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#1 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 01:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm trying to not panic. But I feel sick to my stomach and am crying. And really dislike DH right now.

I showed him the graphic video of the black baby being cut. I cried so hard upon watching that for the first time.
He made me move away from him bc he said i was hovering. Whatever.
Then after said it didn't bother him aas much as it bothered me and he HAS a penis. I'm totally shocked.

Then he started doing research on "unbiased"sites.
Then when I thought he was still reading, he was infact researching toy airplanes for our 8 yo nephew.:
Ya-about 20 mins worth of reading.

I started asking questions.
His reasons are-It's cleaner. (he actually said he would dribble if not circ'd!!)
Wants him to look the same-no "upset"
Doesn't want him to be teased at school
Then after reading-fewer UTI's (2% vs 7 % for uncirc'd boys)
Less penile cancer
HIV

I said-he won't look like you-you're 36-he will be a child-you'll never look the same.
-He needs to wear a condom anyway and that HIV study was one study that used flawed research and has since been refuted by newer studies.

It's NOT cleaner b/c the penis is fused. And when it retracts later, he will need to wash it anyay-like any other part of his body. You still need to wash your pits and butt. It's just another body part.

I said that about 10 % of canadian kids are circ'd.He found a stat that said about 30 %.

Then he started being an ass. Making fun of me and calling me a tree hugger and that he was going to put parental controls on the computer so I can't get to sites like this one. Basically slammed my pov.

Then started joking. When I said that his dad wouldn't have been -and how traumatised could he have been if he didn't even KNOW if his dad was-he said he was traumatised for his dad that he wasn't.
I swore at him and started crying and got mad that he couldn't be serious about anything-he always needed to joke and that I found nothing about this funny.


I explained that I didn't think it was our place to make this decision for him. It was HIS penis and he should make that decision, bc there would be no going back if he didn't want it done.

He said it was more painfull to have it done as an adult, even though I have read the opposite here.

I'm pissed that he fell asleep in under 3 mins and I'm sitting downstairs so upset and can't sleep.
I'm so worried.

I see my Dr. for an allergy shot in the morning and will talk to him about this with him as he will be the baby's dr. I'm almost positive he will be against it.
And I told Dh he should talk to him-which he said he would-and he really likes him (he's the dr. for all of us)

What else can I do? I am scared and feel sick and am feeling hostile. He wouldn't even let me show him those hatchet pics from the horror story thread from this morning. I guess that will be for tomorrow night?

HELP!! I just don't know what else to do. In canada, can a baby be cut without the conscent of both parents?

ETA--OH,and he said well, it will be healed in a week anyway, so what's the big deal??
HOLY F***!

And he asked if one parent can make the decision and I said I would NOT give my conscent. He gave a smirk and said he would take the baby and get it done while I was sleeping etc. I hope lile hell he was joking again!

ETA 2-- I just checked the computer history. Ya!! His "unbiased" research was googling "arguments for circumcision" How friggin unbiased can that be?
And he looked up the provincial health info which said it wasn't covered.
I also saw where he got his stats. I'll print off and give him the info that glongley provided.



:
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#2 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 01:34 AM
 
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How about just put your foot down? Say, this baby is not being circumcised and that's the end of the discussion. I will not consent, and if you do it without my consent the marriage will be over. I am growing this baby, I am his mother and I will protect him with every fiber of my being. End of story. No more discussion.

You are giving him way too much power in this situation. Take your wind out of his sails. It's not his body, it's not his decision, so he may not decide to cut your son.

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#3 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 01:43 AM
 
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#4 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 02:00 AM
 
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Quote:
And he asked if one parent can make the decision and I said I would NOT give my conscent. He gave a smirk and said he would take the baby and get it done while I was sleeping etc. I hope lile hell he was joking again!
Any man who threatened that wouldnt see his child. Seriously, what kind of person would do soemthing like that.

It sounds to me like he is having a really hard time dealing with what was done to him.

The sad thing is that if he were to take the baby he could get it done with his concent only I hope you get this worked out fast.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

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#5 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 03:38 AM
 
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Looks like you're in Canada, MapleLeafMama, so I'm waving to you from
Vancouver BC. Here's a link to a 2004 Medical Post item about how the
B.C. College of Physicians and Surgeons beefed up their anti circ position
after a 6 week old baby boy bled to death after being circumcised at a
Penticton, BC hospital. His name was Ryleigh McWillis if your husband can
bear to do some research on that terrible occurence.

http://www.canadiancrc.com/articles/...on_06JUL04.htm

We also had a case last year in Winnipeg where their was a mixup of baby boys and a boy was cut without his parents' permission. The dr tried to do a
coverup and obtained consent from the parents through manipulation after the fact. Luckily, in Canada, even the nurses are becoming whistle blowers on this kind of nonsense and the truth came out. Manitoba was the last prov in Canada to give up prov health care funding for genital mutilation.

Your husband will see the light eventually and then he'll become a bigger intactivist than you are. It happens all the time but sometimes it just takes a little longer for the penny to drop.

Keep loving him and educating him. . . your son will thank you.
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#6 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 04:06 AM
 
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I've come to beleive that pregnancy brings out the worst in DHs.

I find with the wise a$$ type of personality direct confonrtation becomes a game and they keep argueing not b/c they believe they are right but b/c they like to see you get . Basically frusterating you is fun.

Take the wind out of his sails and make your points when he can't argue back at you. One person here left anti-circ literature in the bathroom and took away all other reading materials so her DH had to look at it. Leave web browsers open to pages with possible complications. Bring the subject up when you are with people who will support you so that you out number him.

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#7 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 06:16 AM
 
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Maple Leaf Mama - to you. That is so hard.

Here is an article you need to read - this is just for you, not for your husband. It will explain what is happening with him:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Lots and lots of men shut down and won't listen about circumcision. It can't be easy to hear that you lost sexual sensation as a baby, you know?

Perhaps this article will help you understand a bit where your dh is coming from. You know him best - after you read it, perhaps you'll have a better idea of how to approach this with him.

I do know that there was a mama here recently who protected her son, even though her dh never came around to agreeing with her that leaving him intact was better. Her dh did eventually get over it.

But as you said - bottom line, not his penis, not his decision. You can always tell him that if your son wants to be circumcised himself as an adult, he can be.

It is much easier on an adult - he can discuss with his doctor exactly what kind of circ he wants, he'll get proper pain relief, he won't be sitting with an open wound in urine and feces while it heals, the foreskin will already be detached from the glans, so it won't have to be forcibly scraped away, etc.

Hang in there - and know that we're here to support you in standing up for your son's right to his whole body.
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#8 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 06:38 AM
 
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Just tell him it's NOT getting done.

Quote:
And he asked if one parent can make the decision and I said I would NOT give my conscent. He gave a smirk and said he would take the baby and get it done while I was sleeping etc. I hope lile hell he was joking again!
He actually said that that is just wrong.
I'm with the pp that said

Quote:
Any man who threatened that wouldnt see his child. Seriously, what kind of person would do soemthing like that.

Becky, sahm to angel.gif25/04/2000 Chloe 12/04/2002 Cameron 19/02/2004 Caitlin 28/06/2005 angel.gif24/07/2006 and Caden 14/03/2008

Xander 19/05/2011
angel.gif 19.05.2012 angel.gif 18.08.2012 angel.gif 24.05.2013 angel.gif 25.6.2013 belly.gif 04.09.2014 uc.jpg

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#9 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 08:33 AM
 
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I think it is a great idea to work closely with your doctor and see what kind of influence that can have on him. At least he (hopefully) won't be sarcastic and joking with the dr. Tell your dr how much this is upsetting you and that you need someone on your (and your baby's) side.

Good luck and big hugs to you.
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#10 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 10:32 AM
 
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I'm sorry, but that was not a discussion. Making fun of you, calling you names are not very good pro-circ arguments. I don't see why you have to plead, cry and be afraid for your baby. If he can't come to terms with his son not being circ, it's HIS problem, not yours.

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#11 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 10:47 AM
 
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hugs mama

The only thing I can think of, out and out tell your dh he didn't do research. So his opinion doesn't mean squat until he does (yeah, I hate being made fun of)

And talk to everyone before hand. Talk to your dr, say no circ, talk to admitting, say no circ, talk to nurses, say no circ, co-sleep in the hospital so no one can take him while you're sleeping, say no circ everytime you can.

good luck sweetie. protect that baby.
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#12 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 11:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mewsin View Post
The only thing I can think of, out and out tell your dh he didn't do research. So his opinion doesn't mean squat until he does
And talk to everyone before hand. Talk to your dr, say no circ, talk to admitting, say no circ, talk to nurses, say no circ, co-sleep in the hospital so no one can take him while you're sleeping, say no circ everytime you can.
Yes to both points. I make pretty much all the parenting decisions in this house because I research things and get new ideas or affirm ideas I already have. If my husband argues, I tell him to look stuff up and we can discuss what he finds but he usually always drops the subject and we go ahead with what I plan. I think it's pretty silly to rely on someone's opinion when they don't even know what their opinion means.

Mark all the clothes you bring to the hospital with "do not circumcise" on them. Bring a permanent marker and write it on all the disposable diapers in the room. In the bassinette - if they must take him for any reason at all - make sure it's written in a couple places. Better yet, insist on accompanying him everywhere they say he needs to go.

And please tell you husband for me that 10% circed or 30% circed, your son will still be the oddball. 30% is still not the majority!
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#13 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 11:56 AM
 
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Poor Dh. Poor you .

Give him some space and time to absorb all of this. Think how emotional you feel about it and know that even if he doesn't show it the same way that he's feeling just as emotional as you are, except the issue isn't just about a DS, it's about him. His brain is whirling right now. I really do feel for him, he's grasping at straws. I assume he doesn't normally make fun of you and minimize your thoughts and feelings etc (?). I assume that's atypical behavior for him ? It's so personal for him and I assume he felt backed into a corner (because he probably knows deep down that you're right about this because you're right about so many things due to research etc) and he dealt with it the only way he knew how without caving outright.

When he said you were hovering....I think that's actually a good thing because it means he's really thinking this over and giving it some intense thought and he needed some space to do that. He was probably afraid of how he'd react to the video or the feelings it might bring up. I mean, this was done to him, too. He probably feels that you expect him to go from thinking RIC is great (his penis is great) to thinking it's terrible (his penis is terrible and you don't like it and maybe it even makes him feel like he doesn't like his penis and so what does that say about him as a man?) in one conversation and that's just asking a lot of him.

When I approached my DH I took it sllllllloooooooowly. Gave lots of time for things to sink in. ITA with reading vunerability of men if you haven't yet. It will help you a lot. Give you DH time to think about things....weeks or months if you have it. If not, put your foot down and hope that he comes around.

Your poor DH. It makes me cry to think of what was done to our men.
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#14 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 12:26 PM
 
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Your husband sounds like a real prize. You really need to put your foot down and say "There is no way that our baby will be circumcised. NEVER!" Your children should come first even if you have to leave your husband. Your husband wants to cause harm to your son and that is not ok.
Honestly I wouldnt even be with him in the first place but if my husband was saying the things yours is...I would be out that door in seconds. No way is that behavior acceptable.

Living the Joyful life as a mama of three beautiful children who are just right the way they are.

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#15 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, I just got back from talking to our Dr.
He said he is not in favor of it bc he sees no medical need for it. In fact, all the reasons out there to do it are WEAK at best!! He doesn't do it either. (He's pretty crunchy/pro baby IMO)
I made it clear that I was vehemetly opposed to it and DH was holding onto his beliefs for doing it based on poor reasons like HIV and looking like Daddy.
He agreed with me on all accounts.
He said thatwhen DH goes in to discuss this next week, he will tell him what he told me-that it is not recommended b/c there is no medical reason for it.

I read the article posted by Momiska. I gfelt pretty bad after reading it b/c I really didn't think about this from his side. After all, this happened to him so long ago, I didn't think it would be a sore subject.
I went on the attack a bit last night after his a-hole comments and his lack of reaction to the grusome video. Now I'm thinking that may have been him throwing up walls. I watched him over my paper and he was furrowing his brow and squinting a bit-how could you NOT??

I'll take a step back a bit and let him think about this for a while.

I din't get to sleep until some time after 4 this morning. I couldn't shut my brain off.

This morning was tense. He asked if I was angry. I said I was tired and angry. He asked if I would stop being angry any time soon, or would he have to wait until after the baby was born?
Ya, it was a bit tense.

No--he does not usually act like he did last night. I've known him for most of my life and he is a gentle, loving man. A real softie. Even his Dad says so.
This is why I think this is like a punch in the gut for him. Something I really hadn't considered.

I will print off the above links--THANK YOU!!
And hand them to him over the weekend.
While I was very upset last night, I have some confidence that our DR. will bring this home for me.

The knot/nausea is lightening a bit. If all else fails, I'll sharpie the baby's tummy!!
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#16 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 01:06 PM
 
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I hope he comes around and quickly. I would be so hurt and angry that he threatened you and the baby like that. I seriously hope he has an apology for you. He is defending his own circed status right now. I hope can see past his own ego and insecurities to take an honest look at what circ is and that it shouldn't be done.
But I would tell he him that it's not happening and he can either research (real research) or not but you've done your research and you will protect your son.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#17 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 01:29 PM
 
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here's my opinion, take it as you will:

I have to say that this gives you a pretty good idea of how he's going to treat you in a marriage. If I were you I'd be considering wether or not this was the person I want to raise children with and be tied to for the rest of my life.

If he'll belittle you over this and threaten to go against your wishes what else is he willing to do and how is he going to respect your opinion in the many other important decisions in life and marriage to come?

I agree with a PP who said that children don't bring a couple together, they create more stress. Children are a blessing but parenting is hard and can put a lot of extra stress on a couple.

Just to clarify, I'm a lot more bothered by his treatment of you than his pro-circ response. As much as I hate circ his treatment of you is more of a red flag in terms of his suitability to be a husband.

Laura

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#18 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mommiska View Post
Maple Leaf Mama - to you. That is so hard.

Here is an article you need to read - this is just for you, not for your husband. It will explain what is happening with him:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html
.
:

I agree--YOU need to read this article (DON'T show it to your dh.)


And then, as gently and lovingly as you can, tell your dh that circ WILL NOT BE HAPPENING to your son! Period.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#19 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 01:56 PM
 
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Hang in there, Maple Leaf Mama!

Maybe something like this would work with your DH:

"Remember when Hailey was born? Remember the feeling of joy and relief when we learned that she was healthy, normal, and perfect? Imagine how we would have felt if there had been something wrong with her - if she had needed an operation before she even went home from the hospital! It would have been devastating.

I want to feel the same way about our newborn son. If we are blessed with a baby who is healthy, normal, and perfect, there's no way I'm signing him up for an operation he does NOT need."

If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

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#20 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 02:17 PM
 
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If you've known him most of your life and he's never acted like this then the real conversation you two need to have first, before discussing your baby, is to talk about how come he felt the need to act that way?

I'd make sure I knew where he was coming from and why he felt he could treat methat way. Then I'd make sure he knew how I felt being treated that way. After all that "get it out in the open" talk it would be agreed that it won't happen again. We figure out a way for him to communicate and be respectful the next time he felt that way instead of being tactless and abusive.

Obviously, if he's never given an inkling (sp?) of acting like that before then he must really be bothered by it. Time to help him learn how to talk to you about things when he dealing with such strong feelings. Having a little one just adds stress when parents don't agree - get it fixed now before the baby comes.

Best wishes!
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#21 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 02:58 PM
 
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(((Hugs))) What a difficult situation...I'm sorry you're going through this.

I agree with what others have said, belittling you, calling you names, and literally threatening to go behind your back and do something that is clearly so upsetting to you you're already in tears is not a discussion. I would go so far as to call it emotionally abusive, and I would confront him with it.

I might even be tempted to say something like...

"It's not okay to talk to me like this. I deserve respect. Our son will be born perfect, no medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision.

The foreskin comes standard; a whole penis is the default.

Unless you can convince me in a calm & compelling manner that circumcision is necessary, it's not getting done, period.

Threatening to go behind my back and perpetuating something I consider to be abuse on our baby is unacceptable. Over. My. Dead. Body.

If you *ever* hurt one of our children like that we'll leave you so fast your head will spin."

Good luck,

Jen
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#22 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 05:55 PM
 
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If he does not change his tune, I don't think I would use the "if you do this, our marriage is over" line. He may just decide that that's the price he's willing to pay and call your bluff. I don't know what the legal situation there would be, but you might consider getting some kind of injunction to stop him if he does not turn around.
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#23 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 06:33 PM
 
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Maple Leaf Mama I understand how you feel I was there just 3 months ago.
I have never been a fan of circumcision but always thought I would leave the decision up to my son's father. My first two babies were girls so it was not an issue.

With my son born in March I didn't want to have the circ but his dad wanted him to have it so I relented. My doctor said that babies have to be 28 days old before he will perform the surgery so it was not done in the hospital. I am so glad for that now.

After making the appointment I looked up a video on the internet and actually saw how a circumcision was performed. I was horrified. I had to watch the video 4 times to see it all the way thru. My son was crying in response to the baby on the video crying and his dad came in the room to see what was going on. When I told him I had just watched that (I have no word that fits how I felt at that moment) horrific crime and that it would not be done to my child he responded with "you should not have watched it and he will be circumcised" He also made jokes and said that he would take him without me. At the time that set off my mama bear reactions but in hindsight I can now see that he was not serious and was trying to lighten the mood.

The argument went on for days with me hysterical and badgering him about it and him fighting back and then ignoring me. Whe then came to the agreement that he would watch the video and then we would discuss if DS would be circumcised. For 4 days he "forgot" or "didn't have time to watch" the video.

After talking to a girlfriend about it she gave me the best advice "Leave him alone!!!!" I wanted him to get where I was right now instead of giving him space to think for himself. After 3 days of not mentioning the subject at all I asked him if he had thought about it and he said that he still wanted him circumcised but since I felt so strongly about it he would let me decide.

I'm not saying that this is the exact situation with your DH but just try standing back and giving space for a moment. Just think of what you look like from his perspective, your hovering, checking to see what websites he looked at, and if you are anything like I was, a raving lunatic. He may be reacting to your behavior and feeling attacked and not able to deal with the issue itself.

Also, I would think that a doctor would not perform the procedure if the parents are in disagreement seeing as you can't undo it.

I hope it all works out well with your relationship and son intact.
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#24 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 07:25 PM
 
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Hi again - it sounds like you're getting a handle on how best to approach your dh with this. The Vulnerability article is such a good one for helping us to understand what is going on for circed men. It makes me so sad when I think what was done to the men of our generation.

I will say this - I've been ranting about the evils of circ on and off for the past 3.5 years to my mom (ever since my ds was born!). Both of my brothers are circed (although my dad is intact), so she would never say anything when I went off about it (that is her way of dealing with my rants when she doesn't agree with me!).

But my brother recently had a son and left him intact (yeah!). And my mom was very pleased, and will now make the odd anti-circ comment.

It just took her a long time to process...I imagine there was some grieving to be done over what she had allowed to happen to her sons, you know?

If this was out of character for your dh, I'm sure he will eventually come around (although I agree with the other posters that it would be good to let him know how his comments made you feel, and that they weren't appropriate).

Hugs to you both.
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#25 of 72 Old 06-01-2007, 07:56 PM
 
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I have 3 circ'd boys....with the last baby i put my foot down and said no more. DH fought with me but in the end I won--DS4 is intact. Im still very upset that the other boys were circ'd, especially DS3 . My DH even watched DS2s circ and still wanted to do it to DS3 & 4.

Just stay strong and dont let your DH bully you into something you will regret
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#26 of 72 Old 06-02-2007, 12:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Clarinet View Post
Mark all the clothes you bring to the hospital with "do not circumcise" on them. Bring a permanent marker and write it on all the disposable diapers in the room. In the bassinette - if they must take him for any reason at all - make sure it's written in a couple places. Better yet, insist on accompanying him everywhere they say he needs to go.
Put it in a birth plan, copy it and give it to your doctor and every person you come across in the hospital, whether they want to see it or not. Bring a red marker to write "do not circumcise" on the consent form and any other paperwork. I also like the idea of writing it on the baby's clothes and diapers, you can also buy a newborn T-shirt from NoCirc that has the words and symbol big and clear.

Stay strong mama!!! He sounds a lot like my sister's husband, but he eventually, gave in to keeping baby intact.
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#27 of 72 Old 06-02-2007, 12:09 AM
 
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(((Hugs))) What a difficult situation...I'm sorry you're going through this.

I agree with what others have said, belittling you, calling you names, and literally threatening to go behind your back and do something that is clearly so upsetting to you you're already in tears is not a discussion. I would go so far as to call it emotionally abusive, and I would confront him with it.

I might even be tempted to say something like...

"It's not okay to talk to me like this. I deserve respect. Our son will be born perfect, no medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision.

The foreskin comes standard; a whole penis is the default.

Unless you can convince me in a calm & compelling manner that circumcision is necessary, it's not getting done, period.

Threatening to go behind my back and perpetuating something I consider to be abuse on our baby is unacceptable. Over. My. Dead. Body.

If you *ever* hurt one of our children like that we'll leave you so fast your head will spin."

Good luck,

Jen
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#28 of 72 Old 06-02-2007, 12:17 AM
 
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It's NOT cleaner b/c the penis is fused.
Exactly. Would you consider your fingernail beds to be dirty? I know what you're going through. Let him know you are PASSIONATE about this for the safety of your baby. Don't pester him to death but don't give up, either.

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He said it was more painfull to have it done as an adult, even though I have read the opposite here.
Right on. Adults get pain meds. Babies get nothing.
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#29 of 72 Old 06-02-2007, 12:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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HOLY S***, I thik he has relented!
I'm exhausted tonight, so don't want topush the issue. But we did talk tonight and although he still says he wants him to look like him, it was much more lighthearted and said he would let it go...if he could name him. Then I said, well, nothing hideous.
He joked that he liked Rock.
I don't care at this point-as long as he stays intact!
I'll update tomorrow! But so far, so good for tonight!
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#30 of 72 Old 06-02-2007, 12:27 AM
 
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Alright!!! Maybe he just needed to think on it a little.
My dh was super resistant at first, but eventually relented, and now is convinced that circumcision is one of the worst evils of the world. :
You never know, huh?
I'm so glad that he seems more open tonight. I truly hope, for you and yours, that he will continue to be this way.

Homeschooling mom of 2 rambunctious, loving, spectacular boys, wife to an incredible man who has been my best friend on this journey <3

 

 

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