Why are you against circumcision? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 01:51 AM
 
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I have a girl, so have not been in the position to defend my belief about my own child, but I work in surgery with a group of urologists...none of whom will deglove an infant penis unless there is no other option. I have seen the poor little ones that have the so called "uncommon" complications to circs done my their mothers OBs, pediatricians, etc. Now, my daughter had to have labial surgery at 4 to treat a medical condition, and that was necessary. RIC is not. I would not remove my DD's breasts as a teen to prevent the much more likely risk of breast cancer in her future, or have her less than essential organs (tonsils, appendix, gall bladder, etc) removed because she MIGHT have problems later. Surgery is inherently dangerous. If children want to alter their bodies as adults, fine. But, I will not subject my children to an unnecessary surgery because it is the status quo.
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#32 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 02:13 AM
 
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Many seem to be against it because they found out that it may cause harm. For example parents who circ their first son find out that circing could be harmful, so they decide to not to do it to their second. But does that mean they would circ their future boys if it did not cause harm? Are there people here who would not be anti circumcision if the process did not cause any physical harm?
By definition it cause harm - removing the most sensitive part of the penis is harmful, and sick. The only way it couldn't cause harm would be if they just waved the scalpel around in the air near the baby and never touched them.
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#33 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 02:33 AM
 
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The best estimate is that 200 baby boys a year die from genital mutilation surgery in the U.S. That's 400 grieving parents and 800 grieving grandparents, not to mention the brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins and friends. If a family loses a baby to birth defects, cancer or other catastrophic illness, they might recover in time and go on with life. In the case of unnecessary elective surgery, it would be very difficult to ever get over it.
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#34 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 03:34 AM
 
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hrmph? maybe i'm not getting this thread.

i am extremely pleased with my own hood piercing, don't feel it was harmful in form or function in any way, and if i get bored, i can take it off with no repercussions. i am an informed, consenting adult.

would i think it still wasn't a big deal if someone suggested i run into my piercing parlor and requested it done to my child's prepuce? (or um, finally snap & run screaming, "WHY WON'T THEY LEAVE OTHER PEOPLE'S PARTS ALOOOOONE?!!1!")

NOT MY CROTCH! NOT MY DECISION to pierce it, scarify it, clip it, nip it, carve my initials in it, or cut the pertinent parts off (or out, as the case may be).

Why is this such a hurdle for people to wrap their minds around?

I wonder if we can make some inroads into people's head-ass stuckage about circ if we discuss it frankly (as it rightly ought, in a perfect world) as an adult body mod. (i don't think our fetishists will enjoy their welcome to the little community much, if they don't stop hanging around parenting forums trying to convince peeps to do it to their babies- body modders have kids, too).

all i want is for them to lay off the kids, and the more the general public associates a dramatic body-mod ritual like circ, with the guys who fork their tongues or shoot their scrotums with 6 lb of silicone, the more our fetishists will have to live in the legitimate non-brainwashed world, the world where drastic genital body modification is something CHOSEN by ADULTS for THEMSELVES.
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#35 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 04:05 AM
 
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Why am I against it? Because it's cruel and unnecessary. There are absolutely NO valid reasons for ever circumcising your son or daughter.
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#36 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 04:40 AM
 
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Well, I have 2 intact boys, so I don't know all the reasons why someone would circ the first and not the second, although I think it usually involves either 1) more information w/ the second or 2) negative experiences with the first.

Why am I against RIC? Well, I do see it as a human rights issue, or maybe even more simply, a common sense issue: I don't go around cutting off parts of my kids w/o a damned good reason. I'm their mom and my #1 job, imo, is to protect them from harm. Circ'ing is HARMFUL, simple as that.

I'm leaning towards common sense, now that I think about it. When DS1 was an infant, he was in the hospital for multiple surgeries & I could have had him circ'd w/o much pain - he was on a morphine drip until he was 2 months old. I still didn't see the point in it. I was confronted with the fact that some parts of him didn't work the way they were meant to.... his penis, on the other hand, was fine & I chose to leave it that way.
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#37 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 04:45 AM
 
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I have seen hundreds and hundreds of men have orgasams. Here is what I observed;

1. all men seem to enjoy their pensis and O's feel good
2. pleasure is subjective
3. INTACT MEN APPEAR TO HAVE MORE INTENSE ENJOYABLE ORGASMS.


btw - how could you circumcise without causing physical harm?
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#38 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 06:07 AM
 
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I personally wouldn't care if it was the most painless thing ever...I wouldn't be comfortable doing it. It would still need to be surgery, even if it were painfree, & I don't even put myself through unneeded simple medical procedures if I can totally avoid it. Therefore, I wouldn't put my child or anyone I was responsible for though anything I see as pointless. Even my dh gets tired of hearing me ask him "are you sure they need to do that?" when it comes to his medical choices. I'm paranoid about all things medical anyway, so I like to be informed & try the least invasive things possible at first. I've has a co-worker whose baby was born with a heart issue & had to have open heart surgery within the first 24 hours of life. I'll feel blessed to have a healthy, happy baby who doesn't NEED medical interventions. So I wouldn't choose one because, well, others choose to do it. There aren't enough reasons to medically circ either. My DH was actually sold of circ even when I was first pregnant, but when he actually researched it, watched it, & thought about it, he agreed that he didn't think there were reasons to do it. That's how this baby is being left intact. As much as I convinced myself I'd be OK if we ended up circ'ing before I got pregnant, I look back now & realize I would never actually have been able to allow it to happen. Never. I couldn't ever watch it. I'd be hysterical as I handed him off to have it done. If I have that reaction to something, I shouldn't be allowing it in my opinion. As a mom, that's my job.

Maybe I'm weird, I've always been against circ, even as a young teenager & before I had even seen a penis. I just didn't understand why a parent would do that to a baby. I've seen a diaper change for a baby who had just been circ'ed & it was super upsetting to me. I don't think I could physically change my son's diaper if he was circed, it's an upsetting sight for me. I've even seen it on TV on those baby shows, once I saw one where they were actually have to pry the diaper off of his penis, you could see the blood & everything. The baby was just screaming, mom was crying, & dad was doing anything he could to help make it better, but how can you really make it better? I started crying myself & had to turn it. Even through a TV I couldn't deal with it, it was just too much. And I can't just get over that for the reasons most of my friends & family are pro-circ...no one has ever disareed with me because of health reasons, but only for appereance & because "everyone else does it!" About 6 years ago my friend was pregnant with her first baby & before they found out it was a girl she brought up how she cringed at the idea of taking care of a circ. When I mentioned she didn't have to do it (mind you, I was 17 at the time, so that was an odd stance for a 17 year old to take according to everyone I knew), she got upset & said she would never make her son "weird" & her sister, who was near 30, mentioned that if I ever had a son she'd never want to have sex with him if he wasn't circ'ed. My response was, "Um, if you ever even consider having sex with my son, you'll have bigger problems than his penis when I find out." I've even had someone else, who did circ of course, say the only reason she did it was because she'd hate for someone to fall in love with him, but be unable to be with him seriously because he was intact. I about fell out of my chair. When I fell in love with DH I never once thought, "gee, I hope he's cut, or I'll have to dump him even though he's wonderful in every way."

So, after a long winded post, even if it were a tickle & just a "snip" like people say, I wouldn't do it. I don't see a reason to take a perfect baby & remove something for no reason at all. He may need his tonsils out one day, too, but I wouldn't let them do that as a newborn either.
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#39 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 11:47 AM
 
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Even if it was harmless it is still a purely cosmetic surgery and I can't decide for my children if they want THEIR bodies cosmetically altered. I couldn't take my newborn daughter to get breast implants or labiaplasty (or whatever it's called) so why should I be able to cosmetically alter my son's penis?


Really the idea (circumcising babies/children) is absolutely absurd and I think most would see that if we (general) weren't socially conditioned not to.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#40 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 12:58 PM
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Setting aside, for a moment, all the harm it does do to a boy, circumcision is still dis-empowering to a mother:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#41 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by thefragile7393 View Post

I truely would do anything to take back that day for my son. Why the *(&(*$ I didn't come here and READ and just let people tell me what to do in my hormone fog I will never know. I was already a member here. WHY WHY WHY didn't I come here??? I was such a complete idiot.



When you know better, you do better.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#42 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 05:04 PM
 
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I have been reading this board for a while, and have been surprised by the reasoning for why many here became anti circ. Many seem to be against it because they found out that it may cause harm. For example parents who circ their first son find out that circing could be harmful, so they decide to not to do it to their second. But does that mean they would circ their future boys if it did not cause harm? I ask this because personally I believe above all else the most important point here is that boys are having their basic human rights taken away from them. Are there people here who would not be anti circumcision if the process did not cause any physical harm?
I think circ is so pervasive in our society that people just assume. They assume that it is necessary, they assume that it doesn't hurt (or not much), that it would need to be done anyway, later, when it would "hurt more," etc.

Also - since we don't talk about sex or sexual parts, I think quite a few people have no idea what's involved in a circumcision. If they aren't present when it's done, either -- well, then even afterwards how would they know how much was done? KWIM? If all you've ever seen is a circ'd penis (my experience) then how would you know what's missing, when society says it's fine and doesn't hurt?

We have dd's, no sons. We decided we wouldn't circumcise before our first dd - but not because of "hurt" or "his decision" -- basically because if the foreskin was something that needed to be removed, it wouldn't be there in the first place. I had no idea at the time that we made that decision, how harmful circs could be. I thought circ'd boys were really not so different from a non-circ'd boy - I didn't really know what was involved in the circumcision at all. I did know it hurt - but didn't know much more than that (hurts like stubbing your toe? Hurts like a huge part of your body is removed without anaesthetic?)

I guess what I'm saying is that the HARM button is the slap in the face which some people need .... they think that they're helping their child, they think it's a "normal" process and they are doing this out of love and concern for their child. To learn that not only is it not helping their child, but that the harm is both short and long-term --- I think that carries some weight.

Frankly while I too believe that children are their own person, and don't feel "ownership" of my child - I don't know that all/much of our society takes that approach. There are a lot of people who are still trying to control their adult children, and who think that parents are weak if they aren't controlling their toddlers/infants too .... While I agree with the "His penis, his choice" approach, I just don't think that can always fly as well with those people who believe that they ARE TOO the boss of the child, KWIM?

Not all who wander are lost.
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#43 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 08:12 PM
 
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I believe that every reason to circumcise (locker room, look like dad, hygeine) can be countered with a reason NOT to circumcise (looking at someone in the locker room is frowned upon, he won't care what his dad looks like or he may find it gross to think of that, teach them to wash down there daily)

For me, it comes down to that it's his body and his choice. Since it's not an absolutely necessary thing to do, i'd rather leave it up to him.

Should he be teased, i'll just use it as a diversity lesson. Some people have black hair, some people have blond hair. Some people have long legs, some people have no legs, etc.

If he does want one, I may try to talk him out of it. Now, if he's 13 and wants it, that's one thing. But i'd imagine there'd be a certain age that if he wants it, he can be free to get it. (I don't see myself telling an 18 year old not to get it.)
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#44 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 10:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by A&A View Post
Setting aside, for a moment, all the harm it does do to a boy, circumcision is still dis-empowering to a mother:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm
Good point.

I know it's forbidden to discuss it here, but there are religious issues which link in with the ideas in the link as well.
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#45 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 10:51 PM
 
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I am anti-circ for many reasons. But really, I developed strong feelings for the various reasons at different times if that makes sense.

At times I focused on how it didn't actually provide the supposed health benefits.

At times I focused on the pain factor.

I think I focused on things for weeks/months at a time over the last 4 years and now, I have really gone through all the issues I believe. I feel strongly about them all, but probably strongest about the child not having any say in what happens to his own body. And this is a case where he *could* have say if parents would just leave it up to him, meaning not do it at all. I focus on the absurdity of how parents think this is a "parenting decision" when it just isn't.
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#46 of 51 Old 11-04-2007, 10:54 PM
 
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I think first and foremost circumcision is a human rights violation.

However, my goal as an intactivist is two fold: end circumcision and save as many boys as possible.

That means that I use whatever approach works. If a risk emphasis approach seems like it will change a person's mind, then that's what I go with. If they seem inclined to embrace reasoning about sexual side effects, I go with that.

So, it might seem like I am against it for a million reasons (which I am), and depending on who you ask, they might think I emphasize different aspects. But my ultimate reason is the violation of the boy's rights and bodily integrity.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#47 of 51 Old 11-05-2007, 12:59 AM
 
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I hate to think of someone so innocent subjected to so much pain, unnecessarily. It's unethical.
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#48 of 51 Old 11-05-2007, 02:07 AM
 
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I'm anti-circ for many reasons, but mostly because I would not alter someone's body without consent and/or desire to do so.

Angel , wife to Daniel :, mama to Astrid Lilith (11/01/06) and Leland Hunter (09/07/09)
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#49 of 51 Old 11-05-2007, 01:43 PM
 
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I see circ as a human rights violation. It's HIS body, his choice. Nobody has a right to cut off healthy pieces of it without his consent.

Ann-Marita. I deleted my usual signature due to, oh, wait, if I say why, that might give too much away. 

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#50 of 51 Old 11-06-2007, 01:37 AM
 
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<<I hate to think of someone so innocent subjected to so much pain, unnecessarily. It's unethical.>>

Even if a man was "so guilty", it would be an outrage to amputate healthy tissue as a punishment. so, yes, why would you do it to one so new and innocent? None of it makes any sense.
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#51 of 51 Old 11-06-2007, 01:45 AM
 
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I choose not to circumcise my children because I think it is cruel. To cause immense physical pain for no reason at all... how on Earth does that make sense? kwim? But beyond that, it's not my penis. I do not have the right (or shouldn't at least) to choose to take a piece of his body away from him simply because I don't like how it looks, or because it's not the "cultural norm."

I love my son and would never hurt him. Circumcision falls into that. If he had a true medical need for circumcision (as they are some, very very very very very few though) then yes, we would circumcise him. But we would explore and exhaust every other possible solution before even remotely considering that. And get may many different opinions on the matter, not just take 1, 2, or even 3 doctor's opinions on it. It would never be something we would lightly choose to do.
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