So when do you think it will end? - Mothering Forums

 
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#1 of 23 Old 09-26-2007, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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When do you think RIC will be a thing of the past? And what do you think will end it?
The government by protecting the rights of ALL people?
The parents?
The insurance carriers?
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#2 of 23 Old 09-26-2007, 08:53 PM
 
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I think people will end it. We are all becoming more conscious human beings. If the US adopts a socialized medical program, that may end it sooner than later (if other countries are any indication). It may take awhile - it took 40 or so years for the US to go from a smoking culture to a non-smoking culture.
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#3 of 23 Old 09-26-2007, 09:44 PM
 
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Soon I hope, very soon.

Circumcision will end...

1. When the word reach the young.
2. When the medical curriculum is corrected regarding the functions of the foreskin.
3. When Doctors quit asking parents if they want their ds's circumcised, instead inform the parents the care of the intact penis.
4. When Hospitals ban the practice.
5. When Insurance Companies stop covering the operation for non-medical reasons.
6. When the MGM Bill is enacted, making it LAW to protect minors from circumcision.
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#4 of 23 Old 09-26-2007, 09:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fruitful womb View Post
Circumcision will end...

1. When the word reach the young.
2. When the medical curriculum is corrected regarding the functions of the foreskin.
3. When Doctors quit asking parents if they want their ds's circumcised, instead inform the parents the care of the intact penis.
4. When Hospitals ban the practice.
5. When Insurance Companies stop covering the operation for non-medical reasons.
6. When the MGM Bill is enacted, making it LAW to protect minors from circumcision.
:

I hate to be a pessimist but sometimes I feel like it is a long uphill battle. Even though the circ rate is estimated at 60% (so not a vast majority) I still feel like there are SO many people in all positions - healthcare personnel, government, insurance providers, parents, etc. - who have to be convinced that the myths about circumcision just aren't true. I feel like a lot of very strong feelings, e.g. circ'ed men's angry/defensive feelings, some women's aversion to intact men, have to be overcome in general for the inactivist movement to really progress.

That said, I feel encouraged because I know that every person who is "converted" is one person closer to ending this practice. I was once on the fence about circumcision and might have had it done just to fit cultural norms, but the inactivists on here and another parenting board changed my mind.
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#5 of 23 Old 09-26-2007, 10:51 PM
 
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Quote:
OP: When do you think RIC will be a thing of the past? And what do you think will end it? The government by protecting the rights of ALL people?
The parents? The insurance carriers?
It will end, IMHO, with a lawsuit that both challenges the FGM law and sues the hell out of the ACOG.

I spoke with someone at ARC (www.arclaw.com) who informed me about something called "standing". It is a leagal term that is used to describe who has the "right" to file a lawsuit.

*standing*
n. the right to file a lawsuit or file a petition
under the circumstances.


He informed me that the *most successful* way to win a
(RIC) circumcision case would be for the victim to
file....

"OK. The victim is a baby. Babies can't file lawsuits"
(how convieient!) .

He basically said that the victim CAN file at the time he 18. He
has exactly 1 year to file before the "statute of
limitations" expires. (not much time hun? Grrrr!)

*statute of limitations*
n. a law which sets the maximum period which one can
wait before filing a lawsuit, depending on the type of
case or claim. The periods vary by state
.

So the long and short of it is this: It will take 1 or
several (class-action lawsuit) 18 year old men who are
savy enough to know that they were victims of
circumcision to challenge the Big Medical Trade
Association and jointly challenge the
constitutionality of the FGM law, (which only
represents one sex not the other).

As far as money goes, I believe most attorneys collect
on a case only IF they win it. So I don't see funds as
being a problem for this 18 yr. old (they are usually
broke).

Someone needs to get behind their 18 yr. old
son one day and encourage him to file a lawsuit
against the doctor/hospital and trade Association
(likely ACOG) and sue for lack of personal consent.


The suit will be made stronger with the fact that it
is unconstitional to outlaw FGM (1996) and not MGM.


In order for the 18 year old to challenge the
constitutionality of the FGM law (this is critical
that it be challenged) he has to be 18 years old AFTER
the law came into existence. 1996.

http://www.mgmbill.org/usfgmlaw.htm

The suitable male canidates for this lawsuit are only
birth-11 years old right now.

When they reach 18, they will have a 1 year window of
opportunity to challenge the FGM law and sue the big
medical trade association. The OB's are the ones to
target as they perform most all circs. But if a Pedi did the circ, then the target would have to be the AAP.

If a lawsuit like the one described above is filed & won, circ
will likely end in the US
. The earliest time a suit
with standing can be brought is in 2014.

We have to wait until then I'm afraid, to find our man or men.
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#6 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 12:08 AM
 
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Government and insurance companies are run by people to serve people, so it will always come down to the people. I expect it to gradually dwindle till fewer and fewer choose to do it. As people sue Drs or simple get annoyed when asked the Drs will stop offering it unsolicited. It's only taken a couple of decades to drop to just about 55%.

Remeber whipping children with an implament (belt, paddle, ruler, switch, etc) used to be the norm. These days most people consider it horrifying. People minds shift gradually.

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#7 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 12:51 AM
 
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I don't know when it will end - hopefully within our lifetimes. I do think the more vocal people like us become, the more it will give people pause and think about what they are doing. I for one have spoken out against it using no uncertain terms, on another board, and when the topic came up again, no supporters of RIC spoke up that had in the previous debate.

I think when more people come to realize it is not a defensible practice, less people will do it and once public opinion has shifted *enough*, the lawyers will move in with those young men kldliam mentioned and there will be a stop to it. Not am immediate solution, but something to look forward to!

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#8 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 01:00 AM
 
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Right now I fear it will never truly end (long sad discussion in chat) It is so sad that people just cant see it for what it is

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#9 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 01:58 AM
 
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Are you talking just about cultural circumcision in USA?

That end when there is a real law suit. And when someone gives some money to obviously very poor medical schools so future doctors&nurses would get at least little bit education about intact penis.

As globally - never. It will just increase.
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#10 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 10:32 AM
 
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In my family it ended with my husband. My sons, at age 13, are very opposed to infant circumcision, and very attached to their foreskins (pun intended).

Right now there is a downward trend in infant circumcision. As these babies grow up, they (and their sisters) are more likely to convince their own spouses, friends, in-laws, and neighbors that circumcision is unnecessary. Meanwhile, I don't see doctors pushing infant circumcision, though the AAP might not ever be more forceful than it is now. So the pendulum is going to swing toward keeping boys intact, without a lot to hold it back.

This effect is going to snowball. My sons won't let any of their grandchildren be circumcised (if they can help it). The more people see and hear from intact males (and their parents, sisters, and lovers), the more people will question infant circumcision - and questioning it is the key to stopping it.

I say three generations at the most - I expect that my grandchildren will not be asked about it in the hospital.

If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

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#11 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phdmama06 View Post
:

I hate to be a pessimist but sometimes I feel like it is a long uphill battle.
That's how I feel. If people don't see nothing wrong with it, how is it ever going to change? I feel so discouraged.

Even API - an organization that should have the best interest of children in mind doesn't care about the horror of circumcision. Saying 'good job' to your child will scar him for life but ripping off part of his genitals to fit your expectation of what he should look like apparently is perfectly compatible with respectful and emotionally responsive parenting...
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#12 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by KBinSATX View Post
When do you think RIC will be a thing of the past? And what do you think will end it?
The government by protecting the rights of ALL people?
The parents?
The insurance carriers?
I think that rates will be below 10% in 20 years in the west, Florida, and Texas, 30 years for the rest of the country.

This kind of change comes slowly, then quickly. More people will know more people who are intact and with intact children. People will start to accept intactness as normal. Its a snowballing effect. The west has a headstart on the rest of the country.

People growing up today will have had Internet access their entire lives. Even now, independent medical research is commonplace among younger people. They will have more exposure to intactivism and have a more global worldview.

Just as importantly, there will be many more intact doctors and doctors with intact partners in the next 10-30 years. Doctors who know the value of the foreskin firsthand will be a lot less likely to recommend cutting it off.

Many insurances don't cover it already and I doubt any will in the next 10-20 years. The Medicaid project is having good luck getting it out of Medicaid coverage. If we were to join the civilized world and implement a single payer plan, I doubt circumcision would be covered at all.

I don't think circumcision will completely end until it is made illegal. IMHO, the only thing that will keep it legal is the fact that it is an important ritual of the Jewish faith. There is a slow movement to abandon the Bris Milah, even in Israel, and from what I know, most European Jews don't circ. If Bris Milah becomes uncommon and unimportant, then I think circumcision will quickly become illegal.
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#13 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 12:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nd_deadhead View Post
In my family it ended with my husband. My sons, at age 13, are very opposed to infant circumcision, and very attached to their foreskins (pun intended).

Right now there is a downward trend in infant circumcision. As these babies grow up, they (and their sisters) are more likely to convince their own spouses, friends, in-laws, and neighbors that circumcision is unnecessary. Meanwhile, I don't see doctors pushing infant circumcision, though the AAP might not ever be more forceful than it is now. So the pendulum is going to swing toward keeping boys intact, without a lot to hold it back.

This effect is going to snowball. My sons won't let any of their grandchildren be circumcised (if they can help it). The more people see and hear from intact males (and their parents, sisters, and lovers), the more people will question infant circumcision - and questioning it is the key to stopping it.

I say three generations at the most - I expect that my grandchildren will not be asked about it in the hospital.
I agree, I think our stance on this and our sons will be the ones who start to put an end to this. Already it is beggining. Now 40 something percent of boys are not circed, that from 90% being circed in the 70's. We are making ground. Too slowly yes, but its something! I ended this tradition in my family, my brother was circed, but now I have 3 sons who are not, who will be 3 men, God willing with sons of their own who will not. My brother is anti circ after my talks with him which will spare his children. My sister is circing her son, sadly, but out of my parents 3 children 2 of us have said no way....we are making ground.

Its only a matter of time, with circ and with vaccines, before the general public starts to see the reality of it all and realize that mainstream medicine is a crock and a money making business and doesn't always have our best interests at heart.
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#14 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 12:14 PM
 
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I see no way it will end in my lifetime.

I think it's more likely that mass vaccination will end in the relatively near future.

-Angela
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#15 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 12:19 PM
 
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It will never totally end. Remember the topic we can't talk about.

As far as cultural circ I'm pessimistic and currently just hoping my sister has another girl. I know the circ rates here in FL are very different from where she lives. When people in some parts of the US know there even is a choice to not cut their newborn then we might come closer to ridding most of the US of circ.

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#16 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 12:49 PM
 
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I would be happy if rates went down to 15 percent nation-wide.
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#17 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 01:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna View Post
I see no way it will end in my lifetime.

I think it's more likely that mass vaccination will end in the relatively near future.

-Angela
I don't think mass vaccination will ever end. There's no major movement to eliminate vaccinations and they're done the world over. There's no Doctors Opposing Vaccinations group. I doubt that many people want to go back to the days of getting the Mumps and the Measles. I sure don't. Can vaccines be made safer? Probably, but that goes for just about anything.

On the other hand, medical circumcision is an American oddity and isn't supported by medical evidence, nor is it done anywhere else. The only real holdups are cultural inertia, greed, and religion.
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#18 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 01:13 PM
 
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The "culture" of circumcision will likely end when the $$$ isn't there for the physicians.

Specifically even, when doctors are hit with lawsuits where it counts...the loss of money is a tremendous motivator for change. When doctors start getting sued, malpractice is not going to cover for the physicians that do them. Or, the malpractice rates will be SO HIGH that doctors will just stay away from doing them so they don't have to buy the coverage.

I have several aquaintances who are doctors, and believe me, in this day and age lawsuits and malpractice insurance is one of the foremost things on their minds sadly.

Perpetually breastfeeding or pregnant ENFP mom to a lot of kids...wife to a midwestern nice guy...living in tropical paradise...pink cats and homebirths rock!

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#19 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 01:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJr View Post
I don't think mass vaccination will ever end. There's no major movement to eliminate vaccinations and they're done the world over. There's no Doctors Opposing Vaccinations group. I doubt that many people want to go back to the days of getting the Mumps and the Measles. I sure don't. Can vaccines be made safer? Probably, but that goes for just about anything.

On the other hand, medical circumcision is an American oddity and isn't supported by medical evidence, nor is it done anywhere else. The only real holdups are cultural inertia, greed, and religion.
I think that in the not so distant future vaccination will be shown to be a poorly thought-through idea. Possibly a medical disaster on some fronts.

Circumcision is an OLD idea. Cultural inertia and religion are strong motivators.

-Angela
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#20 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 06:27 PM
 
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When Medicaid stops paying for it in all states.

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#21 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 06:38 PM
 
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I think it's a lot closer than we think it might be. But thats just my gut
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#22 of 23 Old 09-27-2007, 06:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Papai View Post
I would be happy if rates went down to 15 percent nation-wide.
I personally won't be happy about the circ rates until they are 0%.

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#23 of 23 Old 10-17-2007, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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kldliam,

I was so blown away by the info you shared that I copied it (with your user name on the bottom to give you credit) and posted it on other boards. People there were amazed as well and want to post it on other boards. I just wanted to give you a heads up in case you read something on a board and think: "hey! Those are my words!"
I hope you don't mind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kldliam View Post
It will end, IMHO, with a lawsuit that both challenges the FGM law and sues the hell out of the ACOG.

I spoke with someone at ARC (www.arclaw.com) who informed me about something called "standing". It is a leagal term that is used to describe who has the "right" to file a lawsuit.

*standing*
n. the right to file a lawsuit or file a petition
under the circumstances.


He informed me that the *most successful* way to win a
(RIC) circumcision case would be for the victim to
file....

"OK. The victim is a baby. Babies can't file lawsuits"
(how convieient!) .

He basically said that the victim CAN file at the time he 18. He
has exactly 1 year to file before the "statute of
limitations" expires. (not much time hun? Grrrr!)

*statute of limitations*
n. a law which sets the maximum period which one can
wait before filing a lawsuit, depending on the type of
case or claim. The periods vary by state
.

So the long and short of it is this: It will take 1 or
several (class-action lawsuit) 18 year old men who are
savy enough to know that they were victims of
circumcision to challenge the Big Medical Trade
Association and jointly challenge the
constitutionality of the FGM law, (which only
represents one sex not the other).

As far as money goes, I believe most attorneys collect
on a case only IF they win it. So I don't see funds as
being a problem for this 18 yr. old (they are usually
broke).

Someone needs to get behind their 18 yr. old
son one day and encourage him to file a lawsuit
against the doctor/hospital and trade Association
(likely ACOG) and sue for lack of personal consent.


The suit will be made stronger with the fact that it
is unconstitional to outlaw FGM (1996) and not MGM.


In order for the 18 year old to challenge the
constitutionality of the FGM law (this is critical
that it be challenged) he has to be 18 years old AFTER
the law came into existence. 1996.

http://www.mgmbill.org/usfgmlaw.htm

The suitable male canidates for this lawsuit are only
birth-11 years old right now.

When they reach 18, they will have a 1 year window of
opportunity to challenge the FGM law and sue the big
medical trade association. The OB's are the ones to
target as they perform most all circs. But if a Pedi did the circ, then the target would have to be the AAP.

If a lawsuit like the one described above is filed & won, circ
will likely end in the US
. The earliest time a suit
with standing can be brought is in 2014.

We have to wait until then I'm afraid, to find our man or men.
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