Dr. Refuses our family for complaining about forced retraction! - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 54 Old 07-29-2007, 07:33 PM
 
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ETA- you know, I had thought of taking pics but decided that it was too invasive an action. My son is ok with talking about it, but having me taking pictures of his penis or worse - showing them to anyone - would be over the line. I'll have to trust that my son and I are articulate and balanced enough to make the point without that step.
I can totally understand your son not wanting pics! I was just thinking of the angle of your needing to prove that harm was done. Seems like the NP and the whole practice will deny everything. Maybe if you find a good doctor who could do an exam asap while there is still evidence of the trauma, he could write an affidavit that he did indeed observe harm on such-and-such date.

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#32 of 54 Old 07-29-2007, 07:37 PM
 
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Retracting of the foreskin like happened to the op's son is sexual assault. No if ands or buts. The equevilent of retracting the foreskin is the same as a invasive vaginal exam.
I disagree. It is more than a stretch to call a medical exam sexual assault.

Regardless of whether the nurse's actions were misguided or a result of misinformation, one could reasonably (and successfully) argue that her actions still fall well within the boundaries of a normal medical exam and she was doing her due diligence by examining the boy for what she thought could be a medical problem.

I guess I'm mystified by the retraction obsession in the U.S. I've lived all over the world with my children and never encountered the belief that a one-time incident of retraction with cause horrible permanent damage and the person who did it is evil and deserves to be destroyed professionally and financially.
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#33 of 54 Old 07-29-2007, 08:11 PM
 
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You know, Id be inclined to agree with you, however...

It not ONE time, its to every child lucky enough to be intact that comes under her care. And its not due diligence in looking for what she thought was a problem, it is contradictory to the AAP. Its not normal care, correct care, or prudent in any way shape or form to an evaluation, and for the patients of hers that cannot retract, no doubt the next step, or at least if not her specifically but of care providers in this country, is to order an circ consult with a urologist.

THAT is WRONG. And the letter was rightfully sent, and if they do what they say they will do in the response, train the nurse in the correct care of a intact penis on a prepubescent boy, then there will be no problem. But instead the care providers in this country put their head in the sand and do whatever the damn well please, and that will not stop unless we make them stop, and apparently in this case, asking for this respect during an exam is not good enough.

Parents cannot continue to look the other way when their child is treated incorrectly and I dont care if there is one nano of a percent chance that lasting damage can be done by ANY procedure someone performs on my child if it is UNNECESSARY per the guidelines outlined in the medical establishment that represents them, in this case the AAP.
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#34 of 54 Old 07-29-2007, 08:53 PM
 
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They are definitely covering their asses, cowards. I can only imagine how upset my non-retractable 6 yr. old would be if someone retracted him (it would be painful), it is assualt. Assualts have and do happen under the guise of a medical exam. I'm upset to hear the same ignorance and abuse goes on in other countries as well, intact ones no less. Why the obsession with retracting little boys?

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#35 of 54 Old 07-29-2007, 09:36 PM
 
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If a doc inserted a finger into dd's vagina to "stretch" or "check for infection" I would consider that assault. Boy's foreskins do not need to be stretched or retracted to check for ANYTHING. It IS assault. It IS a big deal. Nobody, boy, girl, man, woman deserves to have their genitals mishandled by ANYONE. Medical professionals are not exempt and do not have free reign to touch people without regard to their feelings.

Even during my pelvic exams, docs have the decency to TELL ME what they are going to do..."now you'll feel my hands on the outside...now I'm going to _____". If at any point I didn't want that to happen, I have a second or two to say no. This boy was not told what was going to happen, and did not have an opportunity to protest. The NP LIED to him and to the OP and secretively assaulted him anyway.

I'm sick of the attitude that doctors can touch people in their most private regions without regard to the patients feelings and assume that by virtue of their presence, the patient has implied consent to genital mishandling. No doctor touches me ANYWHERE without asking, much less the genitals. this NP was TOLD not to touch and disobeyed. that is assault. period. To imply that it is no big deal implies that the boy's feelings are invalid and that he is expected to "get over it". I can't believe anyone would suggest that. This OP is doing a great thing by reporting this and hopefully it will prevent other children from this kind of assault.


ETA: And the "it was just once" argument is just great. I'm sure all the victims out there who were assaulted "only once" suffer no ill effects. Really it isn't until the 3rd or 4th time that it starts to affect you. (eye roll)
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#36 of 54 Old 07-29-2007, 10:45 PM
 
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You know, Id be inclined to agree with you, however...

It not ONE time, its to every child lucky enough to be intact that comes under her care. And its not due diligence in looking for what she thought was a problem, it is contradictory to the AAP. Its not normal care, correct care, or prudent in any way shape or form to an evaluation, and for the patients of hers that cannot retract, no doubt the next step, or at least if not her specifically but of care providers in this country, is to order an circ consult with a urologist.

THAT is WRONG. And the letter was rightfully sent, and if they do what they say they will do in the response, train the nurse in the correct care of a intact penis on a prepubescent boy, then there will be no problem. But instead the care providers in this country put their head in the sand and do whatever the damn well please, and that will not stop unless we make them stop, and apparently in this case, asking for this respect during an exam is not good enough.

Parents cannot continue to look the other way when their child is treated incorrectly and I dont care if there is one nano of a percent chance that lasting damage can be done by ANY procedure someone performs on my child if it is UNNECESSARY per the guidelines outlined in the medical establishment that represents them, in this case the AAP.

well said.

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#37 of 54 Old 07-29-2007, 10:47 PM
 
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This one is actually a very good first case.
  • the child in question is old enough to have a say in people touching his genitals
  • she had been warned on many occasions not to play with his penis
  • she seemed to deliberately try to hide what she was doing
  • she has a specific questionnaire to fill out which never mentioned the penis
  • the child is old enough to express what happened to him in a grownup manner
Unfortunately I still doubt that the police will take it seriously.
I agree that the police would probably not see this as their area. I also think the media would not want to get involved in a dispute between a doctor and patient.

However, I think incorrigible would do very well to file a complaint with the nurses licensing board -- and emphasizing the fact that the nurse disregarded the parent's instructions and intentionally went against the parent's wishes. That is poor care, and it's unacceptable, and a licensing board should take that very seriously.
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#38 of 54 Old 07-29-2007, 10:51 PM
 
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You know, Id be inclined to agree with you, however...

It not ONE time, its to every child lucky enough to be intact that comes under her care. And its not due diligence in looking for what she thought was a problem, it is contradictory to the AAP. Its not normal care, correct care, or prudent in any way shape or form to an evaluation, and for the patients of hers that cannot retract, no doubt the next step, or at least if not her specifically but of care providers in this country, is to order an circ consult with a urologist.

THAT is WRONG. And the letter was rightfully sent, and if they do what they say they will do in the response, train the nurse in the correct care of a intact penis on a prepubescent boy, then there will be no problem. But instead the care providers in this country put their head in the sand and do whatever the damn well please, and that will not stop unless we make them stop, and apparently in this case, asking for this respect during an exam is not good enough.

Parents cannot continue to look the other way when their child is treated incorrectly and I dont care if there is one nano of a percent chance that lasting damage can be done by ANY procedure someone performs on my child if it is UNNECESSARY per the guidelines outlined in the medical establishment that represents them, in this case the AAP.
You know, I think the biggest wrong is not that she retracted, but that she did so SPECIFICALLY AGAINST THE PARENT'S CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS. That is unacceptable care. I think many health professionals aren't familiar with intact care, but to defiantly retract when the professional has been explicitly told not to means the professional is unworthy of patients' and parents' trust.
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#39 of 54 Old 07-29-2007, 10:53 PM
 
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If a doc inserted a finger into dd's vagina to "stretch" or "check for infection" I would consider that assault. Boy's foreskins do not need to be stretched or retracted to check for ANYTHING. It IS assault. It IS a big deal. Nobody, boy, girl, man, woman deserves to have their genitals mishandled by ANYONE. Medical professionals are not exempt and do not have free reign to touch people without regard to their feelings.

Even during my pelvic exams, docs have the decency to TELL ME what they are going to do..."now you'll feel my hands on the outside...now I'm going to _____". If at any point I didn't want that to happen, I have a second or two to say no. This boy was not told what was going to happen, and did not have an opportunity to protest. The NP LIED to him and to the OP and secretively assaulted him anyway.

I'm sick of the attitude that doctors can touch people in their most private regions without regard to the patients feelings and assume that by virtue of their presence, the patient has implied consent to genital mishandling. No doctor touches me ANYWHERE without asking, much less the genitals. this NP was TOLD not to touch and disobeyed. that is assault. period. To imply that it is no big deal implies that the boy's feelings are invalid and that he is expected to "get over it". I can't believe anyone would suggest that. This OP is doing a great thing by reporting this and hopefully it will prevent other children from this kind of assault.


ETA: And the "it was just once" argument is just great. I'm sure all the victims out there who were assaulted "only once" suffer no ill effects. Really it isn't until the 3rd or 4th time that it starts to affect you. (eye roll)
Very well said.
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#40 of 54 Old 07-29-2007, 11:00 PM
 
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When my 4 yo was having testicular surgery, we told the surgeon verbally and in writing not to retract his foreskin. We were told specifically by a lawyer and by a different doctor that had the surgeon gone against our clear directive, verbally or in writing, that her actions would be considered medical malpractice by law.

The OP told the nurse clearly not to retract, and the nurse violated the verbal instructions.
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#41 of 54 Old 07-29-2007, 11:42 PM
 
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I disagree. It is more than a stretch to call a medical exam sexual assault.

Regardless of whether the nurse's actions were misguided or a result of misinformation, one could reasonably (and successfully) argue that her actions still fall well within the boundaries of a normal medical exam and she was doing her due diligence by examining the boy for what she thought could be a medical problem.

I guess I'm mystified by the retraction obsession in the U.S. I've lived all over the world with my children and never encountered the belief that a one-time incident of retraction with cause horrible permanent damage and the person who did it is evil and deserves to be destroyed professionally and financially.
Not necessarily true...when I transferred to the hospital from my HB, I was forced into internal fetal monitoring and a VE that I refused. The monitoring was court ordered, the VE and the dozen times or more they decided to 'reposition' the IFM by forcibly holding my legs apart was not. I filed sexual assault charges against the CNM on that part and would have gone forward with them (and according to the judge who was acting as mediator for all parts of my lawsuit would have gone forward with a probable conviction) had I not agreed to stand down as part of the mediation process to settle to suits.

So yes, it can be sexual assault and this boy was old enough to understand what was happening and to have consented or not...besides, his mother who had medical proxy, did not consent...it is sexual assault and should be treated as such.

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#42 of 54 Old 07-30-2007, 12:21 AM
 
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You know, Id be inclined to agree with you, however...

It not ONE time, its to every child lucky enough to be intact that comes under her care. And its not due diligence in looking for what she thought was a problem, it is contradictory to the AAP. Its not normal care, correct care, or prudent in any way shape or form to an evaluation, and for the patients of hers that cannot retract, no doubt the next step, or at least if not her specifically but of care providers in this country, is to order an circ consult with a urologist.

THAT is WRONG. And the letter was rightfully sent, and if they do what they say they will do in the response, train the nurse in the correct care of a intact penis on a prepubescent boy, then there will be no problem. But instead the care providers in this country put their head in the sand and do whatever the damn well please, and that will not stop unless we make them stop, and apparently in this case, asking for this respect during an exam is not good enough.

Parents cannot continue to look the other way when their child is treated incorrectly and I dont care if there is one nano of a percent chance that lasting damage can be done by ANY procedure someone performs on my child if it is UNNECESSARY per the guidelines outlined in the medical establishment that represents them, in this case the AAP.
: It is an exhausting fight, but applause to OP for not backing
down!

BTW... I added the practice that threw this poor family out to the list of parties to send a copy of my letter to (which includes foreskin development and care instructions........)
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#43 of 54 Old 07-30-2007, 04:00 AM
 
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she did so SPECIFICALLY AGAINST THE PARENT'S CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS.
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and emphasizing the fact that the nurse disregarded the parent's instructions and intentionally went against the parent's wishes.
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The OP told the nurse clearly not to retract, and the nurse violated the verbal instructions.
You all are assuming facts that are not in evidence. In the OPs own words:
Quote:
One of the little check boxes on the form is about genitals. So, she tells us specifically what she's going to do. Only the testicles, blah blah. VERY clear about what's going to happen. His sister was in the room though so she was insistent that he turn so she couldn't see and stand on the other side of the examining table and stuff. It was weird the way she handled it, but she's one of those kind of judgmental know it alls that spouts the worst kind of mainstream drivel and doesn't even know why. I find it best to just smile and nod and let those people have their way so long as it's not hurting anything. And she was SO specific about what she would be doing and that she would ONLY touch his testicles...and I was of the impression he was fully retracted not just partially. I just wanted the whole ordeal over with as quickly as possible. No harm could come from just letting her have her paranoid way, right?
I don't see anything in the OP's narrative indicating that she issued any kind of prohibition against retracting, gave any verbal instructions, or expressed her wishes in any way. On the contrary, she took a passive role and just let the nurse conduct the exam as she saw fit. In my opinion, the OP also mishandled the situation by neglecting to speak up beforehand, and is therefore equally responsible for what happened to her son.
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#44 of 54 Old 07-30-2007, 11:00 AM
 
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^
While I see your point, I fail to understand why you chose to omit this while boldfacing the OP's quotes:
So, she tells us specifically what she's going to do. Only the testicles, blah blah. VERY clear about what's going to happen.
and
"And she was SO specific about what she would be doing and that she would ONLY touch his testicles".

I still don't think that it'a fair to place the blame on the mama here. In hindsight, I am sure that she wishes that she had pitched a fit prior to the retraction. HOWEVER, the nurse gave no indication that she was going to do anything to her son's penis. last I checked, the testicles and penis - while in close proximity to each other - are not the same. There is no reason to assume that a testicle exam is going to lead to the forced retraction of a child's foreskin.

incorrigible, I'm so sorry that this happened to your son and I can't imagine the rage you must feel to be asked to leave the practice when THEY are in the wrong. You have every right to be outraged. I don't have a son, but have attended births as a doula, sister, and friend, I see caregivers perform all kinds of interventions and procedures against a client's wishes and without their consent, and it is infuriating. I view those invasive procedures as sexual assault, and your son's forced retraction as well.
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#45 of 54 Old 07-30-2007, 01:38 PM
 
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sorry this happened to your little guy.

i hope some good can somehow come of this though.

l, <>< wife to my sweetie, proud mama to 3 cubs, 2 who clw & 1 that i i ep for . baby was evicted early by induction due to severe pre-e/hellp syndrome
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#46 of 54 Old 07-30-2007, 01:41 PM
 
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I bet the pediatrician is just covering their ass. If the nurse did it again to your child they would be open for all kinds of trouble. Their lawyer probably suggested the letter.
That was my first reaction, too.

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#47 of 54 Old 07-30-2007, 02:21 PM
 
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We should not have to tell every doctor we take our kids to not to assault them. I do, because I have heard too many horror stories like this one. But, the absence of a specific prohibition against assault does not equal consent to said assault.

I continue to be amazed that people, especially here at MDC, would think otherwise.

Medical professionals are expected to be "above board" and, correct me if I am wrong, don't they subscribe to a strict code of ethics because of the intimate nature of their relationship with patients? Ulla, do you feel that we should all take a stand with our doctors before examinations and demand that they not assault us during their exam? Why are we as a society then, so appalled when a doctor abuses his position and assaults women under anesthesia? They never specifically asked him not to do that...

ETA: As herbanmama pointed out, in the OP's case the NP did state exactly what she would do and then proceeded to assault the boy anyway, after forcing him to turn away from his mother so she could not watch the exam. Even talking about the specifics beforehand did not stop this NP from committing assault.

Unfortunately, cases like the OP's continue to erode faith in the medical establishment and make it very difficult to establish the trusting relationship that every patient should have with their doctor. This antagonistic relationship may lead patients to not seek care when it is truly needed.
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#48 of 54 Old 07-31-2007, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#49 of 54 Old 07-31-2007, 05:52 PM
 
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Unfortunately, cases like the OP's continue to erode faith in the medical establishment and make it very difficult to establish the trusting relationship that every patient should have with their doctor. This antagonistic relationship may lead patients to not seek care when it is truly needed.
This is so true one time DS had a hair wrapped around the very tip of his foreskin and I worried that if I couldn't get it off myself and had to take him to the ER (I was scared of the idea of using scissors so close to things down there) that they would reccomend circing him. I managed to calm myself enough to simply unknot it, but it is rediculous to fear that the very people whom we are supposed to be able to go to in order to help and heal us may want to do harm far greater than the condition we went to see them with.

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#50 of 54 Old 07-31-2007, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#51 of 54 Old 07-31-2007, 09:32 PM
 
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it is rediculous to fear that the very people whom we are supposed to be able to go to in order to help and heal us may want to do harm far greater than the condition we went to see them with.
ITA! It is really sad this is a valid concern. We should be able to seek help and feel safe in doing so.
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#52 of 54 Old 07-31-2007, 10:48 PM
 
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From the OPs description of what actually happened it does indeed sound minor to me. If the little boy's reaction was "ouch" and then he later experienced a burning sensation when urinating, that is not serious. My oldest sons got his foreskin caught in a zipper and he was howling in pain all the way to the emergency room and bleeding profusely. At the emergency room the doctor had to retract a bit to evaluate the the wound. He need a few stitches on the tip of the foreskin. This all happened in Paris, France when my son was three years old. My son experienced no lasting problems. He has an active sex life with no issues.

My sons were born in France Tanzania, and Germany. In both France and Germany doctor's do occasionally push the foreskin back a bit to evaluate a complaint of pain.
It doesn't matter if the degree of physical harm done was little or great. Sexual molestation is sexual molestation. Why do docs feel the need to pull the foreskin back to "check" anyway? It's like they don't believe there is really a glans in there if they can't see it. :

And incorigible, I like your ds statement. Very well said.

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#53 of 54 Old 07-31-2007, 11:26 PM
 
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You all are assuming facts that are not in evidence. In the OPs own words:


I don't see anything in the OP's narrative indicating that she issued any kind of prohibition against retracting, gave any verbal instructions, or expressed her wishes in any way. On the contrary, she took a passive role and just let the nurse conduct the exam as she saw fit. In my opinion, the OP also mishandled the situation by neglecting to speak up beforehand, and is therefore equally responsible for what happened to her son.
That's a good and fair clarification. But it can't be denied that the nurse practitioner misled the mother and son as to what she intended to do during the exam. I still think it's fair to say she lied about the exam, and that still fits my description of poor quality of care. I don't think the responsibility is equal, although if the OP had been more explicit about her expectations, the situation may have been avoided. The nurse practitioner still lied and misled the patient and guardian.
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#54 of 54 Old 08-01-2007, 04:33 PM
 
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As horrible as it is, there is no justice.
I was terminated from care by my OB at 28 wks pregnant. I didn't get the mandatory by state 30 days of care, I was just out. I didn't receive prenatal care for months b/c they terminate me days before my next visit, which was canceled by them.

You can try your state board of medicine, but they followed the protocol of 30 day notice.

What I learned... I have rights to say no, but they also have the right to not accpet me as a patient. So be it... I found a hb mw and had a hba2c. The joke was on them

Find yourself an intact friendly doctor and forgettaboutit. I use a FP and I think our doc is probably intact although I would never ask (he's a deacon at our church). He is from Amish country and thinks HBs are normal occurances! And my CD are not unusual either... He is a great find.
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