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Old 05-14-2007, 11:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jami77 View Post
To the "wolves"
on this page, I haven't replied as of yet b/c I have been busy being a "horrible" mother as some of you accused me of, and helping my husband with his mother's estate business, as she has just passed. You are all so sensitive to others!
And I did read the rules of posting; its MY opinion. The decision my husband and I made was not ROUTINE and if I hadn't stood by my decision would I have written it here? Some of your replies have contained nothing but venom and disdain.
When my friend said she found a website that agreed with many of my ideas about childrearing, I was so excited. I wasn't aware that to participate and be "accepted" you had to agree with everyone else, on every issue.
I might one day regret my decision, and yeah, my son might want to "sue" me as one of you suggested so kindly(again, about a woman you don't personally know). If he does, it will be between my son a I.
I am a nurse, I am educated, I did my research. I have seen first hand some things that led me to my decision, which I won't bother typing, b/c none of you would be receptive to listening to my different views.
And this will probably be my "THIRD" and last post because this is a sorority I don't think I want to be a part of. GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL.
Ok, sorry that your mother-in-law passed, not that I see what that has to do with the thread, how were we supposed to know that?

As for "things firsthand that you won't bother typing" you probably don't want to type them because you know they can and will be easily refuted.

If you have some evidence that is so compelling that lead you to circ and be for circing, you would say it.

People are "wolves" because they're against circ? Yet, you came into a forum called "The Case Against Circumcision". Were you expecting people to greet you with confetti and roll out the red carpet when you stated you liked cutting baby boys' penises? Come on.
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Old 05-14-2007, 11:39 PM
 
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what, the 'hands off children's genitals' sorority? works for me.
I'm in!

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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Old 05-14-2007, 11:52 PM
 
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As for "things firsthand that you won't bother typing" you probably don't want to type them because you know they can and will be easily refuted.

If you have some evidence that is so compelling that lead you to circ and be for circing, you would say it.
I agree with this. Same old same old when it comes to this topic. "I know a guy" "i saw a kid" "my brother's cousin's former roomate's girlfriend babysat this kid"....

etcetc.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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Old 05-15-2007, 12:18 AM
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Jami77, I'm sorry I said what I said about you. I had no right to assume why you didn't post; it was not my place to make this kind of comments (that you have no potential…). I’m sorry. Now I feel very bad about it especially since I’m not sure if you read this apology of mine or not. If you do, I’d appreciate very much if you let me know you did.

jami77, I do believe that if you are a nurse you indeed could see some nasty things. However, I also do believe with all my heart that most of them were exactly because of doctors/nurses/child care workers ignorance on the issue of foreskin.
Please read this post http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=129378 . This is a warning to parents of intact children. The truth is that 99% of doctors in the US are so uneducated on the issue that they would retract (or at least pull back to see how far it goes) foreskin LONG before it gets retractable on it's own. Even the slightest pull back is dangerous as it can create micro tears allowing infection in. THIS IS EXACTLY what usually cases the problem. Alot of doctors go beyond that being (I don't even have strong enough words to call it) ridiculously ignorant and uneducated about intact penises. They would actually suggest parents to retract and clean underneath the foreskin : : ! Poor babies! Of course it leads to infections, scaring, etc (you name it!). While the rest of intact world (85% of the world is intact!) has only less than 1% of medically necessary circ rate, in the US it's over 10%! : Do Americans have different penises?! Of course not, but they do have doctors/nurses/people that are way too ignorant and misinformed about the issue.

I'm from russia. A country where circ is (thanks god!) UNHEARD of. Almost all my friends/ex-co-workers have boys. And of course everyone had fathers, some have brothers, husbands, boyfriends; I have a father, brother, son, had ex-boyfriends, ex-husband who are intact. I SWEAR that before I came to the US at the age of 26 I have NEVER even heard about boys/guys having UTI or yeast infection on their penis. I have always thought that this is something that only women have to deal with and therefore, was envying men tremendously as I did have UTI and yeast problems in the past . And we discussed this with my friends number of times and they also were under the same impression (and I repeat again that almost all of my friends/co-workers had sons).

just wanted to let you know...
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Old 05-15-2007, 01:54 AM
 
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what, the 'hands off children's genitals' sorority? works for me.
Can I be on the Board!!!

jami I am sorry for your loss but I can't really blame you for iggnorace, the whole medical field as a whole here in the states is faulty when it comes to circ and it is unfair to you, other profesionals, and helpless little boys and expecting families. I really hope that you might look into other med journals from overseas ( England would be a great start) to get a differing MEDICAL opinion, look, and prespective other than us crazy hippies trying to save all the forskins. ( which we will never stop doing!) I can understand if you a medically driven person, I used to be, but I have a different view of things now. I don't excpect you to make that change but PLEASE look into other journals and volumes to get a more full circle look and eduacation on this.
Just because you are taught a certain way doesn't make it right.: Consider it a CEC

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Old 05-15-2007, 02:01 AM
 
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(how do you not hear about Marilyn Milos when you are in the nursing profession? : I'm sorry, but I expect medical professionals to give this more thought than run-of-the-mill lay mom, and put on their critical-thinking caps.)

i was joking about the sorority; it's not a club you get in by being one of the cool girls. it's not a 'hippie' thing. it's just not cutting off other people's genitals, no more no less. pretty reasonable standards, we have here.
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Old 05-15-2007, 04:31 AM
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...other than us crazy hippies trying to save all the forskins...
I don't regard myself as a hippy at all (no offends to hippies ). "Thinking mother" would describe me much more accurately. As any other person I've done the whole bunch of mistakes during my still pretty short motherhood (ultrasounds, vaccinations with my first child, etc.). I regret about them deeply and I myself for this nearly every day. I keep telling myself that I should have known better…but I didn’t. But I'm learning something new every day and trying to be a better mom this way. No one is perfect and we all make mistakes, but it's important to continue learning (keeping open mind), to have courage to admit mistakes and try to make better choices from that point on...
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Old 05-15-2007, 05:40 AM
 
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Oh For Crying Out Loud.

ALL NURSES AND DOCTORS ON THIS BOARD.

Please for the love all, give me 101 what is so different in American penises compared to rest of the world!

Please explain to me why nurses and doctors in USA see rotten foreskins, children in agony and sick and dying because they have normal genitals? Why this happens in USA but not anywhere else.

PLEASE, those who have medical degree and see all the children suffering due to normal genitals explain to me why the rest of the world do not have any of these 'nasty things'?

I'm sure that I hear the crickets chirping one more.

Everytime I ask this - suddenly the posters who claim that foreskin is the cause of all evil disappear.

funny that.

- A Wolf From Scandinavia -
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Old 05-15-2007, 08:17 AM
 
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I'm not a hippie either, lol.

I just consider genital mutilation for girls and boys barbaric, and it should be made illegal.

If you're a nurse of course you see all the worst problems (apparently caused in the US by improper care - you wouldn't see it if you worked in Europe), after all, the vast majority that don't have a problem don't come to hospital, but I put it to you, if you were a nurse that worked in oncology, and saw all the women with breast cancer and nursed them through all the suffering and death that that entails, would you cut out your daughter's breast buds too, as a baby, to save her from all that and "because she won't remember it"?

If not, why not? What is so special about a foreskin that it has to be amputated at birth? At least the "infections" a boy gets on his genitals are the same as the ones a girl gets, and are curable, what would you cut off your daughter to prevent thrush and utis?

If you worked in an attorney's office (as someone on this board does) and saw all the lawsuits against hospitals for buried penis, botched circs, and all kinds of damage that circ causes (and is hushed up) would that have influenced your decision? How about speaking to the men who have been severely damaged (painful, tight, erections, hair on the shaft, severe scarring), and their partners?

A substantial number of men will never have children because of what their parents "chose", and you know what? Half the time the parent knows nothing of the damage, because by the time the child becomes a man, talking to his mother about his penis is a thing of the distant past. One day YOUR children may be suffering, as so many do, in silence - how do you feel about that?

You did your "research" but you weren't objective, you saw only the lies and myths which confirmed what you wanted to do anyway, because of cultural programming. No-one could read the research objectively and come away thinking that strapping a baby down, ripping, cutting, and crushing his flesh (without anaesthetic i might add) with the result of depriving a man of his whole genitals is a good thing.

I also think it's amazing that you come to a forum called "The Case Against Circumcision" make a pro-circ post and expect any kind of validation or understanding. I totally fail to see how attachment parenting can possibly include DE-taching part of the baby's body.

*A wolf from England* GROWL
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Old 05-15-2007, 01:25 PM
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I'm not a hippie either, lol.

I just consider genital mutilation for girls and boys barbaric, and it should be made illegal...
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Old 05-15-2007, 02:38 PM
 
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Back to the OP...

Just one suggestion, whatever route you do go (if you do say anything more than "ask your mom"), please do NOT say "cut the tip of the penis off"--use the proper term for what is removed instead (foreskin).
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Old 05-15-2007, 03:04 PM
 
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Actually in a baby the foreskin IS the tip of the penis - the glans and foreskin are fused and are essentially considered one structure.
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Old 05-15-2007, 04:59 PM
 
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Oh For Crying Out Loud.

ALL NURSES AND DOCTORS ON THIS BOARD.

Please for the love all, give me 101 what is so different in American penises compared to rest of the world!

Please explain to me why nurses and doctors in USA see rotten foreskins, children in agony and sick and dying because they have normal genitals? Why this happens in USA but not anywhere else.

PLEASE, those who have medical degree and see all the children suffering due to normal genitals explain to me why the rest of the world do not have any of these 'nasty things'?

I'm sure that I hear the crickets chirping one more.

Everytime I ask this - suddenly the posters who claim that foreskin is the cause of all evil disappear.

funny that.

- A Wolf From Scandinavia -
I'm not a nurse or a doctor, but I can answer your question...

This is why:
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My son required neurosurgery last week. When I first saw him afterwards, I noticed that not only had he been forcibly retracted (the foreskin was red and inflamed,) but there were four tears in it, two on each side. The miraculous tissue has already healed the tearing. The redness is gone; it's back to it's normal appearance.

I had to learn how to cath him. The third time he was cathed in front of me, I watched the nurse retract to the glans, and I burst out sobbing . I wish I had been an angry tigress, but I had gone without sleep for three days by that point. The first two times, the nurse on duty did a great job (and wasn't an American, co-incidence?) so I had my guard down. When it was time to do it myself, I did say firmly "Please don't push back the foreskin. I will not be doing that." The nurse complied, but reported ME to the doctor on duty. I was subsequently "counselled" as to the "proper care and function of the foreskin." I had to listen to that in order to leave without leaving AMA. I did say my source of information was his pediatrician. Ahem. Let me get this out in a safe forum:

: : :

When I cath him, he just looks at me nonchalantly, as if it's no big deal. When the American nurse cath'ed him, he screamed. Fortunately, he lives with ME, and now I can always insist on doing it myself. Now, time to write letters about the abusive ignorance of the pediatric specialists in a pediatric hospital.
This is from another thread posted just today.

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Old 05-15-2007, 05:54 PM
 
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Actually in a baby the foreskin IS the tip of the penis - the glans and foreskin are fused and are essentially considered one structure.
Yes, but they are technically two different parts even though fused at first--they do not stay fused. Furthermore, my understanding of circ is that they do not (at least not usually) just cut off the tip of the foreskin that is not fused, but actually peel off and cut away the foreskin. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

The point is, however, that there is a very different impact on the child from saying--TO A YOUNG BOY (especially a circ'd boy who has never seen an intact penis before)--"cut off the tip of the penis" vs. "cut off the foreskin".

If there is not an accompanying in-depth explanation of anatomy (which IMO may not be appropriate when coming from a non-parent adult), the first is most likely much more traumatic than the second.

Just what kind of mental image do (generic) you think that the first will produce for a young boy such as the one in the OP, especially given his probable lack of knowledge of whole male anatomy?

There is no need to semantically (or otherwise) drive home the barbarism of the practice to an innocent bystander (who was also possibly a victim of the practice) at such a young age.

He didn't chose to do that, and is just a young, curious boy. And, the idea itself is horrifying enough without opening the door even wider to scary young-boy-imagining.

Do you see what I mean? (Of course, this is all when the answer is going to be one sentence or two. If a detailed explanation is going to be given, the phrasing might be less of an issue...)
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Old 05-15-2007, 06:18 PM
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Yes, but they are technically two different parts even though fused at first--they do not stay fused. Furthermore, my understanding of circ is that they do not (at least not usually) just cut off the tip of the foreskin that is not fused, but actually peel off and cut away the foreskin. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

The point is, however, that there is a very different impact on the child from saying--TO A YOUNG BOY (especially a circ'd boy who has never seen an intact penis before)--"cut off the tip of the penis" vs. "cut off the foreskin".

If there is not an accompanying in-depth explanation of anatomy (which IMO may not be appropriate when coming from a non-parent adult), the first is most likely much more traumatic than the second.

Just what kind of mental image do (generic) you think that the first will produce for a young boy such as the one in the OP, especially given his probable lack of knowledge of whole male anatomy?

There is no need to semantically (or otherwise) drive home the barbarism of the practice to an innocent bystander (who was also possibly a victim of the practice) at such a young age.

He didn't chose to do that, and is just a young, curious boy. And, the idea itself is horrifying enough without opening the door even wider to scary young-boy-imagining.

Do you see what I mean? (Of course, this is all when the answer is going to be one sentence or two. If a detailed explanation is going to be given, the phrasing might be less of an issue...)

Yes, he is a victim. BUT if we just 'wrap the whole thing in honey' for kids sake, they will just buy this "it's healthier and better and you got a good deal by getting it done to you as a baby" crap that parents will feed them. This way those boys will grow up and mutilate their kids and their parents will get away with this and never be held responsible for amputating a very important and the most sensitive part of their sons' penises.
It really is a very hard situation, indeed. But this child (and any other mutilated boy, for that matter) has to learn the truth vs. so common bs about circ. Only this can stop this crazy circle of mutilation, IMO.
Yulia.
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Old 05-15-2007, 06:32 PM
 
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Yes, but when a child (not your own) asks, I still think that saying something simple is more than enough, and that at that age, there is no need to add to the horror.

IT IS HORRIFYING ENOUGH without adding inaccurate mental images (cutting off the glans or more).

Also, saying cut off the tip of the penis does not let the boy know that there is such a thing as a foreskin, and that all boys are normally born with one. (A circ'd man is not missing the tip of his penis, but his foreskin.)
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Old 05-16-2007, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I would have offered to pay her NOT to.
she didnt care if it was done or not done no amount of money would of stopped her

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People are "wolves" because they're against circ? Yet, you came into a forum called "The Case Against Circumcision". Were you expecting people to greet you with confetti and roll out the red carpet when you stated you liked cutting baby boys' penises? Come on.


in my eyes if he grows up and wants to have it removed he can but he can never get it back and then he will be alseep and drugs so no pain and he can take care of himself let your child make their own choices


back to my op kids being kids my dd seen his penis asked me why it looks weird (never seeing a cut one) but cute i told her that his mom took him to the dc and they cut his foreskin off she already knew about cutting but now she wanted to see the video she knows i have watched them so we watched a video of it with no sound on i cant take the crying i know her she will speak if it is brought up she is a year younger but she is very past her age in smarts
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Old 05-17-2007, 09:12 AM
 
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I would have offered to pay her NOT to.
she didnt care if it was done or not done no amount of money would of stopped her
If she is so neutral to it, perhaps there is something she is not neutral to -- something she really wants -- that costs money. Perhaps an offer like this might have worked: "I will give you X amount of money towards Y that I know you really want if you refuse the circ."

Leigh, mama to Rostislav homeborn Aug 9 2007, and Oksana homeborn Feb 24 2011.
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Old 05-17-2007, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If she is so neutral to it, perhaps there is something she is not neutral to -- something she really wants -- that costs money. Perhaps an offer like this might have worked: "I will give you X amount of money towards Y that I know you really want if you refuse the circ."
nope never she is just hate to say it stupid some times she earns the blond title but i hope the future ones will be different she had her dd and ds before i had my dd and ds and she has married a different person(dont know cut or natural) so i hope that this one is the only one who has to live with this but i will deal with that when it comes to that point part of me just prays she has girls but i will talk till i am blue in the face and keep going till i pray not does it again i hope seeing my son and knowing about it changes her thinking on it
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Old 05-17-2007, 05:57 PM
 
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I remember seeing a cut boy for the first time when I was 6. My brothers are intact and so are my best friends brothers, but this was a kid that my aunt was babysitting. When I first saw him I was horrified! I thought something was awfully wrong with him! it looked so much shorter than any of the ones I had seen before and red (this was a boy about 17 months). I asked what was wrong with him and my aunt said " oh he is circumsized and your brothers aren't" I was very confused and just said "oh". I had always heard about circumsision in church and thought that they just kind of scraped the front of the penis a little (like when you scrape your knee). I had no idea what a glans was until I was in high school and saw my (circumsized)boyfriend naked for the first time. That was awkward to say the least . Then I really didn't know what to do with it because to tell you the truth I was very confused as to why there was nothing there to retract (sorry, but I learned about sex from seeing farm animals and reading world book encyclopedia as my parents were not very talkative about it). And yeah, I figured it out pretty fast, but it was still weird.
Later on when my son was born I asked my brother how he felt about being left intact (part of my decision to leave my son intact) and he said "well it would have helped if someone had explained it too me instead of just leaving it (the topic that is) alone!" but that he is very glad he was left intact.

I think if I had to answer that question from any child mine, friends or others, I would say that "my son was born this way just like you were, but your parents decided they wanted the doctor to cut the cover part off of yours, if you want to know why you will have to ask them."
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Old 05-20-2007, 12:44 AM
 
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The problem with this is that that line of thinking is never right regardless of what side you are on. What will the circ'd boy do when he has children, circ them to look like him? The only way to end circ is to tell the truth.

Laura
I agree. I think it is important that they know that cutting and altering another persons body parts is wrong. I would tell them the truth, that we know know that circumcision is wrong, that we now know better, but some people didnt know any better. We shouldnt make it seem as though there is nothing wrong with it, and have them grow up thinking its okay to cut off a part of another persons body to make them look like you is acceptable. People who did circumcise their children I would say made a mistake and didnt fully understand why what they were doing was wrong.
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Old 05-20-2007, 04:13 AM
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I agree. I think it is important that they know that cutting and altering another persons body parts is wrong. I would tell them the truth, that we know know that circumcision is wrong, that we now know better, but some people didnt know any better. We shouldnt make it seem as though there is nothing wrong with it, and have them grow up thinking its okay to cut off a part of another persons body to make them look like you is acceptable. People who did circumcise their children I would say made a mistake and didnt fully understand why what they were doing was wrong.
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Old 05-20-2007, 06:21 AM
 
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I really doubt saying something that might make him feel bad about himself or insecure about his penis will make him an intactivist. Just give him a foundation, and in time, he'll know what to do with it.

Julia
dd 1
I agree....more lasting would be the negative comment about his penis "not being right".....I'd stay away from the politics at this age....and just say, "ask your mother." or something like, "all penises look different.".....
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Old 05-20-2007, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mm72873 View Post
I agree....more lasting would be the negative comment about his penis "not being right".....I'd stay away from the politics at this age....and just say, "ask your mother." or something like, "all penises look different.".....
Yea, right. And his mom will feed him the whole load of crap of how it's better, healthier, cuter (girls like that, you'd be made fun of otherwise), etc. And this boy will go though this life (like most men do) believing this crap (as everyone naturally trusts his mom and believe that she would never allow anything bad to be done to him, so there must be some really good reason for it) and mutilating his sons : .
It’s time to tell the truth! Period! This blunt, unsweetened, uncovered truth!
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Old 05-20-2007, 01:32 PM
 
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Yes, but it's not your child to indoctrinate. I am a teacher and each child comes to school with their parent's set of beliefs, some I agree with some I don't. I believe very strongly against certain things, but it's not my child to educate. If another person told my child somehting on his body was "wrong" I would be absolutely livid.
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Old 05-20-2007, 01:49 PM
 
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What about: this is how you and ALL boys look when they are born, ask your mom and dad what happened.

Living DAIRY AND GLUTEN FREE for my SPD and Aspergers Little Man.
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Old 05-20-2007, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm72873 View Post
Yes, but it's not your child to indoctrinate. I am a teacher and each child comes to school with their parent's set of beliefs, some I agree with some I don't. I believe very strongly against certain things, but it's not my child to educate. If another person told my child somehting on his body was "wrong" I would be absolutely livid.
Sorry for being blunt but if you mutilated your child and I tell him the truth the last thing I'd care is you being livid! Don't you see, this is EXACTLY why this mutilation going on and on in circles, because people who know the truth don't say it minding thier own busuness or being too afraid to make other people feel bad/guilty/livid/etc...
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Old 05-20-2007, 04:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NamastePlatypus View Post
What about: this is how you and ALL boys look when they are born, ask your mom and dad what happened.
I like that one! I think this is the one I would go with.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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Old 05-20-2007, 06:27 PM
 
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I see you feel strongly about this. I feel strongly about gay marriage rights, I feel strongly about ending the war, I feel strongly about Palestinian rights...and on and on and on. I would not go around trying to attack these issues by changing a KID's mind and making him feel bad about his body. You could start an parent education group, you could hand out leaflets.....but to make a child feel that his body is "damaged" for some irriversable mistake his parents made has life-long consequences.

Miriam
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Old 05-20-2007, 08:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NamastePlatypus
What about: this is how you and ALL boys look when they are born, ask your mom and dad what happened.

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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
I like that one! I think this is the one I would go with.
Ditto. It's short, to the point. The only downside is the circumcising mom could still fill her son's head w/ lies. It at least informs him of the way boys' penises look like at birth.
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