ER doctor retracted my 2 year old. *4th update, spoke with Marilyn from NOCIRC* - Mothering Forums
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The Case Against Circumcision > ER doctor retracted my 2 year old. *4th update, spoke with Marilyn from NOCIRC*
Mama Poot's Avatar Mama Poot 04:23 PM 08-19-2007
Besides reporting the doctor, which I will do. I already read the warning sticky and as soon as I get all the information I will have that doctor send his letters. Here is the story: ( Oh and no flaming. I'm traumatised enough right now and had a nervous episode already. I know I'm the worst parent in the world for allowing this to happen, don't need to rub it in, k? )

Wednesday, Thursday. Paddy ran a fever of about 102. Had no other symptoms, no runny nose, no cough, nothing. I thought maybe he could be teething with 2nd year molars because he was drooling and chewing on things. So no big deal, we get through it. He gets better.
Sunday morning ( today ) early in the wee hours Paddy wakes twice crying. When he got up in the morning I took him to the potty to pee, and after a minute of crying and struggling he finally peed and screamed bloody murder. Okay so he's got a UTI. It's a Sunday, so off to urgent care we go. *His urine did not smell normal either* I've had enough UTI's in my own life to know that smell. We got him to pee in a cup at the hospital so they did not need to catheterize him. I went out to get everyone a bite to eat. As I pulled back into the parking lot my DH calls and says I need to come inside right away and talk to the doctor.
The doctor ( a sexist, ignorant UA violation ) accosts me and starts preaching about how my son has adhesions that are causing him pain, that he does not have an infection, but that the skin has pulled so tight that it is making it difficult to urinate. I start to get upset because I know that this could not possibly be the problem, that retraction was NOT the solution. The doctor became angry, belligerent, and hostile with me. I was crying and extremely upset. The doctor said he was "wasting his time waiting for me to make a decision", and kept insisting the only way to end Paddy's discomfort was to retract the foreskin. I felt cornered and threatened by both the doctor and my DH. Against my better judgment I gave the doctor permission to retract my son.
The damage is done, I can't go back in time and reverse it. I need to know what steps to take to make sure Paddy doesn't get an infection from this, and if his foreskin really was causing him pain, isn't there another way to make it more comfortable besides retracting it? What about that estrogen cream? I asked the doctor about all these things and he said "I've never heard of anything like that. I've seen this thousands of times and had to retract. It's the only way to fix it." Obviously we know that isn't true.
The doctor also said we had to keep cleaning under the foreskin and keep retracting it, which I refuse to do. I want my son to heal, not continually be injured.


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We took Paddy to the ER again last night at 2:00am. We got them to do another urinalysis which showed several indications that he has a UTI. This doctor was great and professional, gave us an rx for antibiotics and they gave him some Motrin which worked WAY better than the acetaminophen we were giving him. We went straight to the pharmacy and got the medicine, got home around 5am and everyone went to bed. Paddy is feeling much better today and isn't screaming when he pees. So my initial instincts were proven correct. I'm filing a complaint about that other doctor today. I also have him scheduled later this week to see a *foreskin friendly* urologist. The nurse I spoke with on the phone was horrified and agreed that Paddy should be seen to ensure there isn't more serious damage and make sure he heals properly.

I recieved a phone call today from the director of the emergency room where we first took Paddy. He left his HOME phone number and asked me to call him back, so I did. This doctor proceeds to tell me he spoke with the head of urology ( the same man, interestingly enough, Paddy is going to see tommorrow ) and upon further testing of the urine sample, while there was bacteria present it was not the kind consistent with a urinary tract infection, and that both urine samples tested negative for white blood cells, and that it was my son's FORESKIN that was infected, and that retraction was the ONLY way to examine the problem. I don't believe a word of it. I think this hospital is going into MAJOR cover-their-ass mode, a doctor giving me his home freakin phone number. Not sure what to think about any of it...


Well we saw the urologist today. This urologist was the son of the head of urology the director spoke with. HE has a different opinion than his father does about this situation. The bacteria found on the culture was PROTEUS and originating from his URINE. This could be an indication of a condition called reflux, where the urine flushes back into the kidneys during urination. Patrick will be travelling to Akron Children's Hospital next Wednesday to get an ultrasound and a test where they will catheterize him and fill his bladder with dye. It is the only way to test for reflux. If left untreated, Patrick could have serious damage to or even lose his kidneys. The urine test done today was negative, which is good, the antibiotics are doing their job. I know someone asked about kidney stones, and the doctor mentioned that as a possibility. There is genetic predisposition to urinary problems. DH had a kidney stone very young ( about 25 years old he said, which is young for that) and before I had kids I suffered from chronic UTI's and also had a cystoscopy performed when I was 4 years old. My ureters are narrower than they should be.
I am going to be contacting NOCIRC and also DOC. WE WILL NOT CIRCUMCISE OUR SON. PERIOD.


cravenab00's Avatar cravenab00 04:52 PM 08-19-2007
run, far and fast from that doctor, NEVER GO BACK. His advice is full of BS, absolutley dripping with BS.
Do your absolute best to find a doc who knows how to take care of a intact penis. What area are you in? Someone here may have a doc reccomendation for you. Or talk to your local LLL.
I am so so so so sorry this happened to you and your sweet boy.
You are right, do not retract his foreskin, it needs to heal. do lots of baths with water only, no soap. Also, let him be nakey as much as possible until it heals.
As far as the possible UTI is concerned, did you ever get the test results back? was it a UTI? or was the doctor to preoccupied with being a UA violation to tell you?
If it is not a UTI, it may just be the beginning of separation that is causing him discomfort.
Or, if he has been sick, and feverish, he may very well be dehydrated. And that can cause the urine to concentrate, and it can be uncomfortable and even burn when urinating.
Report the doctor. I dont know, how, but i am certain someone else will come along with those details.
to both you and your DS
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar MCatLvrMom2A&X 04:58 PM 08-19-2007
what pp said warm baths no soap. You can put a OTC cream on it as a preventative called bacatracin it is a antibacterial like neosporine but safer to use on the genitals, just put it on the penis all over no need to push around on his foreskin.

You can get the lawyer here Dave2GA to send a letter to the Dr. in the urgent care and his superiors. It isnt a letter stating you will sue but it will let the Dr. know that by doing what he did he opened hisself up for a law suit.

I hope your little guy is feeling better soon. It just breaks my heart that you and your son were hurt like this The ignorence of the medical profession on this issue astounds me :
paphia's Avatar paphia 05:06 PM 08-19-2007


You are still a good mommy - you were scared and worried about your son and that Dr. was a horrible bully. You've gotten some good advice. Take care of yourself and your son. You know you'll never let something like this happen again. Keep on that Dr./hospital.
mackysmama's Avatar mackysmama 05:15 PM 08-19-2007
My son, 5, accidently retracted himself in the bathtub. Before that, he didn't retract at all. We put some bacatracin on it and left it alone. It is back to normal now and he can't retract it.
Mama Poot's Avatar Mama Poot 05:17 PM 08-19-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by cravenab00 View Post
run, far and fast from that doctor, NEVER GO BACK. His advice is full of BS, absolutley dripping with BS.
Do your absolute best to find a doc who knows how to take care of a intact penis. What area are you in? Someone here may have a doc reccomendation for you. Or talk to your local LLL.
I am so so so so sorry this happened to you and your sweet boy.
You are right, do not retract his foreskin, it needs to heal. do lots of baths with water only, no soap. Also, let him be nakey as much as possible until it heals.
As far as the possible UTI is concerned, did you ever get the test results back? was it a UTI? or was the doctor to preoccupied with being a UA violation to tell you?
If it is not a UTI, it may just be the beginning of separation that is causing him discomfort.
Or, if he has been sick, and feverish, he may very well be dehydrated. And that can cause the urine to concentrate, and it can be uncomfortable and even burn when urinating.
Report the doctor. I dont know, how, but i am certain someone else will come along with those details.
to both you and your DS
The test came back negative according to the horrible doctor, but I'm not sure I believe him because less than five minutes before he told me it was negative I spoke with a nurse asking when the results would be in, and she said "not long" but explained the process it had to go through. I find it hard to believe the results came in in that short amount of time. And his urine didn't smell right. It wasn't cloudy, though.
After further reading I think his foreskin might have gotten caught or turned
"inside out" somehow ( he likes to play with it- go figure he's a boy ) and he has quite a bit of "extra" skin at the end like DH, and yeah it was hurting him, but I think this could have been resolved MUCH differently.
jessjgh1's Avatar jessjgh1 06:27 PM 08-19-2007
If it was stuck... my impression is that retraction is the exact opposite of what needs to be done... the skin needs to be pulled (with some kind of lubricant) forward... NOT backwards.

I'm so sorry moma... what a pita doctor.

Jessica
+stella+'s Avatar +stella+ 10:00 PM 08-19-2007
If you gave a urine sample they do two things with it to detect and diagnose a UTI. First they will do a urine analysis on it with a dip stick that checks for ph, sugar, ketones, presence of white blood cells, presence of free hemoglobin and red blood cells.

Usually, if the white blood cell part of that test comes back positive that can be indicitive of a UTI, but it is not at all and no where near definitive.

The second part is to take the urine sample, dilute it with a little stick thing and culture it on a petri dish which then takes at least 48 hours to grow. The number of colonies and colony type of bacteria that grows is the definitive test for UTI.

The point of my blathering is, when you go into the ER with possibility of UTI, they wont be able to tell you "the answer" for at least 48 hours. Usually if the white blood cell part of the stick is positive they will preemptively treat you with common UTI antibiotics.

The doc, saying he had no UTI and that was the way to fix the problem, was completely full of crap.

Im sorry, call the ER back in a day and ask them if they cultured your sons specimen and what the results were, take that info to his ped for further treatment if the UTI doenst seem to get better.

again, Im so sorry, I would be so upset as well.
+stella+'s Avatar +stella+ 04:30 PM 08-20-2007
thank you for the update, your instinct was right on! which is doubly good because now you really do have a good case for the first doc being wholly useless, unprofessional, wrong and harmful.

I hope your little guy continues to mend and feel better.
gridley13's Avatar gridley13 05:40 PM 08-20-2007
Big hugs to you and your DS.

Let us know what happens with the complaint which that doctor 100% deserves.
smeep's Avatar smeep 06:01 PM 08-20-2007
Good luck with your complaint! I hope they do something about it. I would recommend you letting them know (them being whoever you file the complaint with) the reasons WHY the foreskin should not be retracted, with some references, so that way they can't just ignore it and think you're crazy or dumb or something.

What an uneducated jerk. Who's willing to bet that he's circ'd, his children are and that he never learned a correct thing in his life about being intact? I bet he supports the "circumcision protects against AIDS" crap too.
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar MCatLvrMom2A&X 06:18 PM 08-20-2007
Keep us updated on your ds and also what happens with the first Dr. you saw.
Mama Poot's Avatar Mama Poot 06:52 PM 08-20-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by smeep View Post
Good luck with your complaint! I hope they do something about it. I would recommend you letting them know (them being whoever you file the complaint with) the reasons WHY the foreskin should not be retracted, with some references, so that way they can't just ignore it and think you're crazy or dumb or something.

What an uneducated jerk. Who's willing to bet that he's circ'd, his children are and that he never learned a correct thing in his life about being intact? I bet he supports the "circumcision protects against AIDS" crap too.
I also went to the hospital today to get Paddy's records from the first test and there was only one thing that was abnormal, and that was the presence of leukocytes ( whatever that is ) in the urine. The PH was also on the high side but not high enough for the hospital to think anything of it. Oh well, at least the other doctor knew what the hell was going on.


He openly admitted that he is circ'd, and so are all THREE OF HIS SONS. He knows NOTHING about the intact penis. NOTHING. Except whatever garbage he read in outdated books in med school. He also admitted being "old school" and "that's just how it's always been done". He also claimed to be neither for nor against circumcision and had no religious or moral issues with it. *coughcoughwhatabunchofcrap*
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar MCatLvrMom2A&X 07:01 PM 08-20-2007
Have you contacted Dave2GA yet to get a letter sent to that Dr. and to the staff of the hospital as well? If this dr did this to your son then he will do it to others unless he learns that he is open for a lawsuit.
Benji'sMom's Avatar Benji'sMom 07:10 PM 08-20-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Poot View Post
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We took Paddy to the ER again last night at 2:00am. We got them to do another urinalysis which showed several indications that he has a UTI. This doctor was great and professional, gave us an rx for antibiotics and they gave him some Motrin which worked WAY better than the acetaminophen we were giving him. We went straight to the pharmacy and got the medicine, got home around 5am and everyone went to bed. Paddy is feeling much better today and isn't screaming when he pees. So my initial instincts were proven correct. I'm filing a complaint about that other doctor today. I also have him scheduled later this week to see a *foreskin friendly* urologist. The nurse I spoke with on the phone was horrified and agreed that Paddy should be seen to ensure there isn't more serious damage and make sure he heals properly.
Glad everything is getting better and that you found some better doctors. I can't believe that first doctor couldn't even diagnose a UTI!!!
+stella+'s Avatar +stella+ 08:55 PM 08-20-2007
"there was only one thing that was abnormal, and that was the presence of leukocytes"

those are the white blood cells i mentioned in my first post, same thing, different name. that makes me so mad the doc told you he didnt have a UTI when everywhere else in the world if you have symptoms of UTI (fever, pain, etc) and your urine analysis is positive for leukocytes (white blood cells) you get antibiotics to begin to treat the UTI just like you did at the second place.

the first doc totally let you down, he should have KNOWN by the symptoms and that one test result that your son had a UTI but in seeing that he was intact he completely ignored the truth and went on a misguided rampage.

what a total UAV!!! ugh that makes me so mad for you
Mama Poot's Avatar Mama Poot 10:04 PM 08-20-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X View Post
Have you contacted Dave2GA yet to get a letter sent to that Dr. and to the staff of the hospital as well? If this dr did this to your son then he will do it to others unless he learns that he is open for a lawsuit.
No but I would like to. Anyone have his email address?
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar MCatLvrMom2A&X 10:27 PM 08-20-2007
If you look his name up here in search Dave2GA you can send him either a email or pm.
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar MCatLvrMom2A&X 10:29 PM 08-20-2007
Here is his personal page http://www.mothering.com/discussions/member.php?u=37343 you can get the info you need there.
Mama Poot's Avatar Mama Poot 05:31 PM 08-21-2007
I got the results of the second urinalysis today.

The first test was done around 11:00am, 8-19-07. A trace of white blood cells showed up on this test, along with an elevated urine pH of 8.0. Not out of normal range, but higher than usual. In my opinion, those two things should have been enough reason for the doctor to prescribe antibiotics. But he did not and INSISTED my son did not have a urinary tract infection.

The results of the second test, performed at 3:00am 8-20-07 are as follows:

Urine color-yellow
Urine clarity-cloudy
urine bilirubin-negative
urine blood-negative
urine glucose-negative
urine ketones-negative
Urine leukocyte ester (white blood cells)- small-AB(abnormal)

Urine nitrite-negative
Urine pH-8.5 (normal range is 5.0-8.5)
Urine protein-trace, marked abnormal

The microscopic analysis showed a presence of MANY bacteria, it also says there were calcium phosphate crystals present ( although I don't know what that means, but that's what the paper says ).

But yet my son didn't have a UTI....I called the patient representative again and left her a message telling her about the second test results and demanded that they be given to this "all knowing" idiot.
Mama Poot's Avatar Mama Poot 08:50 PM 08-22-2007
bump
fruitful womb's Avatar fruitful womb 09:00 PM 08-22-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Poot View Post
this hospital is going into MAJOR cover-their-ass mode,
I think so too! Especially since he called the urologist your about to see!:
Mama Poot's Avatar Mama Poot 10:41 PM 08-22-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruitful womb View Post
I think so too! Especially since he called the urologist your about to see!:
That is an honest coincidence. I did not tell them who I was going to follow up with. This urologist was recommended by my mother who is an RN. There is no way they could have known. Either way, I think the home phone number thing was over the top.

I was researching my son's possible problem which is referred to as balinitis and is a common thing among uncircumcised males, but not a major problem, and they only needed to do a swab at the tip of the penis to test for the infection. Once again, retraction was NOT necessary.
Rylins mama's Avatar Rylins mama 10:58 PM 08-22-2007
Wow I dont even know what to say about that. I hope your little guy feels better... Oh and that dr. is an idiot!
CrunchyMom05's Avatar CrunchyMom05 12:12 AM 08-23-2007

Quirky's Avatar Quirky 03:23 AM 08-23-2007
If it's balanitis, that's an inflammation (not necessarily infection) of the glans of the penis, and circed males get it too:

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/balanitis/

Posthitis is an inflammation of the foreskin. If they occur together it's called balanoposthitis.

Tell them they're full of crap, premature forcible retraction can actually cause balanitis:

Quote:
A physical insult may cause balanitis. Inflammation may be caused by premature forcible retraction of the foreskin which may tear the synechial membranes that retain the non-separated foreskin in the young boy.14 The tearing of the synechia creates raw surfaces which may become infected.14
Def. spend some time on this website so you can go in educated with guns blazing. Freakin' morons.
prairiemommy's Avatar prairiemommy 03:33 AM 08-23-2007
to you mama! What an awful experience! We all make the best decisions we can at the time - no flames to you.

I haven't read all the responses (my eyes are very droopy - need to sleep) but I want to say that my DS1 had a foreskin infection when he was 2 or 3 and the dr never once "had to retract it to examin it" - it was swollen, it hurt and DS1 was upset. Enough said. He prescribed antibiotics and we were on our way.

Lots of hugs and calm vibes to you. It's not easy dealing with doctors who think they know it all and who are trying to dodge the legal bullet. I hope this is over for you soon and that your little guy feels better soon!
BamaDude's Avatar BamaDude 03:55 AM 08-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Poot View Post
Urine leukocyte ester (white blood cells)- small-AB(abnormal)

Urine pH-8.5 (normal range is 5.0-8.5)
Urine protein-trace, marked abnormal

The microscopic analysis showed a presence of MANY bacteria, it also says there were calcium phosphate crystals present ( although I don't know what that means, but that's what the paper says ).

But yet my son didn't have a UTI....I called the patient representative again and left her a message telling her about the second test results and demanded that they be given to this "all knowing" idiot.
I think what are commonly called "kidney stones" are calcium oxylate, not calcium phosphate, but it's been a really long time since I was pre-med and I can't remember every little detail about their chemical composition.
I do, however, remember that under a microscope kidney stones look like sand spurs, with lots of little spikes jutting out in all directions. This is why they are so painful to pass, and doing so can produce symptoms similar to those your son was displaying. I also remember that a propensity to produce kidney stones is an inherited trait.
You might ask your urologist if the calcium phosphate crystals in your son's urine are an early indicator that he has a natural tendency to produce kidney stones, and if you should modify his diet to help prevent them.
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar MCatLvrMom2A&X 09:22 AM 08-23-2007
They are trying to cover their butts. You have to really get Dave2GA to send them a letter. If you are taking your son to the urologist then make 100% sure to tell him that he is not to retract your son in any way shape or form and let him know that you are being forced to take action because of their refusal to get up to date on proper intact penis care.

I would print out stuff to take with me especially the one from the AAP about forced retraction. I am sorry you are getting the run around on this but it really dosnt surprise me. Dr's protect their own.
Benji'sMom's Avatar Benji'sMom 03:05 PM 08-23-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Poot View Post
I recieved a phone call today from the director of the emergency room where we first took Paddy. He left his HOME phone number and asked me to call him back, so I did. This doctor proceeds to tell me he spoke with the head of urology ( the same man, interestingly enough, Paddy is going to see tommorrow ) and upon further testing of the urine sample, while there was bacteria present it was not the kind consistent with a urinary tract infection, and that both urine samples tested negative for white blood cells, and that it was my son's FORESKIN that was infected, and that retraction was the ONLY way to examine the problem. I don't believe a word of it. I think this hospital is going into MAJOR cover-their-ass mode, a doctor giving me his home freakin phone number. Not sure what to think about any of it...
Well when he retracted him to examine the problem, did he find a raging foreskin infection? I think not. In fact the doctor who retract said it WASN'T an infection at all. Yet they're still saying it was an infected foreskin... that's CYA. Can't wait to hear what the urologist has to say today!
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