Thinking about this issue too much - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-28-2003, 02:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I check this board every day. (Just in case someone needs my wisdom. )

I find odd ways to get circ into a conversation, just so I can tell people it isn't necessary. (Especially people who haven't had kids yet.)

I wonder what it would be like if my dh were intact.

I fantasize about being able to go to D.C. for Genital Integrity Week. (some year)

And I thank God several times a day, every day, that dh and I chose to keep our son intact, even though we had no real information at the time. (We just made the gut decision.)

I can't stop thinking about all of those poor babies.
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Old 05-28-2003, 02:21 AM
 
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There are several of those types of people around here.

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Old 05-28-2003, 03:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I also feel guilty that I haven't been fighting this fight for years--that it took the birth of my own son for me to wake up regarding this issue, KWIM?
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Old 05-28-2003, 03:36 AM
 
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I am so sad I didn't know someone like you when we made this decision for both my ds's. They are both circ'd. We did some research for #1, but ultimatly felt pressured (from family) to do it. It was done in the hospital and I was not there (dh was...but he doesn't remember very much about it...I'm sure he's blocked it out....) with ds #2 we did some more research and I was almost set against not doing it, but again felt pressured by family and society to do it. this time I was with him (as was my mom) and it was horrible. It felt like rape. Seriously. The dr and the nurse kept commenting on what a great block the dr had done (as in anistetic block)......they would say this as he was screaming out in pain!!! My mom and I were about in tears......it felt like such a violation...and so barbaric and unnecessary. I think that if every future parent where to actually see the procedure done, they would no longer have any doubts in their mind about what to do for their son. I am so thankful I no longer have any doubts about where I stand!

Heidi : Married for 15 years, expecting our 8th baby in July!

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Old 05-28-2003, 09:38 AM
 
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I too find myself thinking about it daily even though it is no longer an issue in our house.At least not for the moment.

I find it frustrating that parents still choose to do it despite the information out there.Many are just clouded by stories of problems with intactness that imo are often the direct result of improper care of that intact penis!

When I see the US pictures of the little boys posted on my mommy lists I can't help but think...stay in there as long as possible little one, because you parents are going to put you through a lot of trauma soon after your birth.
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Old 05-28-2003, 02:41 PM
 
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I fantasize about being able to go to D.C. for Genital Integrity Week. (some year)
I went last year. It was very interesting and I have neat pictures from it, but I don't think I'll go every year, nor do I think its worth fantasizing about. It was fun meeting all the "names" though- Paul Fleiss, Frederick Hodges, Marilyn Milos, etc.
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Old 05-28-2003, 04:20 PM
 
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I find myself thinking about circumcision every day too. For me it is a huge issue.
I went for a haircut this morning and there was only one hairdresser there, and I noticed that she was pregnant. I asked if she knew whether the baby was a boy or girl. She didn't know and mentioned that she needed to sign up for birth classes soon. I mentioned that one of my young brothers in law had recently had a boy, and that I was so glad they didn't circ him. She said she didn't know much about it, but that her mother had watched a show where it stated that many men were quite angry that it had been done to them, and that it was not needed, so she wouldn't do it. Yay !! Good for Grandma !! It just made me feel so happy.
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Old 05-29-2003, 05:37 PM
 
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Add me to the list of people who think about this many, many times a day. I am constantly on the lookout for pregnant women and am getting braver about approaching total stangers with my information. I have business cards I give them with the cirp.org web address on them, and I have "Say No to circumcision" and the cirp address on my personal checks- I circle it whenever I write a check. Always looking for a way to bring the subject into a conversation and am just waiting for my siter to mention it again. When first ds was born, she was horrified and let me know that he would be mocked and would look like an anteater. I wasn't very well-versed on speaking about circ yet, so I didn't have much to say, but if she ever mentions it again- LOOK OUT!!!!! The other thing is that I have too much tact than to try to make someone feel bad about their decision so I would probably still temper what I said to her.

We live in a country that allows this type of thing to go on- it amazes me.

Jackie
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Old 05-29-2003, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I noticed my dh's scar for the first time the other day. Amazing I haven't "seen" it before.
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Old 05-30-2003, 12:14 AM
 
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I'm here almost every day too!

When my dh and I were dating, actually very early into dating!, I asked him how he felt about all sorts of parenting issues. When I asked him what he thought about circumcision he said (I"d never do it to a child and frankly, I'd like mine back!" THAT was when I knew he was marrying material!!! I had learned enough about circ to know that I couldn't marry a man who would allow his newborn child to be hurt by such an unnecessary thing.

I am in touch with my birthing class teacher ( a good friend) and we talk about circ frequently. She does not get thru to alot of the people who take her class and it drives her nuts. I'm hoping to compile some information for her to hand out. I think she need some stronger stuff!!

I try to educate where I can. I think if you can plant the seed in the mind before a woman even conceives, it is a good thing. I have talked to all my friends who have yet to have babies about it so when the time comes it isn't such a foreign topic that they can be bullied about.

All of us who are trying to educate really do make a difference to people. We just may not see the results. We have to keep it up!!

"To err is human, to forgive, canine." - Unknown
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Old 05-30-2003, 10:39 AM
 
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Puppy:

We certainly are making a difference. I visit several discussion sites and in the past year, I have seen a change of the tide. There are a lot more people who are open to the discussion because they have been made aware of the issue. That is peer pressure at work and it is the medical professionals begining to get a clue and telling parents.

With the attack on this needless and harmful cosmetic alteration on men's bodies coming from all fronts, the end is near. Sometimes just a single action is sufficient to put an end to it such as when England ended insurance coverage. They were at about the same place we are and are now at about a 1% circumcision rate. That was mostly because of that single action.



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Old 05-30-2003, 09:20 PM
 
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They'll tell two friends ... and they'll tell two friends ... etc. ....

I totally agree it's like opening the conversation for them to continue broaching the topic (even if they don't agree). It's about making this a topic of conversation. It used to be taboo to dispute ANY *medical* claims of any sort at any time. Planting a seed doesn't always produce fruitage at a foresee-able time. Apple trees take (?)three(?) years to produce(?)
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Old 05-31-2003, 09:56 AM
 
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I am so lucky that it is not real common here for non religious or medical reasons..It was never even a consideration to me..I also feel for people that are in that pressured situation..I know a few that felt they had to or have to and I can not tell them enough to please research it, and please go and see one done because it does hurt them...I know they use numbing agents sometimes these days but I personally seen how red, sore it was afterwards..And the parents had to gove pain relif for at least 1 week and they cried everytime they went wee wee..My sons don't.....

Geez it makes me sad and cringe to think of what those babies go through......Keep talking about ladies and gents, hopfully one day it will be fully banned...
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Old 06-01-2003, 12:49 AM
 
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I think about this all the time now too it seems. As a matter of fact, while I was getting my ds to sleep last night I began wondering what it would take for mainstream parents to really understand how unnecessary circ is. (not to mention how painful, traumatic, etc. etc.) And I figured that something was going to have to happen related to money to get enough coverage for most news stations to air---and here's what I thought...I wonder if we'll ever hear of a case of a young man suing doctors or his own parents for taking away part of his body unnecessarily.

Yeah, I know its a really scary thought for some parents and maybe even doctors, but I seriously wonder if we're not too far from seeing something like this happen. Kids have filed for "divorce" from their own parents--I guess anything is possible.

Keep up all the good work in spreading the word and educating so this issue will stop being an issue!!
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Old 06-01-2003, 12:58 AM
 
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It has happened and is happening as we speak- look up William Stowell. There are lawyers who specialize in cricumcision cases.

I too see the tide turning. On another circ board, someone posted a link to a thread where the women were discussing circo on their birth board. The vast majority of the women were NOT circ'ing, and this was a pretty mainstream site. I was sooo pleasantly shocked.

Jackie
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Old 06-01-2003, 04:27 AM
 
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I'm glad I found this board before our son was born. I couldn't imagine circ'ing him now, but we might have if I hadn't. Or maybe not, I couldn't imagine purposely letting something like that be done to him, it was really an instinctual decision! I have also noticed that a majority of the people I know choose not to circ.
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Old 06-01-2003, 11:47 AM
 
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Stowell settled his case out of court with the doctor and hospital. As is usual, the terms of the agreement were not made public. Unfortunately, this got little media coverage. I would have preferred a highly publicised court trial. There was also the Flatt vs. Kantak case that was tried in N. Dakota this year. I also understand that Attorneys for the Rights of the Child is recruiting potential plaintifs on college campuses. It's happening, but it is not going to happen over night. It took us 120 years to get to the turn around point about 10 years ago. But, in that 10 years, the rate has dropped about 1/3 which is amazingly rapid for something like this. I believe when statistics come out that it has dropped below 50%, it will start to end of it's own weight. I would suggest you click on my link at the bottom of this post.

The "Mother Lion" instinct is alive in mothers but the medical profession and myth and urban legend has subverted it. Mothers want to believe that there is no need to cause pain and danger to their children but the myth leads them to believe that circumcision will do this. As more and more mothers learn the truth, the myths will fade away and make it easier for them to believe that circumcision is against their instinct that they naturally believe.




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Old 06-03-2003, 09:52 PM
 
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I too find myself deeply burdened by this issue. It's never far from my mind. I don't even have a son, but I see this as a child welfare issue altogether...not just a gender issue (although it freaks me out with disgust that in other parts of the world young girls are subjected to circumscision as well!!! ).

My sister in law is expecting their first in just a couple of months and will circ if it's a boy. I have given her literature about it and my husband (her older brother) has spoken with her about it but she's not moved by the information. She seems rather insulted we would even bring up the issue to her in the first place. I intend to put in one more "plug" before the birth, but I have to be careful about my approach. I find myself hoping she has a girl.

Circ is nothing short of a society sanctioned torture. I don't think those of us who hold this issue close to our hearts are by any means "off balance." Maybe we're ahead of our times in some way---I like to think/hope that future generations will begin to see the light on a much larger scale than today.

I am blessed with two dds and hope to one day add to our family again. Even though I could honestly not care any less whether we have another girl or a boy...I would enjoy the opportunity of having a son so as to be able to say to friends/family members (especially my father in law) why not for all the money in the world would I elect to have my son circ-ed.

Just the other day I was channel surfing while my dds were napping and I happened across a show (A Baby Story on TLC) where a jewish infant boy was being circ-ed during the jewish ceremony. He screamed in agony while everyone around him chanted. It brought me to tears (which is not an easy thing to do unfortunately). My stomach ached for him.
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Old 06-03-2003, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I now see circ. as being akin to rape. (Deeply violating someone helpless in the most private of areas.) I hope that doesn't offend anyone, but that is the way I see it.

( I didn't say exactly the same as rape; I said akin. ) So it's no wonder this issue disturbs me deeply.

I find myself distancing from anyone who has anything "positive" to say about circ.

I want my MIL to know exactly what she had done to my dh--I want her to have to apologize!! But she never will. It was just so common during that era.

(And she commented that we left ds intact just to be "different." Yep, that's the kind of "different" I like!)

My sis (who doesn't have children yet) is on the fence about circ. It would forever damage my relationship with her if she chose to circ. I can see how/why women leave men over this issue.

My dh reminds me to use positive energy--to not get depressed, but to remember the babies I have saved.
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Old 06-04-2003, 12:06 AM
 
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mamajulie - your input on these boards alone has proven to be of tremendous value to those out there who are questioning the circumcision process. Please do not doubt you have made a difference to others.
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Old 06-04-2003, 02:39 AM
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I thought I was the only one who really felt that strongly (negative) about circumcision. And here I "hear" everyone echo my feelings.
Every day I think: all those babies....
But, I do feel we will make a difference.
I talk to every, and I mean EVERY pregnant woman I see. I am getting bolder!
And it makes me feel good.
Greetings to all of you, let's keep focusing on the agenda.
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Old 06-04-2003, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all of the replies!!


And I want to start a "Dr. Fleiss fan club" -- I love that man!! Even dh is reading his book.
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Old 06-06-2003, 06:17 AM
 
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I haven't visited here because I have been nearly obsessed with this topic. And it hurts because two good friends just had boys and just forcibly removed part of their sons' genitals for no reason and I couldn't do anything to convince them otherwise. I found myself thinking, "it's not a big deal, it happens all the time" just so I won't get sick. Thank you for being as adament. Someone mentioned distancing themselves from circ'ing friends... I am too. I have a hard time being around abusive people, and that's what it is to me. Selfish abuse. They knew, they can't plead ignorance.

I can imagine my son asking, "why do I look different?" and I can simply respond, "I loved you the way you were, I didn't think I had to change you. You were perfect just the way you came." How will they respond?

~Melissa
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Old 06-06-2003, 03:20 PM
 
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I'm so happy I found these boards.I feel the exact same way.I see my nephews and friends children,all circed,and I want to scream. I feel it is like rape as well. My son seems to be the only intact little boy I know. I try to inform other parents,many do not even know they have a choice, or think it absolutley has to be done(like vaccines). My MIL saw him while I was changing his diaper, and was like oh no he's not circed!He'll have to have it done later! We set her straight on that. My SIL used to tell us how when our nephew was born,the hospital forgot to circ him,and they told her she had to bring him back a while later to have it done.She said how he was bleeding,and she was crying for him. She was very young and did not know she had a choice, but I'm wondering if she still would have made the same decision.

Lisa in RI
SAHM to Kasia(5 in 13 days!) ,Gabrion(22 months) ,5 furry feline babies,Muldey,Baba,Silky,Jibbey,and Baby,and wife to Billy

Student mama to one awesome,talented and unique dd,15 and one amazing, sweet and strong ds,12(born with heart defect Tetralogy of Fallot,also on the autism spectrum),9 cats,and 2 gerbils.
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Old 06-06-2003, 04:22 PM
 
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I see some typically American thinking in the above posts. In this case, I'm including Canadians in "Americans." The origins and the history of our continent have formed a people and a philosophy that strongly adheres to high ethical principles and concerns for the rights of our fellow man and woman.

Many other countries don't have these same ethical principles and mete out harsh treatment of their fellow citizens and neighbors as well. The examples of this are numerous such as the leadership of such countries as Russia, Iraq, Cambodia, China and many more and the atrocities they have inflicted on their own people and their enemies.

Americans, on the otherhand, treat prisioners of war to excellent food, humane housing, no torture and many other things to make their captivity as fair as possible. In fact, many WWII prisioners of war who were imprisioned in the states chose to stay here after their release at the end of the war because of the excellent treatment they recieved.

The angst we have at parents who disregard their child's rights and put them through torture for no benefit is typical American behavior. Be proud of the ethical values that have been instilled in you as an American. Do not feel guilty that you have these values for they are what make us great and leaders in the world.





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Old 06-09-2003, 04:43 PM
 
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I've only been to this site a handful of times, but I am glad I did today. Sometimes it feels like I am the only one who feels so strongly against circumcision. I sometimes lie awake at night thinking of the babies who are being strapped down and sliced into every single day. It just makes me MAD and upset and powerless. No one should have to endure such torture and it truly amazes me the ability of mothers to forego their maternal instinct to protect their precious newborn baby from anyone with the intent of cutting their flesh. Cultural norms can block out even the most basic common sense (that is wrong to cut babies!) and I think about it every single day. I am even a moderator on a circumcision debate board and I do think I have made some progress. Most of the procircumcision mom's have left as a result of being backed up against a wall, and rather than admit that the anti's had a point, they got offended and nasty, then left.

It is illegal to operate on an animal without anesthesia, but it's not illegal to do so to human infants.

I am going to be going to nursing school, and once I am an RN, I will NEVER assist in circumcision. NEVER.

This abominaton against children must end. I am amazed and shocked that circumcision was ever even thought of in the first place. It's juist a matter of common sense. If a baby is born with a foreskin then maybe it is there for a reason. DUH!

Okay, sorry, just needed to vent.


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Old 06-09-2003, 05:23 PM
 
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I know the board you are talking about and the individuals. The circumcision suport board at another site has just about died for lack of interest and on another board. the moderator is getting so radical in his support that many parents are seeing through it. Just a year ago, there was strong support for circumcision and now, there is very little anymore.

One woman who is a veternarian was thinking about circumcising her son. She was asked if she would circumcise a dog and what would happen to her if she did. That was enough to bring reality to her desk and plop it down in front of her. I made the assertion that "why shouldn't the dog enjoy all of the health benefits that her son would from being circumcised?" Of course, she knew that the dog would enjoy nothing but pain from the procedure and she quickly realized that her son wouldn't either. She is now very against infant circumcision. If only they were all so easy!





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Old 06-10-2003, 10:36 AM
 
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This is exactly why I come to the Mothering boards. There is alot of support for people who "go against" the norm. People who question the necessity of circumcision, and safety and validity of vaccines, etc. Or breastfeeding, even! It's nice to have company!

Hopefully someday, people won't question whether or not to circ- they just won't! Let's make it the "cultural norm"! (Same with breastfeeding).

It was also my mom who urged me to research circumcision before my first son was born. I did, and after he was born was when I really started. I have met some really neat people through my research of circ, vax, and even breastfeeding. (Though I always knew I'd breastfeed...no one was stopping me.) But I hadn't given circumcision any thoughts because I THOUGHT I was having girls! lol Though if they were girls, of course I wouldn't, so why do it to boys?

I feel sad for little babies who have to endure the pain of circumcision too. BUT, then I also hope that their mommies will learn, as some here already have, that they don't have to circ, and then the next baby -if it's a boy- will not have to have that surgery.

Francine
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Old 06-29-2003, 03:21 AM
 
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I'm due in about 2 months, and although I'm not going to find out what I'm having in advance, we're hoping for a boy, since we had our daughter last June. I am completely against circumcision, no two ways about it. However, my mate is just as adamantly pro-circ. Sometimes I hope I'll just luck out and have another girl and can avoid the whole issue again.

We've fought about this issue so much, we can't even seem to try and have just a "discussion" about why we feel and think the way we do. It always seems to erode down to I don't have a penis, so I don't get to vote. Or, it says to do it in the bible, so he's gettting it done. (Not that we're particularly christian, though we follow the dietary rules of the old test., and keep sabbath on saturday. We don't celebrate any holidays.) To him, it's the rule book; to me it's more historical text.

We even said that we would research support for our different sides, and then talk about it. Well, of course I found all kinds of support for me, but I wasn't looking for him. He hasn't really looked for his side, or if he has, hasn't shown me anything. I know he's read the info I've found, since I saved it into it's own folder in the computer, and brings it up occasionally. But he's totally closed his mind to this, and I'm just about at wits end trying to get him to at least acknowledge my side has validity.

I guess at this point I'm wondering how I can keep him from taking our son to a surgeon. I'm sure someone has to sign consent papers, but I never would. Would he be able to have it done w/o my ok? (Assuming he was able to sneak him out of the house...) Since we aren't legally married, his name won't appear on the birth cert. (unless we take extra steps, which we didn't do for our daughter) so technically he wouldn't even have proof he was the father. Ultimately, is it me that has to ok it? It would be a huge load off of my mind if it was. I probably wouldn't even share that with him, it would just make the situation worse, but I would feel better knowing, "Who has the say-so?"

Any help/support is appreciated muchly.
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Old 06-29-2003, 03:30 AM
 
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It always seems to erode down to I don't have a penis, so I don't get to vote.
But you weren't circ'd and he was, so *you* know what it's like to be intact therefore you have just as much as a say as he does. =)

Quote:
Or, it says to do it in the bible, so he's gettting it done. (Not that we're particularly christian...
Well, if he thinks it's a religous ritual, then he should be taking the baby to a religous leader - just like you probably wouldn't have your dentist baptise your baby. Besides, Christ said He fullfilled the law; if you believe Him, then it's not an issue. I'd guess there isn't going to be any animal sacrifices either for some of the same reasons.

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Would he be able to have it done w/o my ok?
Is he aware that if he did this exactly how upset you'd be? I don't know about the legal side of it, but there would be huge emotional prices to pay if he did this. Does he know how much it would "cost" your family?

Be strong, you can do it.
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