Does Your Circumcised Husband feel that RIC was a valid 'parental choice'? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I know that in the US in general, and even among some parents who chose to leave their sons intact, RIC is seen as a valid 'parental choice', and it is sometimes said that we should 'respect and support' the parenting choices of others, even if we don't agree with them.

I thought it would be interesting to hear from men who were circumcised as infants - how do they feel about RIC as a 'parental choice'? Was it a choice your parents had a right to make for you? Is your body yours, or does it belong to your parents? Was it any different when you were a baby?

As a women, I am fortunate and my body is protected. It is illegal for anyone to alter my genitals without my consent. The same is not true for men.

I would be very interested in hearing the thoughts of men on this forum (ladies - if your dhs/partners don't post here, could you ask them for us and come back with their responses?).

I would ask that replies just be from men - either circumcised men (and how they feel about the fact that their parents altered their bodies) or intact men (do they feel that their parents should have had the right to alter their bodies when they were children)? Since this directly affects men - especially the argument that circumcision is a 'parental choice' - I'd really like to hear from men what they think about this in relationship to themselves.

Thanks!
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#2 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 05:26 AM
 
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I will ask. I bet it will be like pulling teeth for him to answer seriously but Ill do my best. That said, he didnt put up any fight to keeping our son intact, but I dont think hes upset about his own circ. Ill get back to you.
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#3 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 05:33 AM
 
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My dh doesn't post here but I can very confidently share his opinion. He is circ'ed. We have 2 boys, and they are intact.

Dh, at age 36, has always harbored angry feelings towards his parents for having it done to him. He has gone so far as to research foreskin restoration and would like to attempt it.

He believes it is not a parent's choice. He is the one who came to me before I had even thought about it when we were pg with ds1. He made it very clear that we would not be circing our boys. (which wasn't up for debate, anyway, since I agreed!)
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#4 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 05:35 AM
 
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I will try to get dh to answer but he is so sick of hearing me on my : about circ

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

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#5 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 05:36 AM
 
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My dh says he refuses to answer that question at 4 oclock in the morning. Doesn't mean he won't answer. Let you know when he does.
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#6 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 05:41 AM
 
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I asked my intact dh the question and he answered, simply, "no, only if truly medically necessary" (and he agrees that the only reasons are frostbite, gangrene, and cancer).

He's happy that his parents didn't make that personal choice for him, and so am I

love and peace.

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: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#7 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 06:18 AM
 
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My DH does not think his parents had the right to make this "parental choice". He was angry about it for a while after we saw a circ video (he had no idea just how horrible it is), but I think now he's accepted that his parents didn't know better and did what they thought was best at the time (it was the 60's, and his parents are a Dr and nurse).

However, he is angry that they encouraged circ for their grandsons (only got one of three though). No excuses anymore!
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#8 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 07:29 AM
 
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No, he does not think it was a parental choice. That is why our boys are intact.

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#9 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 08:10 AM
 
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I just asked DH if he thought it was a 'valid parental choice' and he said 'Good grief no! Not unless cutting off the tips of your child's fingers is a 'valid parental choice'.'. When I asked if it made him angry that his parents did it to him, he said 'Well, it didn't make me angry until I realised the ramifications... even now it doesn't make me angry, because I'm sure they did it out of ignorance. But yeah, it makes me kind of peeved'.

Hope that helps! FWIW, he'd never really known about the circumcision 'issue' until I found it on MDC and linked him to a few articles. He certainly won't vax our sons, should we have any; and he's vaguely interested in restoration, but probably not enough to actually bother doing it. If he hadn't read the articles he'd probably be quite content with the status quo.

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#10 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 08:27 AM
 
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I know my dh would never post here in a million years but I know what he thinks.

Sadly, despite all my educating, dh still thinks that circ is a valid parental choice (with anesthesia though). I think in his case he falls into the "parents do a hell of a lot worse things to their kids than circ and my circ is just fine thanks" category. I think there's a ton of denial, plus hurt that he thinks that I think that his penis is not all it could be (it's come up in counseling). He's just not interested in restoration and I can't push it, which I respect although I'm sad about it.

He's totally on-board with leaving our kids intact, and in fact tried his very best to get his brother not to circ their son (but failed). I think if you asked him as a stranger at this point, he'd tell you it's totally unnecessary and extremely painful. But he just can't seem to take that last step towards admitting that circumcision is wrong. I wish he would, as it's uncomfortable to me to have such an important topic that we don't fully see eye to eye on, as we agree on most other important topics, but I've had to let it go for the sake of our marriage.

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#11 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 08:47 AM
 
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My parents did not know that they had a choice. I was circumcised as a matter of routine by the doctor without asking my parents. Given the choice, I believe that they would have requested that I be circumcised. It was the thing to do in the 50's. Everyone was doing it. You did not question the doctor.

I would NEVER circumcise a son. A boy or man should decide this for himself. I have taught my daughters to be pro-intact, should they ever have sons. Unfortunately, I never had a son, but I have successfully encouraged a number of friends to leave their sons intact. Even one who was going to circumcise his 6 year old -- just in case.
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#12 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 09:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X View Post
I will try to get dh to answer but he is so sick of hearing me on my : about circ
Oh boy, do I feel your pain. Scootch on over, because I'm in the same boat! :

I'll try to ask DH again this evening, but I doubt that I'll get any other answer besides, "uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh, not again", which will be followed by an eye roll, then his head into his hands, and lastly, "seriously, WHY do you care so much?!?!". Yep, mark my words

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#13 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 10:19 AM
 
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My husband absoultely feels it is a violation of bodily integrity and NOT a parent's right to circumcise a child.

When we were dating and I was beginning to get the impression that he could be a serious partner, I asked his opinion on issues important to me such as birthing location, co sleeping, breastfeeding and circumcision. On the subject of circ, he said "NO WAY, and frankly, I'd like mine back!" That was the moment that I seriously knew he was marriage material.

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#14 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 10:28 AM
 
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I'll try to ask DH again this evening, but I doubt that I'll get any other answer besides, "uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh, not again", which will be followed by an eye roll, then his head into his hands, and lastly, "seriously, WHY do you care so much?!?!". Yep, mark my words
Sounds about like me and my DH! Whenever I try to bring up my thoughts on circumcision or tell him about something I read about it, he just sort of rolls his eyes at me and says something along the lines of, "OMG Christina, do you have to talk about this again? Give it a rest! You got what you wanted - our son isn't circumcised. We agreed on it and I'm fine with it, but it's not a huge deal or anything, so let it go already! Why do you care what other parents do?" So, I guess that about sums it up for him - he does see it as a parental choice and thinks that parents should be able to circ their sons if they think it's "healthier" or "cleaner." He does advocate for proper pain relief and informed consent, which is something, but has no problem with the actual procedure itself. *Sigh* I'm glad he is 100% on board with leaving our son intact (and any future ones) but sometimes I feel slightly frustrated that he doesn't really fully get it.

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#15 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 10:42 AM
 
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My parents did not know that they had a choice. I was circumcised as a matter of routine by the doctor without asking my parents. Given the choice, I believe that they would have requested that I be circumcised. It was the thing to do in the 50's. Everyone was doing it. You did not question the doctor.
Pretty much the same here, except I was born in the mid 60's. I don't think until there was a court case in the early 70's that they even bothered getting signed consent from the parents at a lot of hospitals...they just went ahead and did it. When I finally confronted my mother about it six years ago, she pretty much said the same thing; she didn't think you HAD a choice. However, my father was european-born, intact and, unfortunately, very anti-semitic. I'm not proud of the latter part but part of me always wonders if it HAD been presented as a choice to my parents if I might have had a chance. But given the context it happened in I have very mixed feelings toward them because I don't really think they made a conscious "choice" to have my penis mutilated. I would definitely feel much more upset with them if they had.

And mutilated it was. They got talked into re-circ'ing me when I was in the first grade. After that, and I now know because of that circ, they did a "procedure" to fix the meatal stenosis I developed. I had to go to a urologist this year for kidney stones. Part of that treatment invloved inserting "probes" and a stent. The dr. termed me to STILL have a case of meatal stenosis. He even admitted it wasn't uncommon for it to tighten up AGAIN, even after supposedly being "fixed." I suppose it wasn't the end of the world since, as the dr. said, "At least it looks like you can pee ok." But evidently it wasn't quite enough to insert a standard probe....and having that part of your anatomy "dilated".... VERY painful. :

I've never gotten much pleasure out of my wreck of a penis. It's become even worse in the last few years, and I'm still relatively young. I'm positive it's why I've never really pursued relationships seriously and it's doubtful I'll ever have children.

Do I think parents have the "right" to assume these kind of risks to their child's genitals? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Until the individual who OWNS the penis can give informed consent and is willing to assume the risks themselves it ought to be illegal.
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#16 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 10:47 AM
 
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He does NOT think it's a valid choice. However he doesn't blame his parents because they were not GIVEN a choice- it was just done.

-Angela
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#17 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 10:48 AM
 
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Sounds about like me and my DH! Whenever I try to bring up my thoughts on circumcision or tell him about something I read about it, he just sort of rolls his eyes at me and says something along the lines of, "OMG Christina, do you have to talk about this again? Give it a rest! You got what you wanted - our son isn't circumcised. We agreed on it and I'm fine with it, but it's not a huge deal or anything, so let it go already! Why do you care what other parents do?" So, I guess that about sums it up for him - he does see it as a parental choice and thinks that parents should be able to circ their sons if they think it's "healthier" or "cleaner." He does advocate for proper pain relief and informed consent, which is something, but has no problem with the actual procedure itself. *Sigh* I'm glad he is 100% on board with leaving our son intact (and any future ones) but sometimes I feel slightly frustrated that he doesn't really fully get it.

Yep, he sounds very much like my hubby!!!

One of the main issues standing in my way of getting into it really deep with DH is the fact that we will have no children together. I had already had two children before we married and he has never had any of his own. My babymaking material is broken, therefore in his eyes, unless something happens to me, he and I will never truly need to settle this as we will have no more children. He feels no need to even discuss it. His penis is "just fine as it is". End of story.

Now, in my eyes, whether we could have more children or not, I still want him on our side.. I want him to understand where we're coming from. God forbid, if anything does happen to me or we ever split up, I want to make sure that he doesn't let this happen to any of his possible future sons. He's just so darn bullheaded..

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#18 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 11:16 AM
 
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Is a RIC a valid parental choice?

Legally? Yes, unfortunately.

Ethically, morally, and compassionate? No way. Its not right to cut healthy tissue of off a minor for any reason.

What my parents had done to me was wrong and my wife and I are paying the price. I suppose I would be less angry if they would admit they made a mistake and that the doctor lied to them. They're the type that like to have their parenting choices validated. I'll bet it just burns them up that none of their grandchildren will be cut.
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#19 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 12:32 PM
 
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I do not think it should be a parental choice.
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#20 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 12:37 PM
 
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My dh was born in TX in 1963 we both strongly doubt his parents were even asked about his circ, it was just done as a matter of course. As both dh's parents had passed before we had ds and he saw what an issue this can be it's not something he could even talk with them about.

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#21 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 12:42 PM
 
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I was talking to my hubby about this the other day. I asked him if we ever had a son, would he want to circumcise him. He said ¨Well yeah I guess.¨ I prodded him more and honestly he didn´t even seem to know why. He said when his first son was born (first marriage, hubby was only 18, for the most part he was/is a very involved daddy but worked alot) he was never even asked, never saw it, never really thought about it.

He agreed that most of the common reasons: needs to look like daddy, everyone is circumcised...he will look weird if heś not, itś cleaner...weŕe very weak and not really a good reason to do a totally unnecessary procedure. So if I choose our hypothetical son will not be circ´d. But he wouldn´t care if I wanted to either. So while I´ve convinced him it is unnecessary...he still believes it is up to the parent. I guess I´m making a little, teeny bit of progress.
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#22 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 12:47 PM
 
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dh is of the opnion that his mom didn't know she had a choice ... and i am willing to agree. it WAS 1966, but it was also rural KS and his mom is very uneducated -- i think she graduated hs.

Also MIL CLAIMES her husband was very controling and "ruled the family" don't know -- he left when DH was a baby and died a long time ago -- however knowing MIL I don't believe all of anything she says.

So DH pretty well accepts that it was not a parental choice, as much as an SOP that his mom (and dad for that matter) may not even over though about, or known about.

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My dh was born in TX in 1963 we both strongly doubt his parents were even asked about his circ, it was just done as a matter of course.
I agrfee I dobut MIL or anyone even had to sign a consent form knew it was hapneing, surely weas done in the nusery as a routine thing.

that being said MIL asked DH before we had Theo, before we knew he was a HE "well i hope you are going to circ him" (DH almost ran off the road) she was compaining about a lot of our choices in that conservation. she has never changed a dipaer, and i do not know really if she knows Theo is intact thought we have never made any effort to hide it.

I know DH and his oldest bro -- by 10 year -- got into it over it and DH tried to explain it is no medically necessary and is a body modification that we do not believe in.

I do think DH sees it as more of a parental choice than i do -- again not one he would make -- but one none-the-less.

Aimee

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#23 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 12:56 PM
 
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I'm not going to ask him. He gets incredibily defensive and angry. The last time we talked about him being circ'd he mentioned (more like yelled) that his parents F'd up and there was nothing he could no about it now. I don't think he's mad at them. He says they are just doing what they were told was best.
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#24 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 01:07 PM
 
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My dh called his parents, asked why they did it, and said that they had no right. his dad sent him an article about how great it is to be circed :

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#25 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 01:07 PM
 
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My hubby's cut. He's not, as far as I can tell, angry about it and definitely hasn't considered restoration. He thinks circ is totally unnecessary though, researched it when we were expecting boy #1 and came back with a "No WAY will that be done to my son!" Our boys are both intact, and he tried getting his siblings to leave their children intact, but didn't push the issue. The only bit of anger I've seen from him is when his mom tried to convince us to cut #1. "He'll get infections." "You mean like I have anyway even with a circ?" "Well, he'll never get good head." (WTF? I've got my week-old infant in my arms and she's talking about him having sexual relations?!) He was like "If a girl's gonna leave him over a little extra bit of penis, I'm pretty sure it's not a girl I'd want him with anyway. Now we're through talking about my newborn and sex." *hehe*
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#26 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 01:55 PM
 
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My in-laws fell prey to the propaganda FIL heard in the Navy during WWII. DH and I didn't learn until 8 years after FIL had died that he had been intact! It makes us both sad to think that his parents were more influenced by the horror stories they heard than by the evidence in their own home - as far as I know, FIL never had a problem with his foreskin. DH was born in 1961; his brother (also circumcised) is 7 years older.

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#27 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 02:02 PM
 
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no. he was horrified.

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#28 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 02:20 PM
 
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My hubby's cut. He's not, as far as I can tell, angry about it and definitely hasn't considered restoration. He thinks circ is totally unnecessary though, researched it when we were expecting boy #1 and came back with a "No WAY will that be done to my son!"
:

That's my DH too. He just doesn't see a valid reason to do it to our kids. He's not an extroverted inactivist though. He just sees it as pointless.

Oh, and I found out recently my dad hates circumcision (he's intact). We were talking about tonsilectomies and he spoke angrily about unnecessary routine surgeries, "like circumcision." I get the feeling if someone brought it up in his presence he'd just tell them they were stupid for wanting to have it done.
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#29 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks everyone, for your replies (both for yourselves and on behalf of partners).

I asked my dh if he thought RIC is a valid parental choice, and whether someone else had the right to make that decision for him (he's British and intact).

After the usual eye-rolling about me going on about RIC (sounds like a lot of our husbands should get together - they could talk about that!), he said, 'I wouldn't want someone making that kind of decision for me - I wouldn't want to be circumcised'.

Mysticmomma - does your post mean that yes, your DH/partner thinks that RIC is a choice that should be made by the parents? The 'yes' just didn't seem to go with the 'He was horrified', so I wasn't sure...
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#30 of 80 Old 09-25-2007, 02:24 PM
 
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I was circ'd at birth and I definitely do not think it was/is a parental choice. I habour resentment toward my parents because of it, that they would subject me to such a brutal operation for no reason whatsoever. Its as much of a parental choice as is lobbing off an ear because it makes the baby's head look funny. Its not the type of surgery that can be undergone without proper consent and understanding by the patient, and thats simply not possible with an infant or child.
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