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Old 06-08-2003, 03:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I finally brought up the subject of circumcision w/ my husband today. Our 2 yr old son is circumcised because I didn't question it at the time, even I felt instinctively it was wrong. But I am now 30 wks pregnant and am having another son, and this time I am ADAMENT that noone is going to touch my baby. My husband however is adament that he will be circumcised.

I know there are many posts on this subject, and I have read a lot and got some useful articles to back up my side, but I have some more issues. My husband is not a reader- he will not read an article if I present him with it. I have asked if he will allow a midwife to talk to us about circumcision (so she can help change his mind!!), and he said fair enough, but only if we can also speak to a doctor about it as well. I am afraid that if we speak to an MD he will influence my husbands decision to get our son circed.

Also I have heard that the circumcision will not be performed without both parents consent. Is this true??

I really don't want to fall out with my husband over this. But his two reasons to get the baby circed, 1. it is more hygenic and if we don't get it done I will never change a diaper and 2. intact penises are ugly- don't hold much weight with me.

I should add that my DH is not an emotional person- he is more influenced by facts and figures (unlike me!) . Does anyone have any further info? This is really eating me up- we agreed to both keep an open mind, but the more research I do, the more I am against it (and I KNEW that would happen!!!)
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Old 06-08-2003, 05:46 AM
 
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Well, if he refuses to read anything, I think he is being unreasonable....

The "I won't change a diaper if we don't do it my way" argument is childish too.

Dh and I were originally thinking we would circ if we had a son. Luckily, I came across a book called "40 Reasons Not to Circumcise" or something like that. It is so very well done, so easy/quick to read, so well put together. Each reason has a page - so one page is about looking like kids in the locker room, one page is hygeine, one page is sexual function, etc. There is info to back up each thing. When I read this book (in one sitting) I completely changed my mind. I talked to dh about it and showed him some pages in the book. He was still not sure as he was worried about problems later on and knew two people (out of the zillions we know....) who had circumcisions later in life. This freaked him out. We were still arguing about it but had a dd so mute point.
Before baby #2, our friends had a boy who they chose to be circed. My dh was with the baby's dad and they witnessed some of it (nurse opened the door during procedure and they were right there). My dh came back white as a sheet and told me that day that we were NEVER doing that to any sons we may have!

Good luck convincing him.
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Old 06-08-2003, 10:52 AM
 
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From the research I have done the foreskin protects the penis/UT from infection.As far as the circ penis looking better,shoot no penis is *pretty*.People in this country are conditioned to think the cut penis is better looking.People also used to think head binding created a more attractively shaped skull.
Stick to your guns and protect your future son.You dh has personal issues that he needs to work through in regards to wanting to cut his boys.Best wishes.
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Old 06-08-2003, 12:06 PM
 
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How about a video?

I posted a link to one in Alexander's thread... I have never seen a video, but there is a little 5 minute clip of it which you can download to preview- it seems like it was very professionally produced, and seeing real people speak with their own voices- it is very compelling.

How about a book on tape? You read the articles to him!? (only half kidding)

love Sarah
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Old 06-08-2003, 12:28 PM
 
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Oh... and I forgot to answer your question of consent-

If you refuse the circumcision he can not override it. Sometimes it only takes one consent to make a circumcision happen (for example a single mom) but it only takes one refusal to prevent one from happening. If one parent refuses then there would need to be a court order to proceed.

So if you feel as if you are trying to reason with irrational, you can simply turn the tables and say- there will be no circumcision, I have distributed paperwork to everyone and they are aware of the fact that I will not consent to a circumcision and will sue anyone who would do it without my consent. If you would like to privide evidence to me on why it should be done, I'll be glad to look at it- knock yourself out. Until you do convince me, my refusal stands.

Then take a circumcision refusal form (read here for lots of tips on how to protect your boy)

http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/protection/

In some cases this has actually gone to court (usually involving older children and divorced parents) but it has never been proven that a circumcision is in the child's best interest.

I suspect that if you simply take an affirimative active stance rather than the scurrying to try to prove something to someone who has no interest in learning... that in a matter of days he will throw up his hands and give you the "whatever"

Of course defending your child's genital integrity, and being proud of a decision you had made together would be a heck of a lot nicer- but sometimes these things take longer than a gestation. My husband took years to get from where he was at my pregnancy (adamant) to where he is now (restoring). I think if you try your best to be loving and kind that things will go the most smooth.

Ron Goldman's "Circumcision: the hidden trauma" might give you some insights as well as anything by Alice ******.

Love Sarah
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Old 06-08-2003, 01:27 PM
 
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Your husband has abdicated his responsibility in not researching this very important decision and therefore has no right to have a say in the matter. If he refuses to even read the information you have researched shows that he is afraid you are right and by refusing to read that information shows that he doesn't want to know the truth because he doesn't want his mind to be changed. Forget about talking to the doctor. He will pick and choose among the things the doctor says to support his choice. This will accomplish nothing.

The laws in different states concerning consent are different and in all states it only takes one parent to consent. However, very, very few doctors will perform the procedure if they know that one parent objects. There was one father in New Jersey that got a court decision to prevent the circumcision of his son. The wife of a man who once worked for me got his son circumcised against his consent. I know of one man whose wife conspired with his doctor and he was circumcised against his will during a vasectomy. One doctor told a mother that if she didn't consent to circumcision, he would convince her husband to consent and do the procedure. A man in his 50's was circumcised when he went in for abdominal surgery. The doctor said he had to be circumcised so they could catheterize him. While there are a few unethical doctors, most will not circumcise a baby if they know one parent is against it. Make your stance well known to all medical professionals you come into contact with.

You are certainly keeping an open mind. You have had one son done and have learned and changed your mind. That shows that you have a very open mind. Your husband refuses to research the issue and is playing games trying to get you to agree with him. That is not keeping an open mind. Stick to your guns!




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Old 06-08-2003, 02:00 PM
 
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I have asked if he will allow a midwife to talk to us about circumcision (so she can help change his mind!!), and he said fair enough, but only if we can also speak to a doctor about it as well.
Make two copies of your information. Hand one copy of each to the doc. Make your position perfectly clear as you are doing it.

Reading exerpts out loud to your dh could be a good idea. I read aloud to the back of my x-dh's head whilst his attention was glued to the computer moniter for five years. : He now tells pregnant womyn not to circ.

The diaper-changing threat is immature, unreasonable and ridiculously unfair. Sounds like an emotionally led comment. I would disregard that one until the time comes for him to have the opportunity(s). Of course knowing me I would also agree with this stance. That might throw him off. he-he.
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However, very, very few doctors will perform the procedure if they know that one parent objects.
I was bombarded by many nurses insisting I sign the papers with my now five year old. I am seriously considering obtaining my son's medical records, including the tear-stained circumcision consent form, and suing the be-jeezers out of them.
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Old 06-08-2003, 02:26 PM
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My dh can't believe it when I tell him how many wives here post about their husbands having an issue with this. My dh is circ'ed, but wanted to make the right decision for our son and leave him intact.

Read the book, "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision." There is a good section in there for fathers. (Which, I guess, you'll have to read to him.)

In the meantime, stay adamant about keeping your son intact. Just tell your dh, "It's not happening, period." Then tell EVERYONE--nurses, doctors, etc. You can even buy a "no circumcision" shirt for him at www.nocirc.org
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Old 06-08-2003, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Last Minute
I was bombarded by many nurses insisting I sign the papers with my now five year old. I am seriously considering obtaining my son's medical records, including the tear-stained circumcision consent form, and suing the be-jeezers out of them.



I'm so sorry this happened to you, Last Minute. Fortunately my hospital was better about it and no one bugged me to sign the papers. (Although the pediatrician asked me three times when he could circ him--guess he was a bit greedy for the money!!)
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Old 06-08-2003, 03:13 PM
 
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T (where is that *mad* off-topic emoticon when you need it?)

I've been on the boards for about thirteen months now and it's taken me this long to even begin mentioning my personal experience(s) on circumcision.

I was <ahem> on the toilet with the door open when the nurse ran in and finally insisted on my signature (after EVERYONE heard me and dh loudly arguing numerous times and me telling EVERYONE I would not consent to circumcision). I couldn't move because of the caesarean pain (I can't take Tylenol Three's cuz codeine keeps me awake and makes me hallucinate) and the two week infection I had in the hospital. I was actually having a bowel movement. I bawled my head off whilst signing the paper. I wanted to grab my son and run from there. If I had known five years ago that I didn't HAVE to bend I would have gone the legal route if I had had to. Sorry for trying to hi-jack this thread.
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Old 06-08-2003, 06:41 PM
 
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Thanks for telling your story Laila. I know the thought of it is painful and we appreciate your pro-active role in this discussion board. You are making a difference!




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Old 06-08-2003, 07:09 PM
 
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Thank you both for your kind words. Although my experience was extreme, I pray with all my might no one else ever finds themselves in a similar predicament. It took a lot of tears just to be able to admit here on the board what happened to me, or more-so what happened to my son. I try hard not to cringe each time I see him nekked. I stayed home to have my now two year old because I was avoiding circumcision and also having to be hacked open with the medical establishment's machete's for a second time. The docs were reluctant to allow me to go into labour and only if I succumbed to all their interventions which would have more than likely guaranteed a surgical birth. Dh said "well we'll just have to bring him in to get it done *later*." I began to furiously research the issue looking for truth, facts and reality. And I really did bring up the issues "to the back of his head" as I unraveled them from the twisted web of lies.
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Old 06-08-2003, 09:05 PM
 
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(((((Laila))))) You did the best you could and you were coerced. Shame on those nurses and shame on your x-h. But you are doing so much good here!

Lucy, have you found the websites?

http://www.nocirc.org/

http://noharmm.org/

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/

http://faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DOC/

http://www.circumstitions.com/

I know there are others but these are really good.

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Old 06-08-2003, 09:35 PM
 
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my sons ped/md kept his sons intact...maybe you could find a doc who is/thinks the same??
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Old 06-08-2003, 09:45 PM
 
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Thank you, Jane. It was incredibly emotionally difficult to hit the *send* button on my *off-topic* post. And actually since I have come out and admitted what occurred I have been feeling a sense of healing ... finally. I was too embarrassed to let people know of my naivete. I was ashamed I let this happen instead of protecting my son from something so important. His eyes were glazed over when they brought him back to me quite some time later. Is that how long they tortured him?!? I'll never forget that look. He would not make eye contact with me. I knew what he was like *before*. His eyes had been full of life. He now looked *dead*.

I agree with some of the other posters here who have said a penis is not particularly a visual thing of beauty. But you know what? My baby's intact penis has gotta be one of the *cutest* things I have seen although I must admit it truly took a few months to become accustomed to seeing it that way. At first it looked so *foreign*. I am not used to <ahem> viewing male genitalia in all their varying forms. hehe.
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Old 06-09-2003, 12:29 AM
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Gosh, I couldn't agree more. I have a grandson whose intact penis looks soooooooooo cute. Sooooo natural. Soooooo intact.
But I am not supposed to notice. He is already 5 after all!

His mom warned the dr. and nurses that he would not be cirked. And then she never even let him out of her sight for one minute. They had to come to her room to examine him and everything. There was one time when he had to go to the nursery and she made them wait until she felt well enough to come along.

And I was the one who bathed him very gently for the first time.
But that is another thread.....

Oops! I forgot to post this site for you: An appeal to fathers

www.noharmm.org/appeal.htm
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Old 06-09-2003, 01:42 AM
 
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hi lucy! sorry this is such an issue for you guys. maybe i could have my dh talk to your dh - who knows, it might help?

first, since you're birthing at the birthing center, my guess is that they don't do them there, right? so you won't have to worry about it *right* away. if dh really wanted it done that bad he'd have to take him to the ped himself to get it done. i'd suggest informing your ped in writing that any circing done without your consent would result in legal action. that should take care of the immediate concern of keeping your baby intact.

as to the bigger issue of your dh, if you talk to an MD, try to get one that's AP friendly - i know sybil has a doctor that cosleeps, cloth diapers, etc - maybe you could set up a consult with her? i'd also call any doctor in advance and ask the questions that you would expect your dh to ask - that way you cna find out in advance what kind of answers you will be given. if you aren't happy with the answers (like they say boys should look like their dads etc), then you can pick a different doctor.

if all else fails, let me know and i'll come kick his butt for you.
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Old 06-10-2003, 02:54 PM
 
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1. it is more hygenic and if we don't get it done I will never change a diaper
I have to admit, if my DH had really pushed for the circ, I might have let it go. I gave him a ton of info on why not to do it, and he didn't really want to upset me and/or he trusted my research so it wasn't done. But I did mentally plan to refuse diaper changes if my son was cut. Anyho... For his argument, what's so hygenic about having an open wound where a baby pees and poos? Doesn't sound very clean to me. And would he shave off the kid's head and pull out the teeth so he wouldn't have to teach him to use shampoo and toothpaste? Or does he think boys are too stupid to take care of their own bodies?

Quote:
2. intact penises are ugly
So... how many penis's has he examined? =) If he doesn't like the baby's nose and thinks that's ugly, would he take the kid into a plastic surgeon?

Maybe that can help him see the slippery slope circ is, and how the "logic" for it just doesn't stand up.

Good luck!
~Melissa
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Old 06-10-2003, 07:57 PM
 
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lucy,

Aren't you in in the San Diego area? Maybe try Dr Sear's. I have read material of his saying it is unnecissary and purely cosmetic. He might be able to help you. Otherwise go to the finding your tribe part of this and locate other San Diego mommies and simply say"Looking for a foreskin friendly ped in San Diego." Mommies will come.I did it for a Pasadena search and found 3 and Dr Fleiss.I think SanDiego is even more progressive than LA. I'll try to call a freind who is a neonatal nurse in San Diego and ask for her advice. She hates circ.
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Old 06-11-2003, 10:30 PM
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Here is a good one for your DH

An appeal to new fathers
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Old 06-11-2003, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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well, my update on the subject is, DH no longer wants to circ!!! I knew he would see it my way in the end I did some research and read him some info on how easy it is to look after an intact penis. I also told him how they perform the circumcision. It was so easy- he now says "no way", and has even persuaded his co-workers wife (who is pregnant with twins- one boy) not to circ as well. He is also really excited about cloth diapers and is taking one into work to show his co-worker. So I would like to say, I am married to the best man in the world!!!!
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Old 06-12-2003, 12:32 AM
 
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yay lucy!!!! and yay for little boy ont he way!
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Old 06-12-2003, 12:49 AM
 
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I'm so happy for you !!
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