ok, what do you do when a friend is informed and still wants to circ? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 56 Old 05-22-2007, 07:04 PM
 
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Sadly, she wont' find that information in the LLL materials. :
unless she has access to the older material from before it was censored.
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#32 of 56 Old 05-22-2007, 11:21 PM
 
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My suspition is that she can't face explaining to DS1 why she allowed this to happen to him, and is hoping that by circ'ing DS2 as well they will all live out the rest of their lives in denile.
So how do you get past this issue with someone...
Just me but I feel IF I made a mistake with #1 and later learned of the mistake I had made in ignorance than after learning all the information I may change my views with all children born after the first. I've done this with vaccination, discipline technique's, carseat safety and other issues. The more I learn the more my mothering evolves. Thankfully, I have never circ'd any of my children. How does that mistake some how justify, in the minds of some, repeating with further children especially if feeling guilt already for doing this to one child? I just trying to understand.

: I'm currently trying my hardest to talk my youngest sister out of circ'ing. She is currently pregnant and though we don't know the gender yet (I'm hoping she has a girl; she's hoping for a boy) she fully intends to mutilate any boy's she has. It totally makes me sick! I have given her a slew of information sent her video links - she argues. She is now saying it's up to her dh... he will go along with her wishes on this subject. She has circ'd both of her other boys so if it's a boy there is virtually no chance of me changing her mind. :
She finds out the gender in mid July...
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#33 of 56 Old 05-23-2007, 12:12 AM
 
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Well... I know a family with four circumcised boys and one intact boy and none of the older ones even noticed that the youngest one was different, so I would use them as an example if someone had already circumcised one or more sons. I would also bring up the fact that it's easier to explain to the circumcised one that you learned that it wasn't necessary for his little brother than to explain to the younger one that you did it even though you knew better so that he would "match" his older brother. Especially if the younger one ended up with serious complications due to his circumcision... :

love and peace.

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: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#34 of 56 Old 05-23-2007, 01:08 AM
 
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Yup.

And real women don't allow their husbands to mutilate their children.
Wow.......gave me goosebumps.
Very nice wording.
And for the record...she so did not read all the lit. and then make an informed decision. BS.
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#35 of 56 Old 05-23-2007, 06:40 PM
 
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Mama moose - I feel for you. Such a difficult situation.

I agree with eepster - that this could easily be about not wanting to acknowledge the harm caused to ds1. That is difficult for any mother to come to terms with. Perhaps somehow addressing that issue (as others have suggested) would help.

Have you tried with the father at all? If it really is an issue of 'matching daddy' (as she says), then perhaps the Penn & Teller video would be a good place to start with them? Just an idea...
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#36 of 56 Old 05-23-2007, 07:05 PM
 
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It must be frustrating when something you feel so strongly about can ruin a friendship. Most of my friends are my coworkers--we're all a bunch of mid-twenties to mid-thirties women with children ranging from 0-6 (and one more surprise baby due in July who if a boy will get to keep his foreskin just like his big brother!) Only one of them circ'd her two boys. Even before her first was born, people tried to talk her out of it. As smart and "natural" (vegetarian for awhile, BF, co-sleep, CD, H20 birth) as she seems, she still insisted on circing her boys. She said it was because of things she saw when she was a pedi ICU nurse and I think her DH had a lot of say in the matter as well. I think because her first didn't seem bothered by the procedure she didn't think twice about doing it to her second. However, she seemed to regret it more after her second because her milk came in sooner and he cried every time he peed until it healed. I've thought a lot about my friendship with her. Do I hate her? No. Do I hate what she knowingly did? Absolutely. Have I been able to look past her choices? For the most part. Aside from our drasticly different views on circumcision, I value our friendship. We share many of the same joys and challenges that come with raising two boys. What saddens me the most, is that her boys are in the minority when we all get together. I feel bad for them that they are the ones who are different from all the rest. Will it be more important for them to "match their daddy" or to match their friends? Their questions will rest with her. I'm sure this summer we will have beach days and I hope that seeing all the other little boys perfectly unscarred will make her question her choice. All I know is that I can sleep at night knowing that I will never have to try to explain to my children why I thought it would be okay to slice off a part of their penis. Rather than ending friendships with everyone who circs, I hope that by them seeing that my boys are not "dirty" and do not have problems with their whole penises, that it will give them an opportunity to see real penises as they were intended to be (during diaper changes etc, my kids don't run around naked...much!). Sadly, I never saw a real intact penis until I was in nursing school and I wan't better for the next generation!

Laura...part-time OB nurse, and full-time mom to two sweet boysnocirc.gifintactlact.gif
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#37 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 02:54 PM
 
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I'm well aware that the internet is for slandering others anonymously, so to you I must say, Bravo/a!

None of you all know me, and yet you are able to call me an abusive parent, a rapist, a monster, et all. You know about my insecurities and my ego, and my need for my child to 'look like daddy' to make up for my yearning for my lost foreskin.

So for nailing someone you dont know, again, bravo/a.

But maybe you should know a little about me:

I worried tons about whether to circ or not circ. I was (am) worried about hyperspadia. I felt pushed in either direction concerning circ when my son was born, and felt like there was no right answer (still do).

Asked around for advice and support to not circ, but didnt get any at that time. The closest I came was my friend who is circ, but his brother is not. The friend chose not to circ, and told me if his son ever asked advice about being non-circ, he would say to talk to his brother.

Just a note: if I was to come to this site looking for support to not circ'ing when I was, this thread would not have been the place. So f'n nasty stuff that made me feel like poop and that I can do no good.

I do feel like I made the wrong choice with my first son. I watched the Penn and Teller BullS**t show and felt even worse afterwards. But the issue I am having now is that I feel I dont have the words/advice to give my upcoming son about why he is not circ'd while my first son is. I know I'll never 'have' the words until the situation comes up, and coming to this site isn't helping me any. I feel attacked (now I've waited two weeks to write anything back so I could cool down, but I still feel attacked). I feel like I was being judged by people who knew nothing about me. I was made to feel like an a-hole.

And if that was your intention with your responses, then congrats!
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#38 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 03:02 PM
 
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Momma, if you are still there, here is how I would deal with circing one and not the other.

"When you were a baby, it was thought that taking off the foreskin was the right thing to do. But then doctors decided that we should leave it on." (rough thoughts I would probably change this but this is off the top of my head )

Modify that depending on the son you are talking to and add in comfort for him that there is nothing wrong with him for being circumcised or not circumcised and that you went with what you thought was right with the information you had. If they are a bit older when you talk about it, you could talk about tonsils...my husband, for example, had his taken out as routine after he had a few sore throats but we don't do that anymore to little boys.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#39 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 03:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by phsargent View Post
I'm well aware that the internet is for slandering others anonymously, so to you I must say, Bravo/a!

None of you all know me, and yet you are able to call me an abusive parent, a rapist, a monster, et all. You know about my insecurities and my ego, and my need for my child to 'look like daddy' to make up for my yearning for my lost foreskin.

So for nailing someone you dont know, again, bravo/a.

But maybe you should know a little about me:

I worried tons about whether to circ or not circ. I was (am) worried about hyperspadia. I felt pushed in either direction concerning circ when my son was born, and felt like there was no right answer (still do).

Asked around for advice and support to not circ, but didnt get any at that time. The closest I came was my friend who is circ, but his brother is not. The friend chose not to circ, and told me if his son ever asked advice about being non-circ, he would say to talk to his brother.

Just a note: if I was to come to this site looking for support to not circ'ing when I was, this thread would not have been the place. So f'n nasty stuff that made me feel like poop and that I can do no good.

I do feel like I made the wrong choice with my first son. I watched the Penn and Teller BullS**t show and felt even worse afterwards. But the issue I am having now is that I feel I dont have the words/advice to give my upcoming son about why he is not circ'd while my first son is. I know I'll never 'have' the words until the situation comes up, and coming to this site isn't helping me any. I feel attacked (now I've waited two weeks to write anything back so I could cool down, but I still feel attacked). I feel like I was being judged by people who knew nothing about me. I was made to feel like an a-hole.

And if that was your intention with your responses, then congrats!
I'm a bit confused. : Who are you? The mama the OP was talking about?

Mama to 5 busy bees (12, 9, 7, 3, 2) and expecting #6 June/2014

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#40 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 03:07 PM
 
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I think she is the person the OP was referring to, (maybe?)

But it seems she left her son intact (or will?) and is now wondering what to tell the sons when/if they talk about being different.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#41 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 03:12 PM
 
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I'm well aware that the internet is for slandering others anonymously, so to you I must say, Bravo/a!

None of you all know me, and yet you are able to call me an abusive parent, a rapist, a monster, et all. You know about my insecurities and my ego, and my need for my child to 'look like daddy' to make up for my yearning for my lost foreskin.

So for nailing someone you dont know, again, bravo/a.

But maybe you should know a little about me:

I worried tons about whether to circ or not circ. I was (am) worried about hyperspadia. I felt pushed in either direction concerning circ when my son was born, and felt like there was no right answer (still do).

Asked around for advice and support to not circ, but didnt get any at that time. The closest I came was my friend who is circ, but his brother is not. The friend chose not to circ, and told me if his son ever asked advice about being non-circ, he would say to talk to his brother.

Just a note: if I was to come to this site looking for support to not circ'ing when I was, this thread would not have been the place. So f'n nasty stuff that made me feel like poop and that I can do no good.

I do feel like I made the wrong choice with my first son. I watched the Penn and Teller BullS**t show and felt even worse afterwards. But the issue I am having now is that I feel I dont have the words/advice to give my upcoming son about why he is not circ'd while my first son is. I know I'll never 'have' the words until the situation comes up, and coming to this site isn't helping me any. I feel attacked (now I've waited two weeks to write anything back so I could cool down, but I still feel attacked). I feel like I was being judged by people who knew nothing about me. I was made to feel like an a-hole.

And if that was your intention with your responses, then congrats!

Are you the father the OP was referring to?

I think you should re-read our posts and realize that although some are heated and emotional, they are not "slander" and attacks but legitimate arguments about why some people feel compelled to use the "look like daddy" argument.
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#42 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 03:22 PM
 
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I think she is the person the OP was referring to, (maybe?)

But it seems she left her son intact (or will?) and is now wondering what to tell the sons when/if they talk about being different.
Ahh okay. I only have one son and he is intact so I don't have experience with talking to boys about why one is intact and one isn't. :

But I'd certainly suggest the mama have a gentle conversation with the boys if and when the issue comes up.

Mama to 5 busy bees (12, 9, 7, 3, 2) and expecting #6 June/2014

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#43 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 03:31 PM
 
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Phsargent. If you feel bad about having your first son circ'd then you'd feel worse about having your second done. You will find the words I am sure. I know there are so many situations I have worried about in the first 11 months of my sons life and I have made it through somehow. I just have to keep hoping that's how things go.

I am sorry you feel attacked here. I know we feel passionate about this stuff and since it's the only place 'safe' to vent sometimes we get carried away.

Please please don't use the words here as a reason to circ. There are many women here who circ'd their first and not their second so you will find lots of support actually.
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#44 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 03:33 PM
 
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apparently "harm ye none" really means "harm ye none except when mommy wants baby to have a pretty penis"
I wasn't going to reply individually, but I have to reply to this one. Let me quote a passage from Wiccan Mysteries by Raven Grimassi:

"The popular text known as The Wiccan Rede best sums up Wiccan ethics. The Rede says: "An as it harm none, [love], and do what thou will." Some Wiccans interpret this to mean that a person can do anything they wish as long as no one is harmed by it, and thereby that person is free of any Karmic debt. This is not exactly the interpretation of the Rede within the Mystery Teaching.

To do as one wills to do actually means to find one's purpose (one's True Will) and to fulfill it. This is intended to be for the benefit of the person but not to the detriment of another person. In a higher sense this Wiccan tenet is related to Eastern Mysticism. It is the work of the neophyte to master his or her physical senses and to pass into nonattachment. Once to student has risen above the desires and needs of the flesh, then he or she can view the world with detachment and so discover their true Will or Purpose.

At this stage there is no greed, envy, or jealousy, and therefore the person can act through knowledge of his or her own pure will, which then naturally causes no harm to another because it is not centered on any relationship, personal prestige or any personal gain within a society. It is the true will of the divine nature within the person, acting in accord with is purpose in this lifetime."

My role within my society and culture is the father to my child, and I make decisions accordingly. My decision to circ my child had nothing to do with wanting a 'pretty penis.' I looked at facts and figures, societal views, and the well being of my child when I researched circ'ing; I made my decision accordingly. Now with new facts and figures I DO feel that I made the wrong decision, and I am struggling with the decision for my next child. I admit that I fear not having the right words if I ever have to explain to my children why they are different or what not, but I am looking for advice and support (but not from around here).

It bothers me when people use to the Rede when people make decisions against what they believe in. I know that the role of the Rede is to guide my decisions on my path towards my place in society. And my place in society right now is to be a parent to my child. As a parent I have to make decisions for my child where or not I want to. I'd love for my child to make every decision for himself, but most time my child does need my guidence based on the severity of the decision. But every decision I 'make' for my child is weighed against the needs and safety of my child first, and then any possible societal needs. Never do I do anything 'for' my child simply on my desires. (okay, maybe when I put a Ramones t-shirt on him is it out of my needs, but he does seem to like their music). I'm doing the best I can for my child, and while I do regret some decisions I have made, I made them and they can't be undone, so I must move forward and work harder in the future.

I've never done anything to intentionally harm my child!
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#45 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 03:38 PM
 
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I admit that I fear not having the right words if I ever have to explain to my children why they are different or what not, but I am looking for advice and support (but not from around here).
You sound like a nice caring guy. I am sorry about the venom. There are some dads out there that really are horrible about it, I hate you feel painted with the same brush and as I said before you'll actually get a lot of support around here. Particularly as dads who change their way of thinking are a rare thing here.
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#46 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 04:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by phsargent View Post
I wasn't going to reply individually, but I have to reply to this one. Let me quote a passage from Wiccan Mysteries by Raven Grimassi:

"The popular text known as The Wiccan Rede best sums up Wiccan ethics. The Rede says: "An as it harm none, [love], and do what thou will." Some Wiccans interpret this to mean that a person can do anything they wish as long as no one is harmed by it, and thereby that person is free of any Karmic debt. This is not exactly the interpretation of the Rede within the Mystery Teaching.

To do as one wills to do actually means to find one's purpose (one's True Will) and to fulfill it. This is intended to be for the benefit of the person but not to the detriment of another person. In a higher sense this Wiccan tenet is related to Eastern Mysticism. It is the work of the neophyte to master his or her physical senses and to pass into nonattachment. Once to student has risen above the desires and needs of the flesh, then he or she can view the world with detachment and so discover their true Will or Purpose.

At this stage there is no greed, envy, or jealousy, and therefore the person can act through knowledge of his or her own pure will, which then naturally causes no harm to another because it is not centered on any relationship, personal prestige or any personal gain within a society. It is the true will of the divine nature within the person, acting in accord with is purpose in this lifetime."

My role within my society and culture is the father to my child, and I make decisions accordingly. My decision to circ my child had nothing to do with wanting a 'pretty penis.' I looked at facts and figures, societal views, and the well being of my child when I researched circ'ing; I made my decision accordingly. Now with new facts and figures I DO feel that I made the wrong decision, and I am struggling with the decision for my next child. I admit that I fear not having the right words if I ever have to explain to my children why they are different or what not, but I am looking for advice and support (but not from around here).

It bothers me when people use to the Rede when people make decisions against what they believe in. I know that the role of the Rede is to guide my decisions on my path towards my place in society. And my place in society right now is to be a parent to my child. As a parent I have to make decisions for my child where or not I want to. I'd love for my child to make every decision for himself, but most time my child does need my guidence based on the severity of the decision. But every decision I 'make' for my child is weighed against the needs and safety of my child first, and then any possible societal needs. Never do I do anything 'for' my child simply on my desires. (okay, maybe when I put a Ramones t-shirt on him is it out of my needs, but he does seem to like their music). I'm doing the best I can for my child, and while I do regret some decisions I have made, I made them and they can't be undone, so I must move forward and work harder in the future.

I've never done anything to intentionally harm my child!
I think if you came here asking for support on how to deal with having one intact son and a circ'd one, you'd get tons of support. Several other parents in the same situation have posted here and gotten lots of support.

But if you come here, doing exactly what you accuse some of doing here, on the offensive calling people "mean", "cruel" and shouting how this is a horrible place, then you're really shutting yourself off.

You have left your son intact, congratulations. You have uncertainities about how to deal with your circ'd son's possible questions. People here can help. If you like you can stay and be a part of this community. We'd certainly love to have you here.
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#47 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 04:18 PM
 
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I made my decision accordingly. Now with new facts and figures I DO feel that I made the wrong decision, and I am struggling with the decision for my next child.
It takes a very strong person to admit they made a mistake

You are not alone in your worry there are posters here who have been in this postition and who have delt with telling the first ds why they decided to circ him while leaving another ds intact.

Yes we can be ruff here. If you have something you feel very strongly about maybe you can relate. I hope you find the support you need somewere if not here.

 
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#48 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 06:44 PM
 
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apparently "harm ye none" really means "harm ye none except when mommy wants baby to have a pretty penis"
Its funny how you called it a "pretty penis". I don't think circed penis's look pretty at all. Not saying that you think they're pretty. Circumcised penis's actually look really funny.
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#49 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 07:00 PM
 
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I don't want to give up our friendship, but at the same time, I can never look at her the same if she does decide to do this
I was in a very similar situations. Long story short, there was always a wedge between us after that, and when she moved I just couldn't bring myself to stay in contact anymore. And now she's divorced, so her son's penis looks just like the man she hates who cheated on her. Nice.

I don't know what to say. Maybe you can do more for your friend than I did, but for me it was quite clear that her door was bolted shut on the circ issue (but she was against animal cruelty and a vegetarian, just not against child abuse I guess? : ).

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#50 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 07:05 PM
 
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I circ'd my first son out of ignorance and the fact that not one person-esp the dr-ever gave me the idea that I should question it or that it wasn't necessary. I totally regret not looking outside the "mainstream" information. Shortly after this experience (and we did have problems related to it) I found Mothering and a whole new education on such issues.

When my 2nd son came along there was NEVER a question if we would circ-it was not an option ever. It's unncessary, risky, etc and I wish just one person would have gave me any of this info when my first son was born.

My DH never thought for a moment that his being different from my son was an issue-he knows he can talk openly about it when the time comes. What will he say? Who knows, we don't have a script. But he knows that explaining both sides of the issue when they are old enough will have to be enough.

We are all different in some way-so who cares if one son is circ'd vs intact? Being the same is just not a reason to circ-it makes no sense to me.

Full-time homeschooling mama : of a 15yo "teenager" , 12yo DIVA, 9yo builder, & 4yo treasure.
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#51 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 09:39 PM
 
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I circed my first son out of complete ignorance. I saw the wound and remember feeling bad about it, but when he healed I was o.k. with it (at the time). Before I had my second son two years later, I remember thinking that maybe I didn't want him to go through something painful. I had not yet researched circumcision- had never seen pictures or a video. It was more of a feeling than anything based on what I actually knew... but I pushed it away, repressed it. I wanted so badly to believe in my heart that I had done the right thing and that I had not harmed my first child. When the time came to have my second son circumcised, I signed the consent form and handed him to the nurse. I am still haunted by that moment. About a year and a half later, I came across a circumcision video and some information. I was hit with such overwhelming grief and despair. I have been able to forgive myself (as much as I can) for my first son. It is what happened to my second that I cannot let go, because I knew deep down that I should not have let it happen. Not a day goes by that I don't grieve for both of them, but it is truly my second that I grieve the most.

mom to DS 7, DS 5 and DD 3 :
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#52 of 56 Old 08-17-2007, 10:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
unless she has access to the older material from before it was censored.
Really?? Do tell!!!

I understand LLL not wanting to "mix causes" - ie, not recommending home birth or other such things. But they do have a position on having as natural a birth as possible to ensure early breastfeeding success, and not circing goes along with that natural, uninterrupted process. I was curious on the circ thing, because I noticed at least two people in LLL meetings who had circ'd sons. I recently looked in the Breastfeeding Answer Book (published by LLL) while at the Chicago conference to see what they said, and I found two references in the index to circing... it basically said that any painful procedure, such as a heel stick, injection, or circumcision has the potential to cause the baby to "shut down" and therefore not nurse effectively for a few days. Does anyone know of any research on this - how often it causes early bfing problems?
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#53 of 56 Old 08-18-2007, 09:13 AM
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Its funny how you called it a "pretty penis". I don't think circed penis's look pretty at all. Not saying that you think they're pretty. Circumcised penis's actually look really funny.
I don't find them attractive either. But that's why a lot of moms say they do it.


And father in the OP: The statement wasn't even directed towards you. It was directed towards the attitude in the OP. Look at it from another perspective - you may not have been intentionally doing it to the first baby, which is well and good - no one here faults the uninformed...it was the idea of doing it to ANOTHER baby being FULLY informed. THAT is intentionally causing harm. See where the snarkiness comes from?

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I was (am) worried about hyperspadia.
That's more reason NOT to circ. If the baby has hypo and there's no foreskin, what do you plan to repair it with.

Honestly I think you need to do a lot of research - the foreskin has SO many purposes and benefits...circumcision is the exact opposite. No benefits and many negatives.

You can talk to my partner if you like - had a standard run of the mill 80s circ with 0 complications...until he had a penile growth spurt at 17 and started having erections so tight part of his penis was numb, and actually the skin sometimes tore. Guess the doctor wasn't a psychic afterall and predict he was going to be "well endowed". Honestly wish my mother and father in law would have kept their nose out of my and my partners bed.

We aren't normally a mean group of people, but we have little forgiveness for those who know better and know what they're doing and still do it.

Long distance Mom to boarding school superstars E (9) and Layne (6).
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#54 of 56 Old 08-18-2007, 05:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AmyJayne19 View Post
Its funny how you called it a "pretty penis". I don't think circed penis's look pretty at all. Not saying that you think they're pretty. Circumcised penis's actually look really funny.
I don't think there's anything even remotely funny-looking about mutilated bodyparts : A circumcised penis looks sad and mutilated, not funny IMO.
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#55 of 56 Old 08-18-2007, 09:15 PM
 
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I find all genitals (intact or circed) less than attractive.

I dont think they mean funny as in haha funny but funny as in strange or very different.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

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#56 of 56 Old 08-24-2007, 01:58 AM
 
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There's no talking logic to the "look like Daddy" brigade.

They know they're not working on logic anyway. What they're working on is feeding the bruised ego of the father. He's circed and he wants his boys to be circed and that's that.
Yup, that's exactly right. Exactly what I was thinking as I read the OP.


{Partner to DH  and Former WOHM, now SAHM  to DD, DD , and DS } *** ***
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