Spinoff: Would you distance yourself from (or disown) your child for circumcising? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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The Case Against Circumcision > Spinoff: Would you distance yourself from (or disown) your child for circumcising?
riverscout's Avatar riverscout 11:43 PM 01-16-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Not semantics at all, IMO, but a question of who holds responsibility for your feelings.

Your child may circ your grandchild because they convert to a different religion, new information is found (doubtful but you never know what's going to happen), or for some other reason dear to their heart that you may either not understand, or that you may understand and know to be wrong but they feel it is right.

The fact is, they are hurting their child, causing physical pain to their child. Your feelings as a result of that action are *your* feelings, not something they are doing to you.
I think you are reading too much into my choice of words.

Quirky's Avatar Quirky 11:56 PM 01-16-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Not semantics at all, IMO, but a question of who holds responsibility for your feelings.

Your child may circ your grandchild because they convert to a different religion, new information is found (doubtful but you never know what's going to happen), or for some other reason dear to their heart that you may either not understand, or that you may understand and know to be wrong but they feel it is right.

The fact is, they are hurting their child, causing physical pain to their child. Your feelings as a result of that action are *your* feelings, not something they are doing to you.
But what if they don't have "good" reasons? What if they circ just to look like daddy? Or beat their children? Or raise them to be racist homophobes? Are there any limits of your children's behavior towards their own children that would be enough to make you say "Enough. You may not do this with my support and love."?

If my child turns into a child abuser, then yep, I'm not going to be closely involved in my child's life any more. I highly doubt that will happen, but nobody in my life gets a free pass for child abuse. Nobody. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and condemn everyone else in the world for child abuse but give my own child a free pass.

I also think it's quite interesting how some people on this thread are among the most vociferous on other threads in terms of "Leave your dh! Cut off your relationships with your friends! Never talk to your sibling again!" but would stick by their circing children no matter what....
thismama's Avatar thismama 11:59 PM 01-16-2007
I think our relationships with our children are sacred and different from our other relationships. I think we hold a very special and powerful place in their psyches thru their whole lives and that is a responsibility we must take seriously.
TigerTail's Avatar TigerTail 12:35 AM 01-17-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I think our relationships with our children are sacred and different from our other relationships. I think we hold a very special and powerful place in their psyches thru their whole lives and that is a responsibility we must take seriously.
It's true, sigh.

And beyond my feelings, my will to unconditionally love, etc- if I cut people out of my life, I lose the chance to convince them for the next child. Or their child. Or their... well, you get my drift, my parrot has decided to create a fracas & I cannot put any more words together thoughtfully, so I'll stop.
Fi.'s Avatar Fi. 12:36 AM 01-17-2007
Quote:
Sometimes someone can hurt you so badly that it is just to painful to be around them. The distance may not necessarily punitive.
Exactly. That doesn't make my presence in their life conditional. Sometimes you just CAN'T be around someone - even if it's your kid. Or your own parent. I know there are choices my mothers made that has made me distance myself from her for a period of time. But I guess that means I don't love her unconditionally and her presence in my life is conditional huh?

And as for the jaw drop smiley at my response - why? Because I'd donate to charity instead of willing them as much as originally intended. Anyone who cuts someone else's body for their own purposes doesn't deserve my money, that is a horrible and heinous act not deserving of a reward I'm sorry. I refuse to leave a significant amount of money to someone that I do not respect. Even if that someone is my child. Other reasons I would not leave said child money: drug dealing/using, gambling, stealing, murdering, child abuse/neglect, sibling abuse/neglect.

So yeah, I'd either put the money in trust for their kids or donate it to a genital integirty charity.
TigerTail's Avatar TigerTail 12:39 AM 01-17-2007
And the distance may not be literal, as well. Sometimes distance is a result, not a choice. There are things that my unconditionally-loved children could do that would, in the natural course of events, cause an emotional distance between us, whether I will it or no.

(I gave my bird a cracker, it's quiet here again. )
Fi.'s Avatar Fi. 12:46 AM 01-17-2007
I agree with that as well, I could definitely see my (hypothetical) pro-circ child not wanting to be around me after circing because they feel they might be judged or I might say something they don't like etc al.
moonfirefaery's Avatar moonfirefaery 01:04 AM 01-17-2007
I would feel very hurt and not understand, and I may feel like I did not know my son anymore or had been slapped in the face. It may take me some time to get over it, and it may occasionally cause me feelings of sorrow and inadequacy...but there is no way that I would disown my child or distance myself from him for any reason short of him brutally murdering someone, and even in that case I'm not sure I could turn from him and stop loving him.
Houdini's Avatar Houdini 01:07 AM 01-17-2007
Nope
Greeneyes0506's Avatar Greeneyes0506 01:27 AM 01-17-2007
.
Bartock's Avatar Bartock 01:32 AM 01-17-2007
Well I have no girls, yet i hope to have one someday, 1 is cut 1 is not DH is restoring, so by the time they have kids, the at the rate circ is dropping around here, I hope my cut one restores as well and does not cut his son. We will have the talks when he is old enough to understand, but if my DIL wants to cut, I will do my dam nest to prevent it. And If I had a girl like a lot said I will love my kids no matter what, and all I can do is steer them in the right direction, and hope they chose the right things to do.
BusyMommy's Avatar BusyMommy 01:32 AM 01-17-2007
Nope
DocsNemesis's Avatar DocsNemesis 01:37 AM 01-17-2007
Well, I know I have previously posted that I would indeed, disown my children if they did that to their child. However, as others have said, there is a difference between outright disowning and distancing. So I guess I wouldnt disown them, but I would find it extremely difficult to be around them and I dont think I would look at them the same again.
And I am not afraid to say that while my love is pretty much unconditional for my children, I woudnt stand by them in many cases-like if they raped, murdered, abused, etc. In fact, I would help convict them if I knew something. No one-not even my own children-deserves to get away with something like that. (I'm talking about something like, say, my kid came home with blood all over his/her shirt or something...I would testify that this happened).
However, I will admit that I have kind of a messed up sense of love or something...I hate my mother and couldnt care less what happens to her, so obviously something went wrong there.
I highly doubt any of my grandbabies will be circ'd anyway though concidering that A-they know how harmful it is and know that their dad is very mad about his being circ'd and B-its illegal in Finland!
kldliam's Avatar kldliam 02:10 AM 01-17-2007
Morals, Values and Ethics = Character

The real question here is:

Would you distance yourself from your child if he/she grew up with a/any morals, values or ethics that were extremely disturbing to you. Insert mgm or anything else here that makes you uncomfortable or nauseous.

How about rape?

How about other sick crimes?

How about if they lied, or cheated or stole from people?

How about this?

How about that?

Where do YOU draw the line with your loyalty towards someone you love who lets you down in a very serious way? Everyone has a line so I'd like some honest answers here please. Then perhaps we can all talk about how disturbing YOUR line is.
TigerTail's Avatar TigerTail 02:22 AM 01-17-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocsNemesis View Post
And I am not afraid to say that while my love is pretty much unconditional for my children, I woudnt stand by them in many cases-like if they raped, murdered, abused, etc. In fact, I would help convict them if I knew something. No one-not even my own children-deserves to get away with something like that. (I'm talking about something like, say, my kid came home with blood all over his/her shirt or something...I would testify that this happened).
Oh good gracious, I hope no one thought I'd hide my hypothetical serial killer kid in the basement or something! I wouldn't lie to protect an evil act, that would be a crime against justice.

Love & support don't require deceit- in court, or about genital mutilation.
Snowdrift's Avatar Snowdrift 02:27 AM 01-17-2007
Is it just me, or is this whole business of disowning a little odd? I don't own my child, any more than I own decisions about her genitals. My parents didn't own me, even before they "disowned" me.

Just had to say....
TigerTail's Avatar TigerTail 02:41 AM 01-17-2007
Good point.
~Megan~'s Avatar ~Megan~ 02:45 AM 01-17-2007
I'd always love my children but I'd be just as mad at them as if I found out they abused their children in any other way.
riverscout's Avatar riverscout 02:47 AM 01-17-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed View Post
Is it just me, or is this whole business of disowning a little odd? I don't own my child, any more than I own decisions about her genitals. My parents didn't own me, even before they "disowned" me.

Just had to say....
I understand the sentiment here, and I am not trying to be a smart alec, but one of the definitions of disown is "to repudiate any connection or identification with" which is what I believe the OP meant.
riverscout's Avatar riverscout 02:54 AM 01-17-2007
or maybe she meant "prevent deliberately (as by making a will) from inheriting." Ok now *I* am getting into semantics...I'm off to bed.
frenchie's Avatar frenchie 03:17 AM 01-17-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by DahliaRW View Post
I'd love my children unconditionally, but that being said I could never sit by and approve of them abusing their children. And circ is abuse. So yes, there would be some ramifications to our relationship if they were mistreating their children in any way.
Well said! My love for my child is unconditional, as I stated earlier in this thread. However, I would make my feelings well known about the issue (or any other issues of abuse), and that I'm sure would put a strain on the relationship.
Really, the question is kind of moot to me at this point. My son is intact, and we are very honest with him as why we left him that way. I just can't grasp the thought that he would want to mutilate his own genitals, let alone the genitals of his child. We can't predict the future!
frenchie's Avatar frenchie 03:37 AM 01-17-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I am so disturbed by some of these responses. This is parental love expressed very conditionally. It is controlling. Yes, you think it's valid because in your opinion the issue is so serious, but parents do this kind of thing about issues they think are serious all the time. And the pain it causes the children is so real and so deep nothing can touch or heal it.

It's so ironic, because the people who say they would treat their children this way profess to be interested in protecting the wholeness of their grandbabies' genitals. But I believe our children's spirits are at least as important. Parents wield a lot of power, and the willingness to cut off your children or punish them with distance over *anything* will be something they will be able to feel as a possibility energetically IMO. And it will harm them, whether you actually do it or not.

This thread makes me want to :
This just made me think of my relationship with my own mother. She was very abusive to me growing up. The abuse continued even after I left the house...at that point being emotionaly abusive. I see that she has made some effort, but her habits still remain to an extent...and I don't think she realizes it. No matter what, I still love her. My grandmother was 10x worse to her, than my mom has been to me...yet my mother loves my granny with every fiber of her being. Mind you, my granny admitted to nearly killing my mother as an infant by deliberately smothering her.
I only have one mom...she only has one daughter. We do what we can to get by in our relationship. It's taken a lot to get the healing we've gotten so far...and I patiently wait for more to come.
I love my child with every fiber of my being. He WILL dissapoint me in life. I EXPECT that there will be a time in life when we just don't see eye to eye. I imagine that those times will put a strain on our relationship...but I don't know that I'd have it in me to deliberately seperate myself from my child because I can't agree with him. I think disowning a child is another form of abuse, and it accomplishes nothing but pain.
frenchie's Avatar frenchie 03:40 AM 01-17-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJsMomma View Post
"Shmagma"
I believe "smegma" is the word you're looking for.
TigerTail's Avatar TigerTail 03:50 AM 01-17-2007
I think she was being ironic, which is a good step. Being playful about tense subjects helps lighten the burdens of life. There is nothing so awful we can't make each other laugh while discussing, as long as we are not ever making light of a child's pain (or an adult's sexual mutilation).
frenchie's Avatar frenchie 03:55 AM 01-17-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
I think she was being ironic, which is a good step. Being playful about tense subjects helps lighten the burdens of life. There is nothing so awful we can't make each other laugh while discussing, as long as we are not ever making light of a child's pain (or an adult's sexual mutilation).
Perhaps....I just saw the UD thread with the word "Shmagma". I've encountered loads of people that have called it Schmegma or Schmagma. Either way...it made me LOL!!
AngelBee's Avatar AngelBee 03:58 AM 01-17-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A View Post
My children have my unconditional love.

JJsMomma's Avatar JJsMomma 05:46 AM 01-17-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchie View Post
I believe "smegma" is the word you're looking for.

You know I meant to type it that was right?
trmpetplaya's Avatar trmpetplaya 07:03 AM 01-17-2007
I will always love my children no matter what they do, but I would not mince words one bit if they chose to mutilate their child - male or female. They would know that I consider that act (keeping in mind that they will have all the facts well beforehand) to be nothing less than knowingly sexually assaulting a child. They will know what I think of it well before any babies are born and I don't expect to have much trouble... any girl marrying a son of mine will have to be at least tolerant of an intact penis and my daughters will be taught to have that mama-bear instinct and protect their children from harm.

But if they did... they would certainly get a ginormous piece of my mind... not a pleasant piece either. I couldn't give them a piece of my mind very effectively if I distanced myself from them...

ETA - I'd probably be so upset that my children may choose to distance themselves from me till I cooled off though... it takes a lot to make me mad, but once you do, you better look out!

love and peace.
TigerTail's Avatar TigerTail 10:10 AM 01-17-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJsMomma View Post
You know I meant to type it that was right?
See? I knew you were joking . (If you knew how many times we have to correct it for reals... well, we always have to wonder.)
Bartock's Avatar Bartock 01:39 PM 01-17-2007
I was thinking a lot about this thread last night and it disturbs me. I find it horrible that anyone would even think about disowning their children.
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