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#61 of 71 Old 01-05-2007, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by vermontgirl View Post
How can you NOT research a procedure in which a part of your newborns body is surgically removed?
I feel that way too. But on the other hand, I have a friend who is an absolutely WONDERFUL AP mom and she beats herself so badly for circ-ing their son. She just trusted the doctors who were telling her how great the circ is. Now when she knows the truth she is feeling horrible about what she has done to her boy . My heart is breaking for her as I can only imagine the horrible pain that I would have felt if I were her . I would probably cry hundred times every day...

As for myself, I have done three horrible mistakes with our first child as well. He was an IVF (invitro fertalization) baby and therefore, I've had the whole bunch of ultrasounds with him from the get-go. I had about 5 internal ultrasounds in just first 8 weeks of pregnancy. Then I trusted my OB saying that the early test for spina bifida and downs is better than the 20 weeks one and so I had a one hour ultrasound when I was about 3 months along. Then a standard 18 weeks u/s. And then starting at 20 weeks I had an internal u/s every two weeks to make sure my cervix wasn't shortening. and so on . When I have learned how bad ultrasounds are I just couldn’t imagine how dumb I was to trust the doctors and to actually believe that u/sounds were harmless . I'm beating myself for that so very much!
Then the vit k shot at birth. While we did decline the hep B, we figured there was nothing wrong with vitamin. Wrong! My poor baby! I have read just recently that it doubles the chances of leukemia and other kinds of cancer in kids under 10 years of age .
And then there were 9 shots (vaccination delayed only for 2 months) that we 'selectively' gave to our baby! How in the world could I be so ignorant?! How could I let them to inject poison into my perfectly healthy little boy?! How?! But I did. I thought I was making informed decisions

Yulia.
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#62 of 71 Old 01-05-2007, 10:37 PM
 
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vermontgirl,
I appreciate you starting this thread. I really do. You had an intense gut reaction that you realized was not compassionate, and you asked for help in sorting through your feelings. And you've done that, with the assistance of these wise people here, and come out the other side, better off.

I said in my first post that I understood vermontgirl's feelings. Gemelos, I hope you don't feel unsafe in this forum. Nothing has changed, for me, in how I view regretful mamas. I have so much sympathy for them, and I'm really grateful that they come on here and tell their stories to help others know the truth.

But recently, I had the wind knocked out of me and was unable to access those usual feelings of compassion for a short time. They were there, but I was really knocked for a loop. When we talk to and about regretful mothers here, it's usually at a remove- the circumcision was done months or years ago. The mothers of course still feel awful, but I can post with a "what's done is done, when you know better you do better" attitude. This time, knowing it was so fresh and raw and painful for a baby made me raw and painful too. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by not coming across as understanding and compassionate this time around. It was temporary.

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#63 of 71 Old 01-06-2007, 03:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture View Post
Honestly? Probably the same way most parents consent to allowing their child's flesh to be punctured and chemicals injected (vaccination) without doing much-if any-research. That's one routine parenting choice I made without being fully educated myself. When the standard American consensus is that the foreskin is just a tiny flap of skin and circumcision is a quick and virtually painless "little snip" it's often not even perceived by parents as "surgery"...kwim? On mainstream boards, I've seen some ignorant parents go so far as to compare it to trimming fingernails or a haircut.

Jen

Thats exactly what I thought when that nurse asked if I wanted it done. Again, I hadnt even thought about it but the first thing that popped in my head was a little piece of skin, no big deal. And then my mom made it seem perfectly ok too.
I totally agree. I do feel for the moms that realised when it was too late that they made a mistake. Course, I feel even worse for their sons, but seeing as I could have been in the same boat, I guess I cant help but feel some pity for the parents. However, for those who do know the facts-or who refuse to listen to them-I really dont feel sorry for them at all. They had the info, they should have known better, but they did it anyway. And those who refuse to ever admit they did anything wrong? Yeah, those are the worst.

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#64 of 71 Old 01-06-2007, 04:26 PM
 
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I have a complete right to be bitter feeling towards parents who circ their sons
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Part of me still blames them because I feel that they should have researched it. How can you NOT research a procedure in which a part of your newborns body is surgically removed? I dont understand it but I suppose I dont have to understand.
Honestly, it's attitudes that this that long kept me away from this forum. However, if it were not for what I have learned here, I wouldn't be so much of an intactivist. I appreciate those members here that encourage parents (who have already circ'd and obviously can't change that) to learn, to teach others what they know and to advocate whenever they can. I've honestly beaten myself up plenty on my own, thanks, and will continue to carry the guilt. I'm way less likely to spend time in a forum where people are hostile to past mistakes that can't be changed. As I said upthread, no one comes here looking for a big sympathetic hug for THEM for their (awful) transgression of circing, but many try to help others.

In regard to your question - I thought I *had* researched it. I spoke with every OB in my practice during prenatal vists - all talked about their "method" (surgicial, anestheic, pain management) - not a SINGLE one said, "Hey, this is not something that needs to be done." Out of three peds I preinterviewed while pg w/ DS, not a SINGLE one suggested any reason not to circ. At that time in my life, I thought it was a routine procedure, something that was done to pretty much all boys. All of my family, all of my co-workers, etc circ'd. The pregnancy books didn't present it as anything other than something you had to care for post-op.

My point is this...it's really easy to be contemptous and smug when you know you've made the right choice, but if there ever comes a time where you do err in your parenting, I hope you find a place to learn from your mistakes and get the right information without a side of snark.

Mama to DS (8) and DD (7) Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement.

 

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#65 of 71 Old 01-06-2007, 04:37 PM
 
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I don't know that you have to feel bad for the parents. I circumcised both of my boys. Before my first son was born I did research, or so I thought. I talked with pediatricians, who assured me that babies are now anesthetized. My husband was a strong believer and I figured he grew up being male so he would know better than I. I had my ds1 in a hospital and he was routinely wheeled out for tests so when they wheeled him out for his circumcision, I just reminded them to anesthetize him. The nurse brought him back and told me he fell asleep. He looked "normal" to me. With my second son he was in the NICU and I remember that I was worried that a different doctor would be performing the circ than our pediatrician. I watched this time. I watched him being strapped to a board and I heard him scream when he was anesthetized. I didn't think the anesthesia would cause this much pain. When he was brought back to me (I walked out) he looked like he'd been skinned. You could say I wasn't strong for my child. I didn't make them stop. But this is what I thought was the right thing for him. I was pretty mainstream before having DS1. It was only after having him that I breastfed and started being concerned about buying organic. I had never heard of Mothering Magazine. While pregnant with my second son I started a dental practice. I had many AP that nursed their children past a year. I used to think that was weird, but after seeing it, it seemed natural. I vowed to nurse past one year and nursed for 2. After my second son, I was traumatized by his circumcision. I noticed that he had recurring diaper rashes and my mom suggested a switch to cloth. I bought cheap cloth prefolds because that is what they sold at BAbies are Us. They worked. My DS2 is now 2. I recently discoved this forum and found the circ forum. I learned about things I had never heard before. I told my husband I would not circ a third boy. After 3 heated arguments I convinced him. The article that changed his mind was the one about the nursed that had circed her own sons but realized the horror of it while in nursing school. He is now a vocal advocate for breastfeeding and warns his pregnant female colleagues about the risks of circing. For me, becoming crunchy was a process that didn't come to me all at once. I don't think you can assume mainstream parents know there is a choice. It seems obvious now but it didnt to me then. Hind sight is 20/20.
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#66 of 71 Old 01-06-2007, 05:15 PM
 
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This forum, in general, is a very welcoming place for regretful mamas. As evidenced by the majority of posts on this thread!

I think those of you who are still chastising vermontgirl for her feelings should try to realize that *it's a process*. She posted for advice and help in working through this. Some have told her that she is wrong, insensitive, uncaring; others been very compassionate toward her and showed her other ways of thinking about it. I'd wager that it's the latter group who have helped change her viewpoint more. Being gentle needs to go both ways.

~*Kristi*~
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#67 of 71 Old 01-06-2007, 05:54 PM
 
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You have the right to be bitter, I suppose. Everyone has a right to their feelings, whether they are constructive or not.

I am not sure what you accomplish with your bitterness, except feeling righteous. And righteousness does NOT make for an effective intactivist.

I hate RIC. Hate it. I didn't circ my son, despite horrible pressure from my family, for religious reasons. I have put up with a lot of grief for refusing to hurt my son. A lot. I had no support whatsoever for my decision. I STILL have people sending me pro-circ articles. But once I did my research, the very thought of it made me want to vomit. And I stood firm.

But I understand that circ is still ROUTINE in this culture. I understand that demonizing people who do something that is ROUTINE does not help anything. I find the finger-pointing and demonizing and name-calling among some so-called intactivists to be so unproductive and such a complete turnoff that I simply can't count myself among them, despite my utter abhorance for circ. That is why I don't run in the normal intactivist circles. Sometimes I find the very people I agree with in principle to be utterly unapproachable and unreasonable.

I am much more interested in changing the ROUTINE part of the equation than I am in demonizing other women. Getting all insurance to stop covering it. Getting more doctors and hospitals on board. Encouraging parents to make educated choices. Making education about circ part of birthing classes and pre-natal care.

Clutching my "right" to be bitter to me like some kind of talisman of righteousness doesn't seem very productive to me. Kicking other mamas when they are down and most open to becomming intactivists seems utterly unproductive to me. Because it isn't about me and my outrage and my "bitterness." It isn't about ME at all. It is about stopping RIC. If I thought bitterness and lack of compassion would stop it, I guess I'd go there. But I know it won't. So why waste energy and create more divisiveness?

So the question is, what's more important to you? Being bitter, or being an effective advocate for your beliefs?
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#68 of 71 Old 01-06-2007, 06:37 PM
 
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I haven't read through everything yet and you can say whatever you want about me but....

Had I had my son before 2003, he would have been circumcised. Why? I honestly didn't know people did otherwise. Call me a midwest ignorant girl, but I really thought the entire world circumcized little boys. I wouldn't have researched it further because I didn't think I needed to. When I joined internet messages boards in 2003, I learned how truly ignorant I was. And my son's foreskin was saved as a result.

And I would have felt so incredibility sickened w/ guilt had it been too late for him.

For people that always knew circing was wrong I suppose it is hard to fathom people, like me, spending most of their lives in the dark. There are lots of mothers who found out too late. They live in horrible guilt, they don't need more added on to them.

Now, for those who know the truth about circ and do it anyway? I have an issue with those mothers. But I won't throw stones at someone who was truly ignorant when I came so close to being one of those mothers myself.
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#69 of 71 Old 01-06-2007, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture View Post
When the standard American consensus is that the foreskin is just a tiny flap of skin and circumcision is a quick and virtually painless "little snip" it's often not even perceived by parents as "surgery"...kwim? On mainstream boards, I've seen some ignorant parents go so far as to compare it to trimming fingernails or a haircut.

Jen
Or even...........cutting the umbilical cord. Some doctors present the foreskin as so "extraneous" that that becomes the mindset.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#70 of 71 Old 01-06-2007, 09:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by asherah View Post
You have the right to be bitter, I suppose. Everyone has a right to their feelings, whether they are constructive or not.

I am not sure what you accomplish with your bitterness, except feeling righteous. And righteousness does NOT make for an effective intactivist.

I hate RIC. Hate it. I didn't circ my son, despite horrible pressure from my family, for religious reasons. I have put up with a lot of grief for refusing to hurt my son. A lot. I had no support whatsoever for my decision. I STILL have people sending me pro-circ articles. But once I did my research, the very thought of it made me want to vomit. And I stood firm.

But I understand that circ is still ROUTINE in this culture. I understand that demonizing people who do something that is ROUTINE does not help anything. I find the finger-pointing and demonizing and name-calling among some so-called intactivists to be so unproductive and such a complete turnoff that I simply can't count myself among them, despite my utter abhorance for circ. That is why I don't run in the normal intactivist circles. Sometimes I find the very people I agree with in principle to be utterly unapproachable and unreasonable.

I am much more interested in changing the ROUTINE part of the equation than I am in demonizing other women. Getting all insurance to stop covering it. Getting more doctors and hospitals on board. Encouraging parents to make educated choices. Making education about circ part of birthing classes and pre-natal care.

Clutching my "right" to be bitter to me like some kind of talisman of righteousness doesn't seem very productive to me. Kicking other mamas when they are down and most open to becomming intactivists seems utterly unproductive to me. Because it isn't about me and my outrage and my "bitterness." It isn't about ME at all. It is about stopping RIC. If I thought bitterness and lack of compassion would stop it, I guess I'd go there. But I know it won't. So why waste energy and create more divisiveness?

So the question is, what's more important to you? Being bitter, or being an effective advocate for your beliefs?
Very well said, Asherah!
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#71 of 71 Old 01-06-2007, 10:24 PM
 
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I haven't read the first 4 pages (my attention span tonight is rather short) but I wanted to respond to the OP and this topic.

I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for me for the horrible choice I made with DS#1. I do expect to be supported for realizing my mistake, and learn from it and never circ another child as well as share how I feel about circ with anyone who wants to know. I feel for DS#1 every day, every time I change his diaper, when I take him to the potty, put him in the bath, etc. I feel horrible that he will never be whole. That he was treated so horribly within the first few hours of his birth (along with circ, he was removed from my arms minutes after birth, poked, probed, injected, bathed, etc. when he should have been warm and safe in my arms). I hope that as he gets older he will be able to cope with the mistake I made and I will support him in whatever he decides to do (reconstrution or not).

I do, however, feel horribly for woman who were given the information, yet still 'chose' to have their child circ. I have tried to share my feelings with other mothers, only to be shot down, and told that circ is still what they feel is right. If anyone had even given me an inkling of information showing that circ was a choice, then DS#1 probably could have been spared. I honestly had no clue that circ was a choice.

I was not the researching type. I got a stroller that I thought looked good, there in the store. I got the car seat that I wanted, that was there in the store. I only started researching after DS was born when I realized all the choices that I had.

I can't even tell you when I realized that circ was wrong, or that I could have not had DS#1 circ. But I do know that when he was two months old I began to morn the loss of his foreskin. I cried a lot, I told him I was sorry, I vowed I would never do it to any other child, etc. 3 years later I don't feel any better about it, I still get extremely emotional when I talk about it.

Lastly, I don't get offended or hurt when people write posts like this because if I had never circ DS#1 I may feel the same way the OP does. It's not like we are talking about someone using organic baby food or cloth diapers, we are talking about amputating a crucial part of a baby boys anatomy. Something that can never be taken back or fully restored. A 'mistake' like circ can never be fixed.
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