Circumcisions was originally introduced in the country in the late 1800s to prevent masturbation. It has since been touted as the cure for all sorts of ailments - none of which are scientifically provable are even remotely true.

- Cutting off the foreskin cuts off the most sensitive, erotic, pleasurable part of a man’s body. The foreskin plays a very important role in sex. Men who were circumcised later in life compare circed sex/intact sex to black and white TV and plasma TV. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

- There are NO medical benefits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such more insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

- When the foreskin is removed 30-50% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Because 30-50% of the total penile skin is removed during a RIC depending on the Dr. and the type of circumcision that is done.

- 80% of the world’s circumcised men in the world are in the US. 80% of the world’s Viagra sales are in the US. Coincidence?

- Circumcision is big business in the US. Several billions of dollars every year. Doctors are very invested in keeping the circumcision myths alive.

- A single doctor can make $20,000 a year doing circumcisions.

- A little known fact is that foreskins are then resold to the highest bidder. They are used in cosmetics, skin growth for grafting, cancer treatments and much more. The after life of foreskins is also a multi billion dollar a year industry. Parents are not told about this. There is no informed consent. Certainly the foreskins owner doesn’t have a say in the matter.

- “Every boy born in the US has a $300 coupon attached to his foreskin. All you have to do is cut it off to redeem.”

- Circumcision should only be performed on consenting adults who know all that is entailed.

- What if your son wants his foreskin?

- A lot of men are very angry when they find out the truth and feel very violated. (like my husband.)

- How would you feel if someone cut off your clitoris and labia without asking you? They do it in Africa all the time. We are horrified when little girls are mutilated. Why not when little boys?

- It causes immense trauma & physical pain to a brand new baby who just had to undergo birth. Often times a baby will suddenly cease crying and so the Doctors say it doesn't hurt them. It does - they are in shock.

- Circumcision is almost NEVER medically necessary. The only true medical reasons for circ are, frostbite, gangrene and cancer (all of those would be extremely rare) The incidence for necessary medical circumcisions is less that 0.05%.

- Smegma isn’t bad or gross. It is the Greek word for soap. Women have it too. It helps keep everything clean and healthy. No intact boy should be forcefully retracted just to clean it out. It’s supposed to be there!

- When they separate the foreskin from the glans it is similar to ripping off your fingernails. Than they crush the foreskin and cut it off - most often with NO pain relief. They also stimulate an erection so they “know where to cut.” A boys first sexual experience is one of great pain and trauma.

Common myths you may hear from others and even Dr's:

http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php

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#39 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 06:03 PM
 
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OK, so can we talk percentages here? How common *are* these sort of problems? Do men consider them (preventable as they may be) as sort of a general inconvenience of being male (like a woman might see a yeast infection or a UTI)? Or are these things considered more "serious".

I know that, for most men, their penises are VERY important to them. You'd think they'd talk about this stuff! But, while I'd wager that most guys have heard of a yeast infection, I'm not sure I've ever heard about adhesions or other circ problems.
Most scientific literature estimates the US circumcision complication rate at 2-10%. Usually 1-2% are the acute complications, like bleeding, infection, or adhesions serious enough to require additional surgery. Later complications are harder to quantify unless they lead the patient or parents to see the doctor again (like meatal stenosis). There are probably many men out there who never see the doctor about their complications, leading to underestimation. In areas where everyone is circumcised, a lot of men don't connect issues like tight skin, skin bridges/adhesions, bent penis, etc. with being circumcised. It's obviously not that they are stupid or don't notice, but more that they figure it's just how their penis is. All circumcised men have a scar, but I can honestly say I never thought about it for most of my life until considering circumcision when pregnant with son #1 two years ago.

You'd be surprised at how many people on this board are married to circumcised husbands (or are circumcised men themselves) but have uncircumcised sons. Circumcision is one of those things that seems really normal if you live in a time and place where everyone used to have it done (like me in Ohio born in the 1970s). When you step back and consider it in the whole scheme of what others in the world do and ask yourself why we in the US are the only ones who have no qualms about automatically doing a very personal surgery to infant boys, it becomes a really bizarre idea.

Since leaving my son (and now two) intact, being intact does not seem unusual at all. I find more and more people all the time who feel similarly.

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#40 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 06:13 PM
 
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Basically, every single person in my life thinks circ'ing is fine. Everybody at MDC thinks it's barbaric. So, you can understand why I'm getting mixed messages on the process. I'm just trying to sort that out.
The world looks very different from the other side of the Atlantic: everyone around me is intact and thinks circumcision is barbaric. Most people here have no clue that Americans do "THAT!?" and are perfectly horrified when they find out.

Although I'm Venezuelan, I ended up in Germany (DH is German) after living in the US for a long time. You never know where your son's life will take him. A circumcised guy in Europe is the odd one out. What if he ends up living here?

If circumcision is not necessary for Europeans, well it's also not necessary for Americans. Why damage your son's perfect body? Because yes, even in the best "no-complication" case, circumcision IS damage.

I wish you the best on your pregnancy. It's very tough what you're about to embark on. It's wonderful that you've chosen to question circumcision and educate yourself on the topic before it's too late for your baby. We're here for you no matter how many questions you have or how difficult the discussion with your DH becomes: to support you as well as give you all the ammunition you may need.

You've read the vulnerability of men article. Now watch a circumcision video (I never have been able to, I admit, but I would not force my son to experience something I can not even watch), but, most importantly, make sure your DH watches it.
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#41 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 06:19 PM
 
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Hah! That's a great way of putting it... I may need to rephrase slightly for DH, though.
There is a great article you might want to read that discusses this from a circumcised man's perspective, before you talk to your DH.

The Vulnerability of Men


ETA:Nevermind...I just finished the thread and somebody already gave it to you.

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#42 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 06:21 PM
 
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Ok, here's the thing-he has never had a foreskin that he can remember. He has no clue what its like. He cannot CANNOT say that he would want to be circumcised because he just plain doesnt know. The vast majority of intact men are very happy with their penises as is and many say they feel bad for circ'd men who have never known the joy of having a foreskin. And yes, many men feel like there is nothing wrong with being circ'd, BUT many of those same men have no clue what was lost to them. Many men have impotence problems, they might "finish" too quickly or take a very long time, they might get sore down there after sex, many women get sore down there after as well, and about 10% of circ'd men had meatal stenosis as a child which was directly a result of circumcision. Some men also have too tight of a circ, some have problems with adhesions, some have wierd looking scars, skin tags, skin bridges....I could go on and on. The problem is that most men do not associate any of these problems with being circumcised.
Also, it is very much not true that all men are happy with being cut. We personally know several men who are unhappy about it. There are also a huge number of men on the net seeking info on restoring, or going through restoration as we speak. They dont like being circ'd and want their foreskin back. Unfortunately, they can never get back their foreskin; a man who is intact can easily have it cut off later if he so desires. My dh happens to be one man who hates the fact that he was circ'd and is a very big intactivist.
Had your dh been left intact, he could have decided later to be circumcised, under general anesthesia or with a full block. He could have asked for exactly the look he desired. He would have had vicoden or percocet to help with any pain and discomfort. And he wouldnt have been sitting in urine/feces in a diaper while it was healing. Babies dont have these luxeries. No medication that can be used on a baby is 100% effective at eliminating the pain of circumcision. Shoot, most doctors dont use anything at all or they use something but dont wait the 30 minutes to an hour for it to start working properly. The result is that this brand new to the world, tiny baby has to endure the pain of having his foreskin ripped away from the head (glans) of his penis, much like ripping a fingernail back, he has to feel a clamp crushing his foreskin (to prevent bleeding) and then finally, feel his foreskin (which, by the way, has more nerves than any other part of the body) being cut away. After that, all he gets is Tylenol for the pain and has to spend weeks healing in a diaper. And on top of that, he has no clue WHY. You also risk being able to breastfeed-circ'd babies tend to have problems with nursing. And you risk infection, excessive bleeding, meatal stenosis....etc.
Bottom line-it should be your sons choice-not yours or your dh's.

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#43 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 06:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chinaKat
I'm not asking for snark.

If people are going to just jump all over me with snotty comments, I guess I'll just leave this board and go along with my husband's wishes. It will certainly be easier for me to do that.
I don't see how her comment was snotty. It was absolutely accurate. Almost every woman in the countries that do female genital mutilation are fine with it. The ones who run to other countries and are pissed about having bits of them cut off are the rare exceptions.
Just because most are okay with it doesn't make it okay to do. And the same is true of male circumcision.

And not all guys are okay with being circed. Here's my first post on this forum, for instance: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=543066
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#44 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 06:29 PM
 
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There is also a new epidemic of MSRA that is going around in hospitals and it's effecting circumcised baby boys, I just don't know why anyone would want to preform cosmetic surgery that could result in a deadly infection.

Here is s link to an artlicle about it (WARNING.....REALLY GRAPHIC PICTURES)

It might be a good article to show DH

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#45 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 06:34 PM
 
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Some dont even equate female circ with male circ but here is a link that lines them up side by side to compair. MGM & FGM In case you want to bring that up with your dh as well.

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#46 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 08:00 PM
 
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My DH had NO problems with his circ either......

UNTIL he found out about WHAT it was MISSING.


Now we know that a lot of our sex problems are because of his circ. A decision that his mother made when he was 4. He was born at 26 weeks or else he would have been done at birth, but he was too small so they told her to wait. She got the $$ when he was 4 and had it done.

He is in the process of restoring what was taken from him without his permission.


I personally don't think it is appropriate to compare circumcision to being deaf, because people are BORN DEAF. Little boys are BORN WITH FORESKINS.

My DH had no problem leaving our son intact. I asked him what he thought about it, he said why, I said it's not necessary, he said OK, if you don't think it's necessary we won't do it. End of story. BUT if he wanted him to be circ'd, I would have refused and never consented. Either way I would win. I am the MOM.


: Robyn : Increasingly crunchy Mama to Kya (8) , Makena (7) , and Keegan (4) :
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#47 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 08:26 PM
 
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I hear what you are saying.

But on the flip side of your analogy, how about the deaf community? Many deaf people hope for deaf children, and opt not to have cochleal implants or whathaveyou to restore hearing. If they are *fine* with the way that they are, who am I (as a member of the hearing community) to tell them that they are "missing out"?

Just being devil's advocate here, not trying to troll.



Analogy doesn't work.

It would take a society where the MAJORITY of people are deaf.






Your husband will be fine with it unless he researches what he is missing.


A person born with impediments do not know they are impeded. An infant with its foreskin removed is the same thing.





I am a man who is circumcized. I have issues with mine. I can not have all of my foreskin back no matter what. The default is to leave it alone and if ur child wants to remove hit when he becomes an adult, that is his perogitive.

But you can not garuntee that your son won't have issues. It is cutting off a fully functional piece of the body in hopes that nothing goes wrong, instead of leaving it alone and knowing that your son won't have meatal stenosis or death due to his circumcision, knowing that he wont have TRAPPED penis, which trust me, is nothing to laugh at, and knowing that he won't be brought into this world and one of his first experiances would be a piece of his body being cut off.


Even if they use pain killers to cut it off, your kid has to deal with an open wound for 4-6 weeks with piss and poop going into it.



No snark here, just the facts. And the facts are that the forskin has uses for a baby, and an adult. And removing it should be your sons decision.

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#48 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 08:27 PM
 
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I'm a 31-year-old happily (...deliriously!!!) intact male with no problems what-so-ever, and myself and my two younger brothers were all left intact because my parents thought circumcision was a stupid thing to force on to a child with the thought that it's my own body, and if I wanted to get circumcised, I could decide for myself when I was older (18+). Plus they had a doctor who didn't recommend it all... and this was in 1975 in Canada!

I wouldn't want to be any other way!!!

Here's a quick history lesson on "reasons" why Americans circumcised newborn males throughout the past 2 centuries. Watch the U.S. rate compared to the world rate. For some reasons, Americans jump into a frizzy and play "hack 'em off" with newborn boys' foreskins right away when these theories are announced, where the rest of the world played a wait-and-see attitude. In the end all these "reasons" (stops masturbation, cures epilepsy, etc.) turn out to be very ridiculously false, yet the cultural brainwashing remains ingrained in the American psyche.

I'll also state Canada use to closely follow the U.S. circ rate (overall as a country; Quebec and Newfoundland exempt), although slightly lower up until the past 2.5 decades, when wisely realized our mistakes and began phasing it out.

http://www.icgi.org/medicalization_o...ion.htm#Page_1

P.S. I enthusiastically commend you on wanting to learn more about the issue and actually doing it.
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#49 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 08:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chinaKat View Post
This is the biggest argument my husband won't buy.

I don't have a PENIS, so my foreskin experience doesn't count!



Your husband doesn't have a foreskin so his penis does't count?

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#50 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 08:36 PM
 
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I know a lot of circ'd men think it's "fine", but they really wouldn't know any different. I had a botched circ and re-circ; I know it's not "fine." True, we are probably the exception rather than the rule, but what would a parent say to their child if they're one of the unlucky ones? That they rolled the dice with their genitals for something that was completely unnecessary?
All circs are different - leaving less or more of any number of parts of the skin system of the penis. This depends on the boy's original, natural anatomy, the type of tool(s) used for circ, AND a LOT depends on the operator's preference for how a circ should "look". His or her aesthetics. Some say you must remove all the inner foreskin for a proper circ; some say you must make the skin immobile (I have a quote to this effect from the early 1900's)... it just really depends. The Gomco clamp gives a straighter cut, but tends to cut off more skin; the plastibell gives a more jagged cut and depending on how it helas as the bell falls off, the skin can be twisted or not heal correctly; and all can have skin bridges and pits and etc. etc.

In the end.... NO circ is "fine"! They all radically change how the penis works. Some leave the frenulum in part, and some leave nothing but a bare, ccrevace where there once was a very sensitive underside of the penis; all of them make (ALL OF) the skin on the penis partially or completely immobile. And no circ can EVER "match" another.
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#51 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 08:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chinaKat
This is the biggest argument my husband won't buy.

I don't have a PENIS, so my foreskin experience doesn't count!
Actually you have the female equivalent of the penis it is called the clitoris and the cover over the clitoris is the same thing as the male foreskin just shaped different. They both serve to protect the sensitive nerve bundle and glans That's right the glans is supposed to be a internal organ just like the nerve bundle in the clit.


One thing that really is a big :Puke factor for me is the fact that some stranger you dont know is not only "shaping" the boys penis into what they think it should look like. : but does so by actually stimulating a erection on a infant to better see were to cut!!!! : Does that bother anyone else as bad as it is me right now?!?!?!?!

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#52 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 08:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MCatLvrMoMof2 View Post
Actually you have the female equivalent of the penis it is called the clitoris and the cover over the clitoris is the same thing as the male foreskin just shaped different. They both serve to protect the sensitive nerve bundle and glans That's right the glans is supposed to be a internal organ just like the nerve bundle in the clit.
Also don't forget that the clitoris is a wish-bone shape- going down into the labia, as well as the part that is analogus to the penis. So unless this part is cut out too, even those who have their clitoris carved out in during FGM, still have SOME sensation left. I would think it would be about the same as being circumcised as a male.
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#53 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 08:55 PM
 
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Actually you have the female equivalent of the penis it is called the clitoris and the cover over the clitoris is the same thing as the male foreskin just shaped different. They both serve to protect the sensitive nerve bundle and glans That's right the glans is supposed to be a internal organ just like the nerve bundle in the clit.


One thing that really is a big :Puke factor for me is the fact that some stranger you dont know is not only "shaping" the boys penis into what they think it should look like. : but does so by actually stimulating a erection on a infant to better see were to cut!!!! : Does that bother anyone else as bad as it is me right now?!?!?!?!

Yes, it bothers me too. Very creepy and twisted: .
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#54 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 08:55 PM
 
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I'm not asking for snark.
I don't think TigerTail meant it to be snarky. She's telling you the truth. In places where they cut girls' genitals, the women are the ones pushing for it, the ones holding down their daughters, and the ones doing the cutting. And they do it because they honestly think it's better, it was done to them, and they are just fine.
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But on the flip side of your analogy, how about the deaf community? Many deaf people hope for deaf children, and opt not to have cochleal implants or whathaveyou to restore hearing. If they are *fine* with the way that they are, who am I (as a member of the hearing community) to tell them that they are "missing out"?
you know, this is interesting. Being born deaf, regardless of the amazing way that they ahve formed a culture around it, is a birth defect. Something went wrong. So is being born without a foreskin. If a baby is born without skin covering his glans, it gets recorded as a birth defect, called aposthia. If a child of deaf parents is born hearing, do they have surgery to "correct" that so the child will fit in in their culture? Would you have surgery to remove your child's hearing? Can you think of any other surgery designed to make a child look like he has a birth defect?

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#55 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 08:57 PM
 
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I guess my question is, why is this issue such a big deal to us women at MDC, if men who have actually been circumcised seem to be okay with it?
There are men who aren't ok with it. For example, me. I absolutely hate being circumcised. It was a violation of my most basic rights to have my whole body. There was nothing wrong with me; no medical condition to speak of. My parents just decided that their son needed the traditional American genital mutilation.

Men circumcised as babies have no idea what they have lost. They really have no idea if they really are better off circumcised, but their ego forces them to believe they are. That's the only way to explain why a man would want less penis and be totally ok with it.

The bottom line is that it isn't your penis to have cut. It isn't your DH's penis to cut, either. The penis belongs to your son. If he wants to have less penis, he can choose it for himself, later. Don't expect your doctor to be supportive. He's in it for the money and circumcision makes a hell of a lot of money for a efficient "doctor."
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#56 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 09:04 PM
 
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I am a circumcised male and I always wonder what sex would be like with a foreskin.I was born during the time when circ was automatic so I do not really hold my parents accountable but I would have been somewhat upset if I was circed in this day and age where it is on a mainstream level considered cosmetic surgery.Anyway hopefully your DH will open up his mind.It is always hard when spouses don't agree.
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#57 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 09:20 PM
 
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I hear what you are saying.

But on the flip side of your analogy, how about the deaf community? Many deaf people hope for deaf children, and opt not to have cochleal implants or whathaveyou to restore hearing. If they are *fine* with the way that they are, who am I (as a member of the hearing community) to tell them that they are "missing out"?

Just being devil's advocate here, not trying to troll.
The difference here is that no one chooses to lose their hearing or forces someone else to lose their hearing. If someone is fine with their lack of hearing, good for them. Its no reason to wish it on someone else.

Maybe your son would want to experience normal sex like 80% of the world does. How could you make him miss out on that just because your husband is ok with it?
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#58 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 10:30 PM
 
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The difference here is that no one chooses to lose their hearing or forces someone else to lose their hearing. If someone is fine with their lack of hearing, good for them. Its no reason to wish it on someone else.?

Exactly! It's more equivalent to a child that can hear being born to deaf parents, and the parents jab a pencil in the child's ears so that they can lose their hearing and be more like the parents.

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#59 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, thanks for all the helpful information everybody, especially from the majority of you that took a helpful rather than judging tone.

I can tell that this is an issue near and dear to all of your hearts. Like I said, I'm coming here from a position where every single person I know is pro-circ, and almost nobody I know thinks it's much of a big deal at all. Hence my personal position of curiousity (rather than activism) on the issue.

It was interesting to read the responses from the men, I didn't realize so many men posted here.

I can't believe how many responses this thread got in just a few hours! Many of you are very eloquent in making the Case Against Circumcision.
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#60 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Analogy doesn't work.

It would take a society where the MAJORITY of people are deaf.


Just to clarify, my analogy was in response to a mythical society posed as:

Quote:
Imagine, if you will, an entire society of colorblind people. They'd never believe it when a small handful of folks told them about the vivid colors they could see, and how much this majority was missing out on.
It doesn't really matter.

It was more rhetorical than anything else.

I do understand the difference between being born with a birth defect and altering a child's body. The original analogy that I was responding to was the former, rather than the latter.

It's off topic, nonetheless.
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