uncircumcised can cause cervical cancer - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 31 Old 08-05-2003, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
noodle4u's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Last night I was thinking about penises, and how some argue that an uncirc. penis can cause cervical cancer. I have heard this argument a few times now and am wondering if
this is because people think the foreskin irritates the cervic' or brings germs or what ever into the body (dumb argument at any rate), but then I was remember something someone had posted about the foreskin retracting during intercourse. So wouldnt by the time the penis was, hmm how do I word this.. well all the way in, the tip would be fully exposed, and that particular argument should be rendered even more completely useless.
Im basically just trying to organize my thoughts, and would like to hear what others think on the matter.
noodle4u is offline  
#2 of 31 Old 08-05-2003, 02:04 PM
 
momto3boys's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Cervical cancer is caused by HPV. Some "studies" have shown intact men have a higher incidence of carrying this. Although the Harborview Study in Seattle has basically refuted this.

If an intact virgin man marries a virgin woman the foreskin would not in anyway cause cervical cancer.

HPV is transmitted sexually. Just like any other STD. It is a very common one. I've heard some stats say as many as 1 in 4 carry this. So if you have unprotected sex with more than 4 people you have a greater risk of contracting this... female, intact or circ'd.

So it's really about sexual activity and not about the foreskin. The foreskin does not make cervical cancer. Or penile cancer for that matter. HPV(genital warts) does.
momto3boys is offline  
#3 of 31 Old 08-05-2003, 02:08 PM
 
laralou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: little house in the suburbs
Posts: 4,904
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The argument is that an uncirc'd penis is more susceptable to HPV (genital warts), a man with HPV can then give HPV to his partner, and a woman with HPV can develop cervical cancer.

All statements above are factually true, but I don't think it is a valid argument for circumcision. I think it is a valid argument for using protection when having sex and for being careful when choosing sex partners.

I have never had sex with an uncircumcised man and I have cervical cancer (in remission). Circumcising your son will not ensure that he won't get or give HPV or that his partners will not develop cervical cancer.
laralou is offline  
#4 of 31 Old 08-05-2003, 02:14 PM
 
laralou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: little house in the suburbs
Posts: 4,904
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
momto3boys, we posted at the same time...

here is the first link that popped up when I googled circumcision and hpv:

Circumcision and HPV

What I found funny about the article was that only 95% of the men in the story reported their intactness or lack thereof accurately. So 5% were wrong about whether they were circumcised or not. Bet those were some sharp cookies!
laralou is offline  
#5 of 31 Old 08-05-2003, 02:14 PM
 
suspenseful's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: graceland
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This myth was also prepetuated by a study that showed a lower incidence of cervical cancer among observant Jewish women, and thus a big leap in logic led some to draw a causal relationship between foreskin and cervical cancer.
suspenseful is offline  
#6 of 31 Old 08-05-2003, 05:36 PM
 
calngavinsmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada....EH!?!
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I agree with what the other two posters are saying, the cancer is caused by HPV not the foreskin(evil as it may be. The American cancer society has even issued a statement about using cancer as an excuse for RIC.
http://www.cirp.org/library/statemen...s/1996-02_ACS/

Here are a couple of more articles about it,
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/vanhowe1/
http://www.geocities.com/Hotsprings/...1/pcancer.html

On a personal note, I know two women, one who is my sister who have had part of their cervixes removed as early cancer(abnormal cells)treatment. Both had HPV that caused their cancers. Both got HPV from having unprotected sex with circumcised men.

Take care,
Tara

P.S. to the OP, we are also in Ontario, Niagara region. I always think its neat to see someone from the same area as us

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
calngavinsmom is offline  
#7 of 31 Old 08-06-2003, 12:38 AM
 
Frankly Speaking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North Atlanta
Posts: 5,162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Let me throw a little shocker into the discussion. In a study of 13-15 year old girls, testing found that 54% of them had HPV at some time.

A little explanation . . . HPV is an easily transmittable disease. It can be transmitted sexually or as easily as shaking hands. It can be present on any part of the body, even hands, face and hair and touching any of these infected areas can transmit the disease. The good part of this story is that most people develop an immunity to the disease. However, that being said, the disease leaves it's tracks. If a person has ever had the disease, it will show up in DNA testing and thus, how these girls had the evidence of the infection. They were for the most part, infected as they passed through their mother's birth canal.

Now, as far as intact men giving their wives/girlfriends/one-night-stands HPV and cervical cancer . . . . The progression of HPV to cervical cancer takes approximately two decades. That means that if you have cervical cancer, the person who infected you did it approximately 15-20 years ago. Who did it????????

A little reason and logic can tell you that it is extremely difficult to lay blame on any one individual and therefore almost impossible to lay it at the doorstep of an intact man. Another of the many myths of circumcision falls victim to knowledge, reason and logic.

(Resources: American Medical Association, National Campaign for HPV and Cervical Cancer, American Cancer Society)


Frank
Frankly Speaking is offline  
#8 of 31 Old 08-06-2003, 02:40 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
... by suspenseful
... This myth was also prepetuated by a study that showed a lower incidence of cervical cancer among observant Jewish women, and thus a big leap in logic led some to draw a causal relationship between foreskin and cervical cancer.
That's a huge, ridiculous leap in logic, since then there'd be a lower incidence of cervical cancer among all women married to Jewish men, observant or not, since bris is one of the most adhered-to traditions.

The lower incidence of cervical cancer is more correctly attributed to the observant woman's abstention from sexual relations during her period and for one week afterwards.
merpk is offline  
#9 of 31 Old 08-06-2003, 11:47 AM
 
Sarah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
merpk... you have any info on your idea that having sex before, during, or after, your period causes cervical cancer... I had not heard this one. (!!!)

I had always assumed that the "observant" clause of the study had to do with the fact that the observant women were married to observant men and both were virgins when they were married- hence, exposure to certain STDs were not an issue within their adult sexual experiences.

A concept so obvious that the cervical cancer conclusions of those scientists should have been thrown out based on sheer stupidity.

Love Sarah
Sarah is offline  
#10 of 31 Old 08-06-2003, 12:14 PM
 
Sarah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
http://www.cirp.org/AAP/letters/1997-05_WHO/
Sarah is offline  
#11 of 31 Old 08-06-2003, 12:46 PM
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 32,562
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm not sure what the possible correlation to when you have sex (during AF ect) would have to do with this. I'd love to see some scientific evidence to back this up.
Arduinna is offline  
#12 of 31 Old 08-06-2003, 06:04 PM
 
laralou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: little house in the suburbs
Posts: 4,904
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Frankly Speaking
Now, as far as intact men giving their wives/girlfriends/one-night-stands HPV and cervical cancer . . . . The progression of HPV to cervical cancer takes approximately two decades. That means that if you have cervical cancer, the person who infected you did it approximately 15-20 years ago. Who did it
I am in a support group for survivors of cervical cancer and since we all got it in our early 20's, just a few years after being sexually active, I would be interested to see where this is cited. Link, please?
laralou is offline  
#13 of 31 Old 08-06-2003, 07:56 PM
 
MelKnee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Upstate California
Posts: 1,208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Laralou,

Not all cervical cancers are caused by HPV.

Momma to three fine children, one that lives in my heart and two that live in my arms.
Circumcision is wrong, regardless of gender
MelKnee is offline  
#14 of 31 Old 08-06-2003, 07:59 PM
 
MelKnee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Upstate California
Posts: 1,208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Even if foreskins do cause or encrease cervical cancers, shouldn't it be up to the man and his potential partners to decide whether they wish to assume that risk?

Momma to three fine children, one that lives in my heart and two that live in my arms.
Circumcision is wrong, regardless of gender
MelKnee is offline  
#15 of 31 Old 08-06-2003, 08:16 PM
 
Quirky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 12,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have HPV and I have never slept with an uncircumcized man. I also agree that it's almost impossible to prevent the transmission of this virus; condoms won't suffice.

I also think Frank's timetable is off....

Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

Quirky is offline  
#16 of 31 Old 08-06-2003, 08:36 PM
 
laralou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: little house in the suburbs
Posts: 4,904
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by MelKnee
Laralou,

Not all cervical cancers are caused by HPV.
I know, but he was specifically talking about how long it takes for HPV to cause cervical ca and all the people I am talking about have HPV and developed cervical ca within a few years (me- it took 6 months).
laralou is offline  
#17 of 31 Old 08-07-2003, 08:52 AM
 
Frankly Speaking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North Atlanta
Posts: 5,162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Much of what I wrote came from the AMA website last year before it went to pay-per-view and is no longer available for free. However, I did find some of the research at www.cirp.org and will try to find the other information from other sources. Here is what I found:

“Combining the data from this and the previous study and excluding inadequate specimens, the worldwide HPV prevalence in cervical carcinomas is 99.7 per cent.”

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/walboomers1/

“the HPV genotypes in the men did not match those in their partners. This finding strongly suggests that the relation between HPV in men and that in their partners was not one of simple transmission.”

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/...tters10-31-02/

“Recent studies show that condoms ("rubbers") cannot completely protect against HPV infection. This is because HPV can be passed from person to person by skin-to-skin contact with any HPV-infected area of the body, such as skin of the genital or anal area not covered by the condom.”

“Recent studies suggest that women whose mother or sisters have had cervical cancer are more likely to develop the disease” (Transmission from mother?)

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/cri/co...p?sitearea=cri





Frank
Frankly Speaking is offline  
#18 of 31 Old 08-07-2003, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
noodle4u's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for the knowledge everyone! and for the record, Iam against circumcision.

hello Callumsmom, Im in Guelph!
noodle4u is offline  
#19 of 31 Old 08-07-2003, 09:37 PM
 
MelKnee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Upstate California
Posts: 1,208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by laralou
I know, but he was specifically talking about how long it takes for HPV to cause cervical ca and all the people I am talking about have HPV and developed cervical ca within a few years (me- it took 6 months).
Oh, Ok. I didn't realize you have HPV. Sorry.

Momma to three fine children, one that lives in my heart and two that live in my arms.
Circumcision is wrong, regardless of gender
MelKnee is offline  
#20 of 31 Old 08-07-2003, 11:12 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
... by Sarah
[B]merpk... you have any info on your idea that having sex before, during, or after, your period causes cervical cancer... I had not heard this one. (!!!)

I had always assumed that the "observant" clause of the study had to do with the fact that the observant women were married to observant men and both were virgins when they were married- hence, exposure to certain STDs were not an issue within their adult sexual experiences ...


Fascinated by your assumptions about virginity. But that's another topic.




My information comes purely from the cervical cancer studies I referred to. Among American Jewish women as a whole, who early in the 20th century were much more observant of Jewish laws of family relations (abstaining during and immediately following menstruation), cervical cancer rates were lower than the rest of the population by a wide margin.

As the 20th century marched on and assimilation expanded and observance of the laws of family relations waned, Jewish women's cervical cancer rates went up to match the rest of the population.
merpk is offline  
#21 of 31 Old 08-08-2003, 12:24 AM
 
Frankly Speaking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North Atlanta
Posts: 5,162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Amy:

I just happened to come accross this while I was looking for more information on cervical cancer and HPV. It appears to contradict what you have said.

"Levels of HPV-fighting antibodies fluctuated substantially in the cervical tissue of the non-pill users, reaching their lowest point around ovulation, the researchers report Tuesday in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute.”

http://www.wcn.org/interior.cfm?feat...=3&rev_id=1623





Frank
Frankly Speaking is offline  
#22 of 31 Old 08-08-2003, 12:39 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Frank, come on, we're not talking about circumcision, so everything I say isn't wrong, okay?

But seriously, I'm not talking about HPV, either. My comments were directed specifically at the diagnosis of cervical cancer.
And whatever you've got there, the studies I referred to are: Jewish women had substantially lower rates of cervical cancer when abstention from relations during &immediately following menstruation was a more widespread observance. When following the laws became less common, cervical cancer became more common.
merpk is offline  
#23 of 31 Old 08-08-2003, 02:41 PM
 
Sarah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Amy... I'm curious if the historical fluctuation of the observance of this abstaining during and after menstruation might also coincide with a difference in legalistic attitudes about premarital sex and virginity and marriage...


You have not provided any refrence for your belief that the coincidence of these rules about menstruation and the incidence of cervical cancer are in any way CAUSITIVELY linked... how do we know that it's not any other of the hundereds of rules which could be randomly pegged for the reason why observant Jewish women hav a lower rate of cervical cancer?

State your source- because you have not come any where close to mentioning how sex during menstruation could be the cause of cervical cancer.


And yet the most obvious... my presumption that observant men and women might not be slutting around before marriage is being met by you with mocking big eyes? Because I presumed that every unmarried observant Jew was not clambering to squeeze through legalistic loopholes of only abstaining from adulturous involvment with married people? Of excuse me for giving them the benefit of the doubt!

I still think that presuming that the observant Jews observing at the time the original cervical cancer info was noticed were not engaging in premarital sex and thusly were less likely to have been exposed to HPV and less likely to develop cervical cancer is the most reasonable explanation for any of this.

Instead of mocking my theory... explain to me how your works.
Sarah is offline  
#24 of 31 Old 08-08-2003, 06:51 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sarah, one of us does have a mocking attitude here, and it's not me.



My source is from a book called "American Orthodoxy," forgive me for not knowing the author at the moment off the top of my head, read it a long time ago, and found the statistic about Jewish women's cancer rates startling, particularly because I was just starting to observe the laws myself.

And I can't give you any further sources than that. I read about the statistic in a book. Sue me.



I'm not talking about menstruation and cancer rates, only about observance of Taharat haMishpakha and cancer rates.

The statistics include previously married Jewish women, remarried Jewish women, etc.



And your remarks about "jumping through legalistic loopholes" tells me you've got some issues with Jewishly observant people. Well, work 'em out elsewhere, please, and don't jump on me.



I only entered this thread because of a previous post trying to link the known statistic about Jewish women's one-time low cervical cancer rates with circumcision, which is erroneous. I added my view, which makes sense, considering that assimilation through the middle of the 20th century made the laws of T.h'M not so widely practiced, ie., not so many very observant people around. And Jewish women's rates went up.



I wish I knew why you were so intent on attacking this and me.

Then again, no, I don't care. Never mind.
merpk is offline  
#25 of 31 Old 08-08-2003, 06:57 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
And if I may add, Sarah, there aren't "hundreds of rules" that are even remotely related to the Jewish woman's cervix. So sorry to disappoint you.

Only one: Taharat ha'Mishpakha, which requires no sexual contact during menstruation or for one week immediately following.






Have I said this enough?










Really, I don't know why this is becoming such an ordeal on this thread. I was agreeing with you all, that I couldn't imagine how circumcision could effect cancer rates.

Or maybe I misread, and you were all excited to see a connection?

Either way, never mind. You all just like arguing with me, I think.

merpk is offline  
#26 of 31 Old 08-08-2003, 07:24 PM
 
Sarah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You still haven't explained the reason why you think that sex during a period or in the week following has anything to do with cervical cancer.
Sarah is offline  
#27 of 31 Old 08-08-2003, 09:19 PM
 
Frankly Speaking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North Atlanta
Posts: 5,162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Amy:

I didn't intend to attack you or really be argumentative. I just happened to find that report of research that was just released this week. I was simply adding more information to the discussion. You said:

“The lower incidence of cervical cancer is more correctly attributed to the observant woman's abstention from sexual relations during her period and for one week afterwards.”

And:

“My information comes purely from the cervical cancer studies I referred to. Among American Jewish women as a whole, who early in the 20th century were much more observant of Jewish laws of family relations (abstaining during and immediately following menstruation), cervical cancer rates were lower than the rest of the population by a wide margin.”

I suspect that the studies you refer to are observational studies and assume a link and this week's study seems to say that is probably not true. This week's study said that there are more antibodies present during menustration and fewer during ovulation. This would make the time that Jewish women refrained from sexual relations the time least likely to acquire HPV. What this really tells us that Jewish women's lower HPV probably had to do with some other influence other than refraining from sex during menses.

There are probably a thousand things that would have to be studied to nail it down to one particular thing. It could be that Jewish women have a genetically higher immunity to HPV and inter-faith marriages have weakened that immunity. I don't know and I don't think anyone knows the real reason. However, it is natural for people to "suppose" and theorize. I think that may be what has happened.





Frank
Frankly Speaking is offline  
#28 of 31 Old 08-08-2003, 10:49 PM
 
Nathan1097's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Senior-Title-Less!
Posts: 3,534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/index6.html

There's some about the history behind the cervical/penile cancer myth.
Nathan1097 is offline  
#29 of 31 Old 08-08-2003, 10:49 PM
 
laralou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: little house in the suburbs
Posts: 4,904
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Let's leave out the personal comments and stick to the discussion. If you have a personal issue with another member, take it to PM.
laralou is offline  
#30 of 31 Old 08-09-2003, 12:06 AM
 
member234098's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Behind you.
Posts: 3,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
CAtholic Nuns have a very low rate of cervical cancer also.

But they have a high rate of breast cancer.

Take your pick of lifestyle.
member234098 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off