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#61 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 10:55 PM
 
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My dh is NOT okay that he was circed and if he had been given a choice about his own genitals he would have kept his foreskin.
For me to cause my baby that much pain and to permanately alter his body there better be a damn good/necessary reason for it and with circ there just isn't. Also it just makes no sense at all that all male babies (in the US anyway) require immediate surgery on their genitals.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#62 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 10:59 PM
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Prepuce = labia minora

Baby girls get UTIs too and they have discharge.

Should we cut them too?

Strong words are sometimes necessary to find for those without a voice, like newborn baby boys.
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#63 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 11:15 PM
 
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Naw, prepuce = prepuce. We all have one. Labia minora are fused into scrotal skin in boys (or is it just majora? What do the minora become? I'm forgetful today.)

But points valid, nonetheless.
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#64 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 11:28 PM
 
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Chinakat,
Welcome here. I proably would have been in your shoes except I met, lived with and had a baby with a 'man who had a foreskin' . I used to be pro-choice because if I had been more with it than the pro-choice I was when me and my cousin were pg at the same time . I would have been brave and showed her the pictures and that might have saved my cousin boy from circ. I have been opening up to my brother and his wife about saying no to circumcision . I so pray and pray that my nephew will never have to face that 'path' because I don't want him to go through unneccessary pain for a surgery with no benefits and risk of immediate to later compilcation.

I would say to the penis argument You don't have OUR SON's Penis OR Our Son's Foreskin. "he won't have a 'comeback for that' if he does' come and post it.
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#65 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 11:43 PM
 
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Hiya Chinakat!!

I was you, except I didn't research or try to get information so

My dh is circ'd (born in 1976, and his parents werent even ASKED : ) So, when our midwife asked us if we planned to circ, we said "yes" for all the reasons stated before - dh is, so he wants his son to look like him, cleaner, etc...blablabla.

To be perfectly honest, that's it. I never looked into it, like you I was surrounded by people in my life who just assumed when you had a boy you circ'd him...that's normal.

Then...I had him, and our tertiary midwife delivered him, and when she called us the next day to checkup on him, dh answered the phone and spoke with her. He causally mentioned circ, and asked where we could get it done and that was it -- she freaked!! "You're telling me, after this beautiful, natural birth your going to mutilate your son!! Do you know that *insert anti-circ info*??? And promptly sent our main midwife with information. Dh was floored, I read the info, then did some web searches...That was it.

Everyone is moved by different reasons, for me it was the statment that circ'd boys have a difficult time looking their mothers in the eye when they after a circ. I bawled!!!!!!! I told Jeff, even if it's NOT true, I don't care I don't want to take the chance!!

Now ds is almost 2, and everytime I bathe him my heart leaps with love and a pang of guilt with what I almost did to him.

We all have our moments, your dh needs to find his and you need to help him.
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#66 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 11:44 PM
 
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I'm so glad that you're here! I am very happily married to a very happily intact man. Dh is entirely grateful to his mother for protecting him from having part of his penis amputated without his consent, as am I. The foreskin is such an integral part of the penis that I still (even after reading threads about sex with circumcised men here for well over a year) am unable to picture how exactly a circumcised penis would even work. I have several friends IRL who have experienced both intact and circumcised men and both prefer intact hands down.

I would probably take the "It's HIS penis and HE should get to decide when he's of a legal age to do so." tack. I can't think of anyone being able to argue that one... had I been unfortunate enough to be born a boy, I would have been circumcised like my brothers were. Thankfully I was a girl : I would thank my MIL in a heartbeat if she was still alive for sticking up for my dh when he couldn't speak for himself. Dh is very attached (no pun intended ) to his foreskin and I find it to be a very necessary part of his anatomy.

It can be hard to go against what everyone in real life does, but take comfort in the fact that you would be doing the right thing

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#67 of 79 Old 11-14-2006, 11:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chinaKat View Post
I'm not asking for snark.

If people are going to just jump all over me with snotty comments, I guess I'll just leave this board and go along with my husband's wishes. It will certainly be easier for me to do that.
I know you've been very complimenting of some of the posters who post in a style that you prefer. However, threatening to amputate your son's foreskin to spite a bunch of folks on the internet is

Another reason not to circ: you will regret it. I let my first dh make the decision for my first son, 15 years ago, for the same reasons you listed: he had the penis. And also because I didn't want to him to feel left out of the whole pregnancy childbirth thing.

Almost as soon as it was done, I knew it was wrong. I'm glad though, that I then had two girls because I'm sure I would've just done it again to another.

Thankfully, when researching it while pregnant with my 2nd husband's first child, and my 4th, once he learned that babies have been deformed (with infections and gangrene) and even died from circ, he was aghast and of course quickly agreed that we would not circ.

So now I have to live with the guilt of agreeing to circ my first son, soley on the word of a man that later turned out to be a liar and a cheater, not exactly someone who's opinions I'd generally trust. And my son, now 15, has to spend the rest of his life without a foreskin, because of MY mistake.

Ask yourself a couple questions. If you leave your son intact, and the "worst" happens and he does actually need to have a medical circumcision later in life (very rare), how will YOU feel about that? You might regret not circumcising him.

However, what if you circ him and the "worst" happens and he is permanently deformed, never to have normal intercourse, or even dies (yes, also very rare) how will YOU feel about that? Will you be able to live with yourself knowing that you KNEW it was unnecessary and a cosmetic procedure, that most of the world's men lived their life happily intact, and you had it done anyway?

I know for me, I don't think I could live with knowing that I caused deformity or death to my children for something so TRIVIAL as cosmetic reasons.
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#68 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 12:07 AM
 
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I think many men, perhaps do know something bad has happened to them, but they dont want to admit it and to appear or even think, that somehow they have lost something, that they are deficient. Many do not want to confront the emotions that result from knowing that an important and intensely pleasurable part of their body was stolen from them. They tried to avoid confronting this reality by trying to ignore any harm done and trying to convince themselves that no harm was done to them, or that somehow it was a good thing. They ignore the functions of the foreskin, and they try to avoid any sort of realisation that they have less sensitivity than they would have if they had a foreskin. Many men will not even acknowledge that MGM is an amputation of a body part. Many perhaps are in denial and are trying to avoid thinking or having others think they have been harmed. But they have been harmed, and if they were intact, these same men probably would have been glad they were intact and would have been simply outraged by the idea of the foreskin they are able to know and appreciate being removed from them.

Many men, do however feel greatly deprived and harmed by MGM, and I am one of them, and knows that and have always known that I have lost something, even before I knew what circumcision was. Many men do feel very deprived, perhaps because they are not afraid to confront the realities of what has been done to them, or because they have an intuitive or an innate knowing or awareness of the pleasure they should be able to experience with a foreskin, but do not have, and feel deprived. Somehow, I know the pleasures I should have, I know and have always known I am missing something wonderful and bueatiful.

I am a mutilated man, and I am not at all happy with what has happened to me. You have a very small sample of the population and there are many men who are upset at what was done to them. I knew something was very wrong and that I was missing something, i felt deprived and very frustrating, I had excruciatingly painful experiences of sensory deprivation, when I knew I should be able to get some wonderful pleasure, but there was almost nothing, where I could not even masturbate after many years of attempts, because of what they did to me, what they stole from me. I am very upset about it and I wish it had never been done to me. I wish I still had my foreskin, and my foreskin being stolen from me has caused me great loss and pain. I have hardly any sensitivity at all, and it is very unfulling and frustrating, including before I was aware that part of my penis had been cut off.

Circumcision destroys the most sensitive and nerve rich part of the body, the foreskin, which is there to provide its owner with wonderful pleasures. Removing it is like removing a persons taste buds, or their colour vision, it is depriving them of a big part of life that they will never know, and will never be able to appreciate. I dont think many women would like it if they were strapped down and all of their pleasure erogenous centres were cut off, including your labia and clitoris, and left with 5% or less of your erogenous pleasure to enjoy. This is what happened to me, and it makes me literally cry. The male foreskin is the primary centre of pleasure function on the male body, especially the ridged bands, which I have completely lost. It is a part of my life that has been stolen from me, it is pleasures and sensations that I will never know and enjoy. The foreskin is the most senseitve part of the body, and like taste buds, or eyes, it provides sensations and pleasures of a type found nowhere else. Removing it drastically narrows the ranges of pleasures that a man is able to experience.

Before I knew about circumcision, when I was a child. I had a deep sense that I was mutilated somehow, and felt very betrayed and angry towards my parents. I wondered what the heck they had done to me as an infant. I knew something very painful had been done. I also have memories, which I had since I was a young child, of being strapped down to a plastic board, on my back, naked, in a hospital, as an infant. It is a truly awful and horrifying memory. I remember severe and excruciating pain, that I really cannot describe. There are no words. It is horrible. the most horrible you can imagine. it felt like an assault, it felt like, rape, violation, and torture. It was unbearable trauma. I get hyperventilated and start to shake and cry when i thought of it. It makes me want to roll up into a fetal position. I am determined that no one else should have to endure such unbearable and excruciating agony and suffering.

I beg you, anyone please, please, please do not let this happen to your children. I try to do everything I can to stop this barbaric and horrible practice. I dont know why people think its crazy to be so determined to save children and to protect them from harm. I think its terribly cruel and mean to simply ignore the pain and suffering being caused here, and the systematic and routine supression of a mans natural sensitivity and pleasures which should be a birthright.

I believe that everyone has a right to a whole body and that our boys deserve the same protections from genital mutilation as our girls do. No child should have parts of his/her body removed, it is the childs body and the child will be the one who will have to live in it and bear the damage that this obscene practice causes, including the massive loss of function. Males should be able to what he wants with his own body and it is not the property of others. It is severely unethical and should be illegal to remove body parts from male or female childrens bodies. Circumcision has dangers, and causes severe damage, including drastic reduction in male sensitivity. Circumcision is a cruel, inhuman, and degrading, depraved and barbaric practice, that has no place in a society that respects individual right including the basic right to bodily integrity, which does apply to children. It is an individual choice and should only be an individual choice, that is the choice of the person whose body it is, not parents, not anyone else, regarding such a medically unessential amputation and destruction of the most sensitive body part on the human body, depriving the person of beautiful and wonderful pleasures and sensations they will never know and never be able enjoy for the rest of their lives. Circumcision is like removing a persons taste buds, it takes away a part of the persons life, an experience, they will never be able to appreciate. Please, please, lets end this barbaric procedure. We should side with those who do not want to mutilate and cut off parts of a childs body, not with those who want to mutilate and destroy the childs body parts. If the person wants a circumcision, they can always choose to have it done as an adult, this preserves the right to make up ones own mind as a fully informed adult . Only the person whose body it is should have the right to make these decisions regarding unnecessary amputations of normal body parts. The foreskin is not a birth defect. His choice, his body, his rights. As a mutilated man, I feel my rights have been violated and I should have been allowed to keep my whole body and to be able to make my own decisions to keep parts of it myself as an adult. Its MY BODY, and MY RIGHTS to a whole body have been violated. Circumcision of children should be illegal. It is a inhumane and barbaric sexual assault and mutilation of the bodies of helpless children.

There is no valid or ethical reason to circumcise children, removing a normal body part that the child is born with. Everyone has a right to a whole body, and no body part should be removed for conditions that are not currently present, are minor, or which can be treated with less invasive methods. the fact, is, the conditions that circumcision is claimed to prevent are very rare already, and removing healthy body parts from a child to prevent a disease that does not actually exist at present is deeply wrong. if we were to use this logic, we could remove every body part, since every part can have something go wrong with it. I would say well less than 1% of men will ever need to be circumcised, much less than that probably moe like 0.1%. And then it can be done safely and with full general anesthetics, and the person can make sure they get enough pain relief, and it is far less traumatic, since the adult knows why its being done and is able to cope with it, an infant, cannot cope, all it is to the infant is a brutal assault and attack on it little body. And it truly is, since there is no reason to do it to infants pretty much at all. Nearl y every circumcision of an infant is done to treat no condition whatsoever. There truly is no more need to circumcise boys than there is to do the same to girls.

Despite common belief it is much more painful and hard on the infant to have circumcision done than rather than as an adult. At least an adult can be given general anesthetic more safely and is able to work to assure that they receive sufficient painkillers and to vocalise their needs. An infant is a fully aware and conscious being, and must not be subject to extremely painful practices, and circumcision, even with local anesthetic is extremely painful.

It is very unlikely that a person will ever need circumcision. Again, conditions of the penis are rare,a nd when they usually do occur, can be treated usually without circumcision. UTIs are 5 to 50 times more common in girls than boys, but does anyone propose strapping down girls and slicing of their most sensitive sexual organs? No, we use antibiotics to treat them, The same should be done for boys. UTIs in boys are in fact very rare and are never a good reason to circumcise. The only conditions that may actually require circumcision is penile cancer, frostbite and gangrene, and these are very rare conditions on the foreskin. Circumcised men can still get penile cancer. Penile cancer can much more easily prevented through other lifestyle habits, and usually occurs in elderly men. It has a rate of about 0.1%. Not a good reason to mutilate millions of helpless little children and deprive them of normal sexuality for the rest of their lives. By comparison, 20% of females get beast cancer, do we removed the breasts of every female at birth? It would reduce breast cancer rates by 100%. Again, it is wrong and unethical to remove body parts from children for diseases that dont even exist. Our body is our most sacred posession, and everyone has a right to all of it. Removing parts can seriously effect a person for the rest of their lives. Due to the extreme sensitivity of the foreskin to pleasure sensation, removing the foreskin is like removing a persons taste buds, it deprives them of normal sensations and a part of life they will never be able to appreciate and experience. Needless to say, it can have major and life long effects on a person and even the psychological states they can experience. messing with peoples bodies is literally messing with their minds, you are altering the way they experience life and this is deeply wrong, even sinister and evil. Cirucmcision removes the most densely innervated part of the body, which like taste buds, produce experiences provided by no other part of the body, the foreskin is the most sensitive part of the body, and removing it permenantly and drastically narrow the range of pleasure sensations a man is able to enjoy, denying to them a whole range of beauty, pleasure and enjoyment for the rest of their lives. it isa life long sentance to sensory deprivation. Circumcision removes around 20,000 highly sensitive touch pleasure nerve endings, the most sensitive part of the body.

Cirucmcision truly has serious and life long implications for the persons whose body it is. Circumcision, a of a body part, can deprive a person of normal sensitivity and pleasure for the rest of their life, it is a body part that they will never know and never be able to enjoy. i feel this loss deeply, when I found out that someone had cut off a part of my penis, i was cried and depressed about it for weeks. I was very upset at my parents for letting them do this to me. Even before I learned what had happened, I had a deep sense that I had been mutilated and tortured somehow when I was small infant. I had memories of being strapped down to a plastic board, naked, in a hospital, on by back, as an infant, since my early childhood, long before I knew was circumcision was. I have had deep feelings of betrayal, i knew that something awful had been done to me as an infant.

Circumcision reduces the skin surface area of the penis by 50%, and since pleasure is created by nerve endings, and nerve endings are in skin, this results in a devastating sensory loss. Its very obvious to men who are honest about their loss that they have less sensitivity that they should have. Even a 5% loss of sensitivity is criminal. it is truly wrong and abhorrent to deprive people of pleasure and sensitivity for life.

I know to the permenant sexual damage that is caused by male genital mutilation. I have almost no sensitivity at all, and very little pleasure or joy comes from surface touch sensations. Long before I even knew what circumcision was, I had a very unpleasant experiences, of extreme frustration and confusion, as a result of this. I knew I should be able to experience intense pleasures and joy, their is a very real psychological need for this pleasure and joy. But, in my self pleasure attempts, despite a deep knowing that I should be able to reach some intense high of pleasure, I originally was not able to masturbate at all. I was attempting to do it the way I suppose an intact person would, but of course, by attempting to roll or massage the foreskin, but there was no foreskin left to roll or massage at all. There was an instictive need to do this, and when I couldnt do it, It was very confusing and bewildering psychologically. I really cannot describe the confusion. I do believe males know instinctively when it is right to retract and clean themselves, as well. I remember, as a child, trying to retract a foreskin that wasnt there. Circumcision makes masturbation without an orgasm much more difficult and far less pleasurable. At least for me, an unintact, mutilated man, what little pleasure there is seems to come at the time of orgasm, there is little, at least for me, pleasure coming from surface pleasure. For me it is very difficult to get much of any pleasure at all without an orgasm. The pleasure that comes the entire experience is inadequate, dull and unsatisfying.

What I have left has hardly any erogenous sensitivity at all. I, from the amount of erogenous skin surface I have remaining, and from an understanding of which parts of the intact anatomy are the most sensitive, I have approximately less than 1% of my highly erogenous and heavily nerve laden skin surface remaining. What I have left is not very sensitive and not very much more sensitive than any other part of the body. It is a virtually complete erasure of a mans erogenous specialised touch sensitivity. To say that this is a nearly total sensory castration and loss, that is nearly complete erasure, descruction, and annihilation of specialised touch pleasure sensations and sensitivity of male sexuality, a whole world of intense pleasures, beauty and sensations, even induced emotional and psychological states from this, that I will never know and never be able to enjoy, is an understatement. This is as bad or worse than removing a persons taste buds or sense of smell. Just as removing a sense of smell would completely alter a persons life, really steal a part of their life from them, forever denying to them normal sensations and experience, literally cutting a part of themselves off from being able to experience pleasurable aspects of the world and life, Circumcision removes from men the most pleasurable and enjoyable aspects of life, a very significant part of their life and their pleasure has been stolen from from. It is so awfully sad and tragic. It has caused in me feelings of severe deprivation and loss, and I have often cried about it. Ive had feelings betrayal and hurt from this. The deeply buried trauma that were created from the circumcision event itself, and the shock and emotional trauma that I experienced when i found out that a part of my body had been butchered and destroyed when I was a helpless infant, is very real. I cried and was depressed for some time when I found out what they had done to me when I was too helpless and defenceless to protect and defend myself from this henious and brutal mutilation and torture.

Body parts cannot be amputate simply because they seem non essential. The entire body is an important part of a persons life, since the body parts do not only have a function for maintanence and systemic function of the body, but also, especially with the foreskin, serve a function of providing for sensory input, which is a big part of life as well. It is sensory input which connects us to this world.

People have always asked what function do the male nipples serve. Simply because something doesn't have an apparent function, does this mean we can cut it off. I say the only person who can judge its usefulness and value is the persons whose body it is. They should make all such choices. Has anyone considered that perhaps the male nipples have an pleasure purpose? people assume that certain parts of the body have no function, since they play no systems function for the body. But the sole purpose of all body parts is not only upkeep, but also sensory and pleasurable, and in fact, the body is our basic interface to this world. It is basically like a software program that connects you to the internet. If you delete a part of the program, lets say the part that displays images, you will not be able in that case to see any images. just text.A body part may of a purpose for its owner even for the reason that the owner simply like how it looks. They are the only ones who have the right to decide if a body part is important to them, and no one has a right to take away parts of their body without their consent as an adult, such as when they are a child.

An important part of life is being able to interact with the world, and to feel and sense pleasurures, to see, and to enjoy it. Without eyes you cannot see. Without skin you do not have nerves, and without nerves you cannot feel.It seems odd that there is such an obsessive focus on deleting and removing the erogenous and pleasure parts of the interface program from the childrens bodies. The body is what connects a persons consciousness to this world, deleting a part of it, disconnects a person from this world. It essentially deletes, steals and deprives, a person from a part of their life. It seems like this are trying to mess around with peoples minds, to artificially manipulate people, the experiences they can appreciate, and intrude on the most basic aspects of their lives through removing their bodies most sensitive and pleasurable, intensely erogenous part.

CIrcumcision has other possible harmful effects. The infliction of the severe trauma on the child could disrupt normal neurological and psychological development. Different parts of the body are said to be mapped to different areas of the brain, when one part of the body is removed, the part of the brain that corresponds to it may not be activated or utilised in the same manner. Especially with the foreskin, which is heavily loaded with nerve endings of a sort found nowhere else on the body, removing this permentantly deprives and eliminates certian signals being delivered to the brain and may inhibit or eliminate certian physiological or neurological, and psychological reactions and states. Some have suggested that the removal of the foreskin may remove triggers for certian hormone releases and neurological triggers.


i always say, if an adult wants to have circumcision done, they can always choose to do so as an adult. But it should not tbe done to children who may be easily coerced or may not be able to make a fully informed decision. People always say it is a personal decision, it is, it is only the persons whose body it is to be able to decide to keep this body part, not the parents, not anyone else. its his body, his choice, his rights. I always tell people, I would not circumcise my children not because it is my choice, but because it is not my choice.

Circumcision is a barbaric practice, which steals a persons most sacred birthright and posession, a part of their body, which can never be replaced. It deserves to be safely confined to the history books where it cannot torture, maim, inflict injury and suffering on, and traumatise any more children.
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#69 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 12:09 AM
 
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I wanted to add that the only valid medical reasons to circ are gangrene, frostbite and cancer. There are a few freak accedents were the foreskin is damaged beyond saving but you can imagine how rare that would be. As rare as the other reasons I listed.

Things like infections (even repeat ones can be treated in other ways).

UTI as I covered in my other post have nothing to do with the foreskin.

Phimosis (foreskin not retractable in teen and adult) can be treated with simple stretching with or without the use of a steroid cream.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

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#70 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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enstar -- did you write that whole post out just for me, or is it something you've previously posted? Either way, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
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#71 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 12:35 AM
 
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Hi ChinaKat:

It's great you're looking into this! My first child was a girl, but had she been a boy, she would have been circumcised. That's what seemed normal to me, and I didn't research it while pregnant because I was more concerned about simply making it through childbirth!

But as a new mommy, I quickly learned that attachment parenting was the best fit for me. Breastfeeding, responding to my baby's cries, keeping her near me, etc. I consult Dr. Sears when I have questions (http://www.askdrsears.com). I learned that many in this camp are anti-circ. I still thought that was a bit over-the-top, and thought I was just more mainstream in some areas.

I am an American who lived in Scotland the last 3 years, and now in Canada. These countries have very low circ rates, especially the UK. That made me question it too! Finally, I researched the issue more, especially as I am expecting a baby boy in January. I simply did not realize the function of the foreskin, or what would be lost in a circumcision. I also didn't realize how involved a circumcision is, even if it is done quickly. It's not just a snip. People say, "Oh but the baby won't remember it." Yes, the baby will remember it--the trauma will be written on his brain and affect his lifelong electro-chemistry. Of course, this will be much worse if no pain meds are used.

My DH is fine with not circing--his main concern was whether our son would be made fun of. I assured him that even in the US, our son would not be the only intact one. And look at us--we seem to be on a global tour! You just never know where you or your son will end up living. If your son really really wants to be circed someday, he can. If you circ him as a baby, you've taken away his choice forever.

DH hasn't had any penis problems, however, I do find sex to be quite chafing at times. We had a heck of a time finding Astroglide in Scotland--I think we had to import it from the US! It's just not necessary when sex is done as designed, with an intact penis.

Good luck!
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#72 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 12:35 AM
 
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enstar -- did you write that whole post out just for me, or is it something you've previously posted? Either way, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
To be honest, I did take some parts from other messages, but I thought they contained some interesting points that I thought might be useful.

I certianly hope, that this barbaric practice, is confined to the history books. I am confident that it will be and that good and kindness and respect for childrens bodies and rights will prevail over this hideous and horrible evil. Circumcision is far more severe than many people say it is, again, the taste bud and colorblind analogies. Psychologist Alice ****** has noted that deprivation of pleasure may lead to more violent behaviour. I know that the lack of pleasure does create a feeling of loss and deprivation, like there is something missing from my life, an emptiness.

I try to promote love and kindness in this world, and with a positive vision of ending this practice, and of children being allowed to grow up whole and unmutilated, and of being safe after being born and not being strapped down and assaulted, it can be ended.

The reasons given for circumcision are ethically invalid and have no legitimacy. It is wrong, morally and ethically, to amputate body parts that are normal and healthy, because something might go wrong with them later. No body part, and no one is safe, if we allow such dangerous ideas which weaken the very rights of an individual to a whole and complete body, autonomy, bodily integrity, and can lead to deprivaties and what I would call censoring of our body parts. It is no more difficult to come with with outrageous reasons to cut off any body part than it is for circumcision. I could just as easily invent a bunch of studies that amputating little girls breast prevents breast cancer, and maybe amputating parts of girls vaginas might prevent UTI. After all, girls have a UTI rate 5 to 50 times higher than boys! Would anyone suggest strapping down little girls to circumstraints and cutting up their genitals? Why is it okay to do this to boys? There is no ethically valid reason for it. Are boys less human, are their bodies deserving of less respect? Is it okay to mutilate and torture them and deprive them of normal sexuality for the rest of their lives? Are boys bodies worthless to our society, which seems eager to mutilate them at the first chance it can get? It seems to be no intentional that this is the most sensitive and pleasure sensitive, and perhaps the most conductive to various extremely intense states of experience, that are being removed, as if to systematically alter mens ability to experience certian emotional and psychological states, to censor men from these and to cut them of from these incredible experiences which should be the birthright of every human being. It seems to be an intentional supression and destruction of mens ability to feel pleasure. It seems to be a way to really mess with peoples minds by destroying their centres of extreme pleasure and physical triggers of physical emotional and psychological joy and pleasure.
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#73 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 01:44 AM
 
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Naw, prepuce = prepuce. We all have one. Labia minora are fused into scrotal skin in boys (or is it just majora? What do the minora become? I'm forgetful today.)

But points valid, nonetheless.
It all fuses along that line and I agree that prepuce=prepuce. However, the clitoris extends down in a wishbone shape along the labia majora and therefore that part gets erect as well. The labia minora are attached to the clitoral hood and pull on it too. So, its all related. You can't just say "cut off the clitoral hood is like cutting off the male's foreskin". You take away the movable part of the penis by removing "the foreskin" and likewise cutting off the labia minora and clitoral hood (connected to each other) would do something similar. (I have a photo of someone who had this done: left the majora but had the hood and minora completely removed.) You still have the clitoris there both outside AND inside so I coudl see how you'd still have lots of sensation and be comparable to a male circ- and dare I say it- even WITH the glans and exposed shaft of the clitoris missing. That's why circ'd women say they still enjoy sex: You still have what's under the labia majora AND the entire vaginal innards working- albeit a bit badly. If you then remove the majora completely, I don't know if the wishbone part of the clitoris is removed also, but that's a whole different idea. I don't agree that removing a clitoris = no sexual sensation elft, but at the same time, I don't agree that it is equal to male circumcision's loss of sensation. You have to think of function as well. We are not all that different from each other, males and females!
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#74 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 01:57 AM
 
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Oh, I know about the internal clitoral workin's. Amazing how few people do, though.

If I hear 'clitoris cut off' one more time... It's just partial!

It's terrible, and so is prepuce amputation:

Boy, girl, rusty knife, scalpel, America, Africa, 'botched' or 'successful', infant or teen. If it's done without informed consent or under social pressure to conform, or to minors, it's just wrong.
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#75 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 05:42 AM
 
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I guess my question is, why is this issue such a big deal to us women at MDC, if men who have actually been circumcised seem to be okay with it?
These men you know have had part of their genitals removed from birth - they do not know any different. Circumcised men do have many problems but they do not connect them with their circumcision status. Loss of sensitivity(the head of penis should look pink, be moist and very sensitive - just like women's clitoris), tight foreskin causes curved erections(sometimes even painfull erections when too much skin is removed), vericous veins, skin tags, hairy shaft and ofcourse the numb scarline are all caused by circumcision.

Cutting away the most sensitive part of genitals from helpless baby is a human rights issue. I could not care less if an adult wants to cut his/hers genitals but to do such a horrid act to a baby who has no choice...

Most of the world's men are intact(not circumcised). If we leave religious circumcision out, USA is the only country where cultural circumcision is practised. Most parts of the world view circumcision as act of violence and for example here in Scandinavia you can't even find doctors willing to do it.

If part of your genitals had been removed when you were born, you would be fine too. You would not know any better. How could you miss your clitoris if you never had it - if it had been removed when you were born?
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#76 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 10:50 AM
 
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Hi Mama!! I was where you are about a year ago. My DH is cut and wanted our son to be. I had never thought about it before, and when I talked to my SIL she was all for it. Something just seemed... I don't know.. OFF? My insurance covered everything in my pregnancy except for cutting the baby. I didn't know why..

So I found MDC! I found this forum by suggestion of another member at the VegFamilies forum and started reading. I read for a few hours about it, then watched a video. I cried. I mean, the first time I heard that baby scream, then scream and scream until nothing else would come out.. I just lost it. My DH came home from work shortly after, me still in tears, and I told him that under NO circumstances would anyone touch my baby.

When faced with an extremely hormonal, pregnant wife who was upset and crying, he did what any good husband would. "Alright, honey!! Whatever you say. Just calm down!!!"

Now he knows more about what happened to him, and why we wouldn't ever do that to our son. You have more than enough information in this thread.. I just wanted to offer support and let you know that you aren't alone. If you don't like the tone of some of the posts, it's only because this is a PASSION for a lot of people. Think about something that you're really passionate about. We feel the same way.

Something that I haven't seen mentioned, though, is the Penn and Teller show BULLSH!T. Rent it, download it, NetFlix it, whatever. I haven't heard a man who saw their special on Circumsicion that didn't change his tune. Someone else might have more info on what Season and Episode it is, all I know is that it effectively presents the information in an easy to understand and entertaining way.

Good luck. Please keep us posted Mama. And remember. YOU and only YOU are that baby's MAMA. YOU are responsible for protecting him, and YOU will regret not doing that.

2 Take care and CONGRATS!! Boys are so much fun!!
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#77 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 05:35 PM
 
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Hi China-

I am a little late to the discussion but wanted you to read this thread posted about a week ago. It came from a poster that reminded me of you. She got wonderful feedback that I thought you might like to look at it. I believe her last update to us was that she would not be circ'ing.

Here is her thread:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=556486

I would also advise you to read this article, one of my personal favorites: (takes 20 secs. to load)

http://www.luckystiff.org/files/SeparatedAtBirth.pdf

And please watch the graphic circ video with audio and read some of the comments too.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=481025

I didn't have time to read this whole thread and I apologize if this stuff was already given to you.

I know that your husband thinks "circ is just fine" and I am certain that this little boy's dad felt the same way:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=559696

I personally know of 2 people who needed to have their sons "redone" at age 2 and 3 yrs. So even though your family has never met anyone who suffers complications of circ, the stats are indeed quite high! Well over 10-15% of circ'd children will suffer complications and many many more suffer long-term consequences that are not properly recorded. Less than 1% of intact childen have any issues at all.

Forced genital cutting is an unnecessary birth trauma, with unnecessary complications. A person can always choose a circ for himself but they can never ever get back what was taken from them without their permission. I am happy that my son has all his original working equipment - I wouldn't have dreamed of revising who he was when he came to me.

Good Luck to you.
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#78 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 09:45 PM
 
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Oh, I know about the internal clitoral workin's. Amazing how few people do, though.

If I hear 'clitoris cut off' one more time... It's just partial!

It's terrible, and so is prepuce amputation:

Boy, girl, rusty knife, scalpel, America, Africa, 'botched' or 'successful', infant or teen. If it's done without informed consent or under social pressure to conform, or to minors, it's just wrong.
the inner labia fuse to surround the ureathra so that it extends to what become the meatus. Female to male transgendered people sometimes undergo a surgery that very much mimicks the natural development of the penis. This is after they undergo testosterone treatment to first enlarge the clitoris (among the many things testosterone does) to the size of ones thumb. they can then use their clitoralpenis to stand while urintating (there are pictures).

to: nathan1097
Comparing the removal of the prepuce of the female to male always seemed an equal comparison to me. I just had a thought while reading your post.The clitoris in many women even after having the prepuce removed would still be protected by the labia majora from abrasion and drying which leads to keratinization. So in most women the glans would still have the potential to be as sensitive as without its prepuce. Where as in men the glans is ALWAYS subjected to drying, abrasion, and eventually keratinization. So, i think on sensitivity standpoint the lose of a male prepuce would have a greater negative impact on sensitivity. Not that either one of them are any less disgusting. I think ive given myself a headache thinking about this again, or maybe its the stress of getting out new house.
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#79 of 79 Old 11-15-2006, 10:09 PM
 
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Thank you, AXEius.

Everytime you explain anatomy so clearly, a vaguely satanic weasel dies.
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