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#31 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 10:22 PM
 
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I think circ. is awful and horrible. And while I might not end a friendship I don't think I would ever see the person the same again. It would be hard to respect them for making such a horrible and idiotic decision as to circ. their newborn son. It goes against all reason. I think I would probably just let the friendship die as friendships sometimes do. Yeah it would be wimpy but I think they'd get the idea without me telling them.

As for cultural blinders I think I can speak to that. I never really had a concept of circumsicion when living in the US. I lived in Ireland for a long time and it was only when talking to Irish friends and family when someone said ' do you know what they do to their little boys there (we live in the US now) ?!' with complete horror. Our Irish friends and family are horrified and disgusted by it, don't understand it, and think people who do it are ignorant genital mutilators.

Having said, I am sure none of them could compare it to the horrors of pure long term neglect and abuse such as cigarette burns. And it is insulting and a diservice to those poor children who have to live in situations like that and suffer the long term affects. My MIL was a social work and my SIL a teacher in the worst parts of Dublin. I am sure if I asked them which they'd rather see - the abused neglected child of junkies or a cared for and loved child that was circ'd at birth I think I know which one they'd choose. And they are not culturally blinded.
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#32 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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And what exactly is the difference between a cigarette burn (which leaves a scar only), or being left in the same diaper for 4 days (causing sores and pain, possible scarring and infection but no tissue lost), or lack of food (which can be made up later and which leaves no obvious signs at all) and a genital mutilation, which removes a large amount of erogenous tissue permanently and which is constantly re-opened, torn and messed about with for several years?
First I want to say that this is not a close friend. However, this is someone that relied on my a lot during her pregnancies--the first was a miscarriage and even though we were not close I was the one she called first and told, and asked question to. She and I have very different lifestyles to bgin with--not a whole lot in common. But, she did listen to me alot and I do feel as if I have made a diiference in many things she has chosen to do. She went out and got the Sears Baby Book, not on my rec, but b/c she noticed I had given it to another co-worker and said good things about it. I hope she will continue to come to me for guidance. This has definitely changed the dynamics for me but I am not ready to give up on her yet. I do not think its crazy howvere to not be able to be friends with someone b/c of their choice--if we were closer I would probably feel differently.
Now as far as abuse goes, I do believe it is abuse and the wounds themselves are very similar, howvere it is what typically goes along with the two that is very different. Parents that burn their children usually display a pattern of abuse which I believe has a much more profound effect on a child. Also, neglect,--being left in a diaper or not fed for days would actually be much more detrimental to a child, an infant-emotionally than physical abuse. I have worked with kids that have attachment disorders and feel very strongly that the emotional abuse that goes along with forms of neglect is much more damaging to children than even being beaten on a regular basis.

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#33 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 10:30 PM
 
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The whole "there are worse things" argument is just a red herring anyway.

There are always worse things. Thats the way humans seem to work. Think of the most horrible thing you can think of...I can guarentee theres something WORSE out there. Does that make the thing you thought of any better? NOPE!

Like I said, red herring!

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#34 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There are always worse things though, thats the thing. There are things that are more damaging, but it does not negate the orginal damage done. I also feel that intent needs to be considered. But maybe I am alone in that thought.

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#35 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 10:34 PM
 
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There are always worse things though, thats the thing. There are things that are more damaging, but it does not negate the orginal damage done. I also feel that intent needs to be considered. But maybe I am alone in that thought.
The child, however, doesnt understand or experience intent.

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#36 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sure we do. My mom used belts to "spank" me. Hurt like hell. Caused physical and emotional damage. But I know that my mom is horrified by the idea now. She did what she thought parents did to " misbehaving" kids. She did what was done to her. I understand her intent and have forgiven her completely.

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#37 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 10:41 PM
 
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You can't see it because you have cultural blinkers on. It is people like yourself who just can't see that these babies need protecting just as much as the others, who allow this abomination to continue.


I really dont understand why she cant see the difference. It actually really irks me. :

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#38 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Daisyuk
You can't see it because you have cultural blinkers on. It is people like yourself who just can't see that these babies need protecting just as much as the others, who allow this abomination to continue.
Where was it said that these babies need less protection. All babies need protetion from abuse. I do believe that we all want to protect all babies from being circed--thats why we are here right. I guess some of us jsut don't agree on how best to provide that protection. If any of you have a way that provides 100% protection--let me know cause I have not figured it out yet!

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#39 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 10:49 PM
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Phatchristy, you made the distinction beautifully.
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#40 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 10:56 PM
 
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I really dont understand why she cant see the difference. It actually really irks me. :
That is fine but you could speak directly to me instead of about me, and I would be happy to discuss.
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#41 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 10:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
The whole "there are worse things" argument is just a red herring anyway.

You're right, and I don't even know how the conversation got that way, , I know they get on tangents, but you're right, it is a red herring and it doesn't matter.

So silly to argue about 2 horrible things,

But I'm glad a couple people are here that can relate a bit to what I meant.
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#42 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 11:01 PM
 
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I think that we can agree that like neglect & abuse, circumsicion should also be illegal.
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#43 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 11:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamamillet View Post
Sure we do. My mom used belts to "spank" me. Hurt like hell. Caused physical and emotional damage. But I know that my mom is horrified by the idea now. She did what she thought parents did to " misbehaving" kids. She did what was done to her. I understand her intent and have forgiven her completely.
I should have been more clear: the newborn infant doesn't experience intent.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#44 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 11:02 PM
 
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I think that we can agree that like neglect & abuse, circumsicion should also be illegal.
Yes.
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#45 of 49 Old 06-26-2007, 11:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by karina5 View Post
You're right, and I don't even know how the conversation got that way, , I know they get on tangents, but you're right, it is a red herring and it doesn't matter.

So silly to argue about 2 horrible things,

But I'm glad a couple people are here that can relate a bit to what I meant.


I think when it gets down to convos like this, it's just getting into the guts of inactivism. Everyone's got a different version of the guts, but we're all down in there. Maybe some people go "deeper" and others don't, thats all, ANd its not good or bad...it just is.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#46 of 49 Old 06-27-2007, 01:33 AM
 
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I'm sorry you felt so upset by this thread, karina. I know it's hard to remember that we're disagreeing about thoughts and beliefs, not personally. I don't think I'm wording this right so I'll shut up now. But I hope that you are able to separate from it a bit, and feel better.
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#47 of 49 Old 06-27-2007, 01:42 AM
 
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sorry for the little one mamamillet. hopefully you'll still continue to be a postiive influence on her parenting despite this decision.

l, <>< wife to my sweetie, proud mama to 3 cubs, 2 who clw & 1 that i i ep for . baby was evicted early by induction due to severe pre-e/hellp syndrome
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#48 of 49 Old 06-27-2007, 12:30 PM
 
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I am very sorry for that poor sweet baby boy.: I wish I didn't have to keep hearing about babies being cut like this. It breaks my heart, and I hug my little ones closer.
I have been lucky: I have no friends who circumcised their sons. I honestly do not know what I would do if that happened. I honestly would find it very difficult to remain friends with someone who did such a horrendous thing to their own baby. But right now I am not going to sit around angrily discussing what I would do if I were to be in that predicament, and judging and making war on others who say might still keep that friend if they were in that predicament.
I remember once someone was angrily telling me that they were annoyed with someone because although they left their baby boy intact, they didn't do it for the "right reasons" and didn't know just how monstrous circumcision is. I do very firmly believe that everyone needs to be educated about the horrors of genital mutilation. But I was surprised that instead of celebrating that another baby was healthfully intact, this person was still choosing to be angry and find fault with the situation.
I am surprised at the attacking going on here among mamas who all believe the same thing: that circumcision is horrific, abusive, and leaves lifelong physical and emotional trauma to children. We are all mamas who are protecting our children from it, and doing our best to protect others.
I agree that circumcision is very serious, it is most definitely abuse, and is something to be very angry about. I am angry about circumcision. But this "which is worse" argument is just so unnecessary, and it is unproductive to be angry at other mamas who are so obviously against circumcision too.
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#49 of 49 Old 06-27-2007, 12:36 PM
 
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I personally would not consider her a friend anymore. I cannot continue friendships with people who abuse their children-even though the information was provided for them.
Yup, I agree. This woman knew the OP felt super strongly about this issue and still did it. If my friend felt super strongly about something, I'd pay really close attention and learn as much as I could before I did what she felt strongly against. I'd really work hard to figure out why my friend would feel that way. I wouldn't just brush it off like it didn't matter.

Find other friends. And
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