Egypt outlaws all forms of female circumcision - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-28-2007, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/07062...circumcision_1



Her mother accused the woman doctor of negligence, charging that her daughter's death was linked to the anaesthetic and not the removal of the clitoris, for which she had paid 50 pounds (nearly nine dollars). Police have arrested both women.

I don't think I even have to point out the stark irony of that last sentence to you all. Circumcisers never blame the act, it's always something else.
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Old 06-28-2007, 03:37 PM
 
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just came here to post that too. you beat me to it.
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Old 06-28-2007, 04:10 PM
 
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just came here to post that too. you beat me to it.
:

It's a step in the right direction.
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Old 06-28-2007, 04:12 PM
 
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The way it reads, someone who doesn't know about the different forms of FGM might think that it always involves clitorodectomy, hence strengthening the misperception that MGM and FGM are never comparable.
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Old 06-28-2007, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The way it reads, someone who doesn't know about the different forms of FGM might think that it always involves clitorodectomy, hence strengthening the misperception that MGM and FGM are never comparable.
Yeah, I agree.

They made it a point to say that the new law bans "all" female circ but then only talk about one kind.:
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Old 06-28-2007, 04:35 PM
 
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is there a place where they will post the actual written context of the law for us to review?
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Old 06-28-2007, 05:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Papai View Post
Her mother accused the woman doctor of negligence, charging that her daughter's death was linked to the anaesthetic and not the removal of the clitoris, for which she had paid 50 pounds (nearly nine dollars). Police have arrested both women.

I don't think I even have to point out the stark irony of that last sentence to you all. Circumcisers never blame the act, it's always something else.
She may even be right about it being the anaesthesia that caused the death. There is always a risk of death with anaesthesia that is why you shouldn't subject children to unneccesary surgical procedures.

The fact that this procedure in and of itself does irreversible harm just makes it that much worse that someone would risk anaesthesia to do it. :

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Old 06-28-2007, 06:17 PM
 
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What I don't get-- or what really upsets me-- is that the article mentions nothing about male circumcision.. granted, the girl who died was not male, but I always wish that there be mention of male genital mutilation as well-- at the very least, to make those who've never even given it a thought, give it a thought.
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Old 06-28-2007, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What I don't get-- or what really upsets me-- is that the article mentions nothing about male circumcision.. granted, the girl who died was not male, but I always wish that there be mention of male genital mutilation as well-- at the very least, to make those who've never even given it a thought, give it a thought.
Well, this is Egypt, a majority muslim country, and most muslims are strict adherents to male circ for religious reasons.
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Old 06-28-2007, 06:49 PM
 
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This is wonderful news. Now if the US could just follow suit and find the courage to face & end the MGM crisis here.
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Old 06-28-2007, 06:51 PM
 
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Makes me so sad for all my Egyptian friends. Once I realized that they were all circumcised, I really felt so sorry for what happened to them and my attitude towards them changed because I realized that they were "ok" with it. : One friend is having a terrible time getting pregnant and carrying children to term.

I always wonder when they take their children back "home" if they are taking them to get cut. :

SAHM to Ivan 6/10/05 who says  signcirc1.gifand Matilda 1/31/08 who says saynovax.gif:::

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Old 06-28-2007, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Makes me so sad for all my Egyptian friends. Once I realized that they were all circumcised, I really felt so sorry for what happened to them and my attitude towards them changed because I realized that they were "ok" with it. : One friend is having a terrible time getting pregnant and carrying children to term.

I always wonder when they take their children back "home" if they are taking them to get cut.
:

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. :
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Old 06-28-2007, 08:24 PM
 
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Well, this is Egypt, a majority muslim country, and most muslims are strict adherents to male circ for religious reasons.
It was practiced in Egypt long before Mohammed was born.

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Old 06-28-2007, 10:16 PM
 
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This is a huge step forward for ending the whole crazy cutting game everywhere.

Just close your eyes and see the same headline with your own country and "male" inserted:

U.S. Bans all Male Circumcision

Sounds pretty good, doesn't it. I'm sure the intactivists in Egypt felt frustrated and thwarted for a long time but now they have this miracle. We'll get ours too.
Keep on educating.
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:26 PM
 
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A major hurdle in any law against MGM is that circumcision is written into the Old Testament and a law will be seen as anti-religious freedom. FGM isn't written into any religion as a madate.
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is a huge step forward for ending the whole crazy cutting game everywhere.

Just close your eyes and see the same headline with your own country and "male" inserted:

U.S. Bans all Male Circumcision

Sounds pretty good, doesn't it. I'm sure the intactivists in Egypt felt frustrated and thwarted for a long time but now they have this miracle. We'll get ours too.
Keep on educating.
Unfortunately, I'm almost certain that the "intactivists" in Egypt see nothing wrong with MGM. : Religion and culture reasons are acceptable for MGM but not for FGM.
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:16 AM
 
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The line between 'religion' & 'culture' is pretty blurry, in reality. If the people practicing FGM believe it is for religious reasons, it is for religious reasons. No one sect gets to say to everyone else, "Well, my book says a) is mandatory but your book says a) is mandatory & b) is merely optional & desirable, so your reasons are less religious than cultural. Sorry."

My religious beliefs says all child torture is forbidden- so how many adherents do you have to have to get to make the rules for everyone else?

This is a matter of law, not religion, & why I fight rote school prayer at an American public high school football game as heartily as I would adopting Shar'ia. You cut your own genitals off & have a party & call it religious if you choose. You do it to an objecting minor and you break the law of the land.

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT RELIGION. No more so than if a secularized Israel forbids MGM. This is a thread about Law. Lex rex, my friends. Lex rex.
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:10 AM
 
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I have always said that, if we take care of ending MGM in N.America,
the cutting of females will happen as if by magic. Never doubt that,
even tho it's not apparent how the dots are linked, they are linked.
We make a difference every time we speak up, write a letter, send a
post or grant an interview. Keep on working folks, we're getting this
job done.
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:11 AM
 
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Most FGM done in Africa are done mainly for religious reasons. Ofcourse the other "spices"; cleaner&healthier are added to it - just like with MGM in USA.

There is a fantastic essay about this written by a muslim but I don't dare to post the link since it might go under religious discussion.
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Most FGM done in Africa are done mainly for religious reasons. Ofcourse the other "spices"; cleaner&healthier are added to it - just like with MGM in USA.

There is a fantastic essay about this written by a muslim but I don't dare to post the link since it might go under religious discussion.
Can you PM it to me?
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Old 06-29-2007, 12:11 PM
 
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Can you PM it to me?

I'd like it as well.
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Old 06-29-2007, 12:26 PM
 
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The line between 'religion' & 'culture' is pretty blurry, in reality. If the people practicing FGM believe it is for religious reasons, it is for religious reasons. No one sect gets to say to everyone else, "Well, my book says a) is mandatory but your book says a) is mandatory & b) is merely optional & desirable, so your reasons are less religious than cultural. Sorry."
:

This gets to me in the argument. If we claim that female circ is not religious then we enter the game of certifying religions.

-Angela
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Old 06-29-2007, 12:28 PM
 
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Most FGM done in Africa are done mainly for religious reasons. Ofcourse the other "spices"; cleaner&healthier are added to it - just like with MGM in USA.

There is a fantastic essay about this written by a muslim but I don't dare to post the link since it might go under religious discussion.
I'm of the understanding that we're allowed to discuss religious FEMALE circ. Just not religious MALE circ.

-Angela
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Old 06-29-2007, 04:42 PM
 
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Well I will just say...


hallelujah!!!!!

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Old 07-01-2007, 12:18 AM
 
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This forum does not host discussion on religious circumcision - either male or female.

We are free to discuss cultural circumcision.

If the statement that 97% of females in Egypt are circumcised is correct, I am assuming this is a cultural practice there. Correct me if I am mistaken.

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Old 07-01-2007, 01:54 AM
 
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If a person circs for *personal* religious reasons is it religious?

How is the line drawn between personal religious and cultural?

-Angela
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Old 07-01-2007, 02:17 AM
 
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This forum does not host discussion on religious circumcision - either male or female.

We are free to discuss cultural circumcision.

If the statement that 97% of females in Egypt are circumcised is correct, I am assuming this is a cultural practice there. Correct me if I am mistaken.
I don't know if you statistic is correct, but I do know that Egyptians do not all belong to the same religion. I also know that there are families who have lived in Egypt for thousands of years but still consider themselves greek and not egyptian. Also male circ has been practiced in egypt since most Egyptians still worshiped Ra.

So if your statistic is correct I would think it was cultural.

However I'm with Angela on that my opinion of whether it's cultural or religios isn't what matters. It's whether the people doing it veiw it as cultural or religious that matters. I don't know how they would answer.

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Old 07-01-2007, 05:02 AM
 
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If the statement that 97% of females in Egypt are circumcised is correct, I am assuming this is a cultural practice there. Correct me if I am mistaken.
Puppyfluffer. It is also a religious practise. There was recently a case in Norway where imams adviced young girl to get circumcised based on RELIGIOUS reasons. It was secretly taped. This case started a chain reaction, revealing that there are many muslim religious leaders who are advising muslims to cut girl. Hundreds of girls have been taken out from Norway, circumcised and brought back. Now Norway is punishing these imams if they advice for FGM and Norwegian law has been changed so that in case there is suspicion that girl is taken out of the country to get circumcised police can forbid the travelling.


We can circle around this issue as much as we want and of course MDC can make it's policy however it wants but if we are interested what the people believe who practise it they will tell you that it is FIRST religious practise then hygienic&medical.

We get lot of refugees from countries where FGM is practised here in Europe - we have all the time cases where girls are taken back to Egypt&Somalia etc. to get circumcised because of the advice of imams. We get accused that Europeans limit religious freedom of muslims because we have outlawed FGM.

There are muslim school of thoughts where it is believed that circumcising both girls and boys is mandatory. In some schools it is adviced and in some schools it is not done at all.Then there are schools where male circumcision is mandatory but FGM is 'makrumah'(pleasing for husband).


Al-I'tissam, an Islamic magazine from Cairo stated this to protests against the WHO, accusing the organization of "distorting the truth of Islam"; Al-I'tissam requests Al-Azhar and all religious scholars to "open their eyes and be on the alert for those ideas coming to us from outside, so we can fight them, prove their foolishness and save Islamic customs".

From http://www.munfw.org/

"Commonly, when we think of FGM, we think only of African countries. Certainly the highest number of victims are in African countries, but FGM historically occurs or has occurred in many countries, including the Arabian Peninsula, Asia, Australia, France, England and the United States.

In most countries, FGM is practiced out of local custom, for religious reasons, or as a traditional rite of passage. "

As someone who worked with refugee for a long time I can say in all honesty that for many it would be very insulting(from religious POV)the way MDC allows FGM to be bashed. But feelings of those people can be easily ignored since they don't have computers or english language skills - how conveniant.
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Old 07-01-2007, 01:02 PM
 
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Thanks for that post, kxsiven. Your participation brings a broader element
to the discussions on this forum. Much appreciated.
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Old 07-01-2007, 01:11 PM
 
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Thank you for saying so. This has been my understanding for quite a long time and is exactly what bothers me about the double standard, not so much at MDC but in US society.

I understand that there are muslims who do NOT feel there is a religious call to circ girls, but there are also those who DO.

-Angela
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