ok, what do you do when a friend is informed and still wants to circ? - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-21-2007, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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well, this has been brewing in my brain the past few days, and I decided to ask even though there is a chance this friend might read/find this (she knows about/occasionally visits MDC). What do you do/say when a friend says that she HAS read the info and seen the videos and still wants to circ? This friend is very AP, and it really shocked me when she told me her first son was not intact, but it shocked me even more when after finding out shes having another boy, said she would be circing again. I offered more info, but she said shes read it all, and watched videos, and even seen her 1st DS have it done, and even regrets it a little, but wants the 2nd DS to "look like" the 1st DS and daddy. I tried to talk to her about the function of the foreskin, about how genital mutilation is still mutilation across gender lines, about how I don't give my DD tattoos to look like me, or wouldnt chop off a finger to "match" someone.....but she kept saying she was leaving it up to her DH, who wanted them to "look alike", so I finally just had to get off the phone before I started crying. She kept saying I don't understand because I don't have a boy. Like if I had a baby boy I'd suddenly feel ok about chopping off a part of my tiny newborn for purely selfish and cosmetic reasons! (ok, sorry, anger flaring a little, I'm just so sad for this tiny baby to be)
So what the heck do you say/do at this point? They're pagan (very earth centered too, which is confusing me so much with this issue), read Mothering mag, cosleep, GD, extended BF/CLW.......so WHY would they still choose to let a doctor cut off a part of their baby?! I have been avoiding talking to her, because I'm really upset about it, but I know THATS not helping/changing anything, except the fact that I'm feeling pretty friendless. Is there anything more I can do? I know people who have circed babies/kids, but that was all before I even met them, this feels so different to me, like I have to protect this tiny baby but am unable to, and it seriously breaks my heart. I don't want to give up our friendship, but at the same time, I can never look at her the same if she does decide to do this, I mean its not like someone choosing to FF or whatever that I can look past.....its cutting off a part of a babies body! Ok, now I'm just preaching to the choir....thanks for listening though....I guess I'm an intactivist now....

mama to August May (8/06) Liberty Kiana (7/08) and Calliope Rose (6/15/10)
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Old 05-21-2007, 01:46 PM
 
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There's no talking logic to the "look like Daddy" brigade.

They know they're not working on logic anyway. What they're working on is feeding the bruised ego of the father. He's circed and he wants his boys to be circed and that's that.
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Old 05-21-2007, 01:53 PM
 
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So what the heck do you say/do at this point?
I would say exactally what I have said to two good friends of mine.

"If you have your child circed, I will not be able to look at you without feeling like puking. So feel free to lose my phone number if you decide to circ"

I can't associate with someone who chops off body parts of babies knowing all the facts. I don't care how good of a 'friend' they are. They are an abusive parent. I don't associate with child abusers.

Dawn, mama to D (3.06) & N (9.07) C (11.09) & Still-in-shock surprise due in Aug!
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Old 05-21-2007, 02:07 PM
 
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There is nothing that bothers me MORE than someone who is informed and educated about circ and decides to do it anyway. :

Ask her if she'd give a daughter breast implants to look like her? Will they be buying contacts for the baby if the baby's eyes are a different color than the father's?

Everyone's genitals look different. Circ'd or intact. Why people feel the need to "match" is beyond me. Papai is right, this is about the father's bruised ego.
Tell the mother that this is her chance to STOP the cycle of mutilation in her family.

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Old 05-21-2007, 02:21 PM
 
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I would say exactally what I have said to two good friends of mine.

"If you have your child circed, I will not be able to look at you without feeling like puking. So feel free to lose my phone number if you decide to circ"

I can't associate with someone who chops off body parts of babies knowing all the facts. I don't care how good of a 'friend' they are. They are an abusive parent. I don't associate with child abusers.
: No way could I stay friends with someone who knew what they were doing but did it any way for stupid reasons.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

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Old 05-21-2007, 02:26 PM
 
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I was anti-circ before I had my sons but the feelings that came up after I had my first son regarding circ were pretty intense (hard to explain but seeing how perfect and innocent he was just made circ seem even more vile). So I don't know what you having a son would do except make you even more anti-circ.

I have two intact sons and both of them look different, that excuse is just so freakin stupid. I can't inagine knowing better and doing it anyway so all the penises in the house will match and of course they won't anyway. They'll all just be mutilated.

Obviously I have no advice but I definitely understand how hard this is for you.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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Old 05-21-2007, 03:17 PM
 
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Seriously has she lined up her husband and son sans trousers? I would suggest she do this and then have them talk about how their penises are so very much alike. What? That would be weird? That's exactly what she is saying they expect to do! GRRRRRRRRRRR!

I would never remain friends with someone who chopped up their baby to assauge the ego of a grown man

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Old 05-21-2007, 03:20 PM
 
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What worked with my dh was telling him that our insurance does not cover routine circ. That was enough to persuade him. I wonder if her insurance covers it and if she would still be willing to pay out of pocket for it.
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Old 05-21-2007, 03:25 PM
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apparently "harm ye none" really means "harm ye none except when mommy wants baby to have a pretty penis"

Long distance Mom to boarding school superstars E (9) and Layne (6).
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Old 05-21-2007, 03:37 PM
 
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I'm convinced that it means that those fathers cannot confront the reality of what they endured as infants. If they perpetuate the practice onto their own sons, then it justifies it. So very sad, but it's about their emotional weakness and vulnerability. I'm so glad that I married the kind of man who would say, "It ends with me. Not My Son!"
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Old 05-21-2007, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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yes, Fi, YES!! thank you! that is exactly what I was thinking!! and thanks for the hugs and stuff, this is really hard because shes pretty much my only friend in the area, we are training to become LLL leaders together (our current leader wants to schedule our meetings with her together, work together etc), but at the same time, just like I can't be friendly with people who hit their children, there is no way I can act like everything is ok if she is making a decision to let someone take a scalpel to her child. This is so frusturating.....

mama to August May (8/06) Liberty Kiana (7/08) and Calliope Rose (6/15/10)
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Old 05-21-2007, 04:01 PM
 
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I'm convinced that it means that those fathers cannot confront the reality of what they endured as infants. If they perpetuate the practice onto their own sons, then it justifies it. So very sad, but it's about their emotional weakness and vulnerability.


It is not about matching daddy. It is about patching daddy's ego..you know that nagging little feeling - how would it feel if I had foreskin...

I really do not have advice to you - me personally, if someone abuses her child that way after knowing all facts - bye bye. I could not be near. But that's me. Hopefully you find a solution best for you.
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Old 05-21-2007, 04:33 PM
 
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I am in this boat with two of my friends. One of them doesn't have children yet but her husband is INSISTENT that it will be done if they ever have a son. I think she knows better and comes from British family that doesn't do it, but will give into him 'to match daddy.' She used to think it was 'just a piece of skin' and I informed her differently. Her husband is a clean freak and I would imagine that intact penises are dirty. She's type to shut down a conversation she is uncomfortable with.

The other friend of mine really surprises me. She seems quite crunchy and I was very shocked when I offered some information and she said they'd decided to do it having looked into it. I just didn't know what to say so assumed they'd done it and said nothing. A while after he was born she mentioned they hadn't been able to do it because he might have to have some surgery on to correct a minor birth defect and they might need to foreskin for extra skin. I again offered her some info and she said she was intested in hearing 'a woman's perspective'. I sent her the Northrup article and we haven't talked about it since since there was some blushing involved in the conversation. I would very very very dissapointed if they did it in the end since they seem like such loving caring people, just the type to NOT have it done.

People who have it done despite having the information disgust me. Thankfully everyone bar the friend mentioned above that we know in the US have had girls. It's a non-issue with the friends and family in Europe thank God! I know it will come up eventually and I don't know what I'll do then.

Like another poster above I became even more against circ. once I had my own son. It goes against every fiber of being a mother and wanting to protect your child to let them go through a painful operation for cosmetic purposes. It will be hard to respect any of my friends that do it since we DO have access to the information and should know better.
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Old 05-21-2007, 04:49 PM
 
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I hate it when people tell me that I'll feel differently when I have a son I really wouldn't be able to have anything to do with someone who knew about it and still chose to have it done to their son. If someone didn't know, then they didn't know; but someone who knows and still chooses to have it done : I can't even fathom that... though I definitely have known people like that...

I would ask how her dh enjoys his wax jobs "down there" and how wearing that ice pack down his pants 24/7 is going since he obviously must do everything possible to "match" his older son as closely as he possibly can.

Actually, in all seriousness... I would tell her about my dh who is VERY glad that although his father is circumcised, his father was man enough to leave his son's genitals alone. It's nice to have that bit of info from the intact son of a circumcised man's perspective to counter this particular "look-alike" argument. Dh is also glad that he wasn't circumcised to look like most of his friends when he was growing up. They just accepted that their penises were different just like their hair and eye color and face shapes were all different. I would imagine it would be the same way with siblings (dh is an only child)

love and peace.

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: Circumcision can never be undone :
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Old 05-21-2007, 04:54 PM
 
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I'm convinced that it means that those fathers cannot confront the reality of what they endured as infants. If they perpetuate the practice onto their own sons, then it justifies it. So very sad, but it's about their emotional weakness and vulnerability. I'm so glad that I married the kind of man who would say, "It ends with me. Not My Son!"
Allie, I love that last line!

To the OP, I'd tell her this:

While I may not have any sons, I do have a daughter and looking at the appearance of her labia lately and knowing it's now "trendy" for some women go to cosmetic surgeons for "labia reduction surgery" to make a "prettier" vagina, I think I will sincerely look into this so the shape of her labia matches the shape of mine.

You know... kind of use more forceful sarcasm to put a mirror in the face of her. The tragic thing is, it IS legal for adult women to have this surgery by choice, yet it's illegal to "sculpt" the shape of your minor daughter's vagina. Minor males? They don't get the same protection!

I'd say to her: Your reasons are shallow and feed into the insecurities of your husband and do nothing more to pet his ego than protect your sons. Honestly, I will not be able to feel at ease around you if you go through with this mutilation.

I know it SOUNDS easier for me to give you advice to say to your friend, but quite honestly, I'd be just as comfortable and even more comfortable saying it my friend who wanted to do this. The mutilation HAS to stop! And if I lose a friend, she isn't a type of person I want as one.

I hope she comes around!!!!
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Old 05-21-2007, 04:57 PM
 
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That "you'll understand when you have a son" is a load of bs. If ANYTHING, when you have a son you will feel MORE strongly about protecting his right to be intact. Honestly, I was an intactavist since I found out I was pregnant and researched circ 6 years ago. I had two girls in a row...then, when my son was born I felt MORE strongly than ever about circ.

Having a son, and seeing how perfect he is as he was born...it's just more obvious that circ is WRONG!

Perpetually breastfeeding or pregnant ENFP mom to a lot of kids...wife to a midwestern nice guy...living in tropical paradise...pink cats and homebirths rock!

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Old 05-21-2007, 07:48 PM
 
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Ffft. Real men don't want their children tortured to assuage their own egos.

Children are human beings with rights and feelings, not custom-built accessories.
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:04 PM
 
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she said shes read it all, and watched videos, and even seen her 1st DS have it done
I really have a hard time believing she did that and still is circing.
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:36 PM
 
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"If you have your child circed, I will not be able to look at you without feeling like puking. So feel free to lose my phone number if you decide to circ"
I really need to practice this. I have two friends so far and one neighbor who circ'd despite the information and I am still in turmoil about it while they are fine. The next time I plan to say something.
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:53 PM
 
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And in California, no less! Have you pointed out how much in the minority she's putting her sons in?

, sounds like your friends' son has hypospadias maybe? There is a site about it, I think somewhere in the links up top. It is recommended that for minor cases they don't do the corrective surgery, at least not until the boy is grown. And there are ways to do it without sacrificing the whole foreskin, it's a European method (of course!). You might want to find that site and send your friend to it, not from an anti/pro circ argument perspective, but from a "get the best treatment for his condition" perspective.
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Old 05-21-2007, 11:10 PM
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I would say exactally what I have said to two good friends of mine.

"If you have your child circed, I will not be able to look at you without feeling like puking. So feel free to lose my phone number if you decide to circ"

I can't associate with someone who chops off body parts of babies knowing all the facts. I don't care how good of a 'friend' they are. They are an abusive parent. I don't associate with child abusers.
: with one correction: they are baby rapists. Strapping down against one's will, violating/damaging genitals is a definition of RAPE! And I don't associate with rapists.
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Old 05-22-2007, 12:34 AM
 
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.but she kept saying she was leaving it up to her DH, who wanted them to "look alike",
what about just suggesting she leave it up to her son? it's his penis, why not let him decide if he wants to be circ'd or not? i have a friend who got a circumcision at 23 because he wanted to.

especially if she's so "informed" about the reasons not to do it, how can she argue with that?

it's hard when you've got one good friend where you live. i've been through that and i honestly don't know if i would have been strong enough to ditch my only cool mama support over any one issue. luckily she had a girl and was anti-circ so i didn't have to worry about it.

good luck!

eh. who needs a signature?
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Old 05-22-2007, 12:46 AM
 
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mamamoose- I feel for you. I've been wrestling with the same question for a week now. My brother & SIL had their baby circumcised in spite of the fact that they knew all the info from when I researched it for my oldest ds, and I am having a really hard time getting past it.
They do so many other AP things for their baby, (and we're in california, too- what is with this state this week?), but on this, they just will not budge, and I cannot understand why.

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Old 05-22-2007, 01:34 AM
 
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Ffft. Real men don't want their children tortured to assuage their own egos.

Children are human beings with rights and feelings, not custom-built accessories.
Yup.

And real women don't allow their husbands to mutilate their children.
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Old 05-22-2007, 03:51 AM
 
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I don't think she is really "leaving it up to daddy, who wants them all to look alike."

My suspition is that she can't face explaining to DS1 why she allowed this to happen to him, and is hoping that by circ'ing DS2 as well they will all live out the rest of their lives in denile.

If I'm correct, she must first allow herself to fell grief for the pain she caused her DS. She can not stand up for DS2 without admitting that what happened to DS1 was wrong and that she failed him. Those of us who are mommies know how horrible we feel anytime we think we failed to protect our DC.

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Old 05-22-2007, 04:29 PM
 
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I've removed several posts here because they were either a UAV, or quoted a UAV. Carry on with the topic at hand.

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Old 05-22-2007, 05:17 PM
 
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yes, Fi, YES!! thank you! that is exactly what I was thinking!! and thanks for the hugs and stuff, this is really hard because shes pretty much my only friend in the area, we are training to become LLL leaders together (our current leader wants to schedule our meetings with her together, work together etc), but at the same time, just like I can't be friendly with people who hit their children, there is no way I can act like everything is ok if she is making a decision to let someone take a scalpel to her child. This is so frusturating.....
She is training to be a leader!? I hope she REALLLLLLY reads up on circ and the interfernces in the early BF relationship:

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Old 05-22-2007, 05:24 PM
 
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That "you'll understand when you have a son" is a load of bs. If ANYTHING, when you have a son you will feel MORE strongly about protecting his right to be intact. Honestly, I was an intactavist since I found out I was pregnant and researched circ 6 years ago. I had two girls in a row...then, when my son was born I felt MORE strongly than ever about circ.

Having a son, and seeing how perfect he is as he was born...it's just more obvious that circ is WRONG!
THIS is why I want to have all boys, does that make me weird?

I have a very good friend who circed her lil boy, we met when the boys were older. I don't think what I would have said would have made a difference. I know she worries how I feel about it might affect our friendship and I Iunderstand that. I love her to death: :l, yes I wish she would not have done it along with every other lil boy out there, but that was what they deciede to do. I hope that our boys can learn from each other. I think you can still be friends with somebody who feels differently than you, hell you never know what your friendship might influnce them to think say or do in the future. Friendship is about loving and supporting each other as well as learnign from one another.

Living DAIRY AND GLUTEN FREE for my SPD and Aspergers Little Man.
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Old 05-22-2007, 06:38 PM
 
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THIS is why I want to have all boys, does that make me weird?
Not in my book.
I thank God every day that I was given 2 little boys. I love little girls, but there are many who protect them, but who would circumcise a boy. I know that boys born to me will be protected and I celebrate that.

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Old 05-22-2007, 06:52 PM
 
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She is training to be a leader!? I hope she REALLLLLLY reads up on circ and the interfernces in the early BF relationship:
Sadly, she wont' find that information in the LLL materials. :

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