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#61 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 02:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HeidiAnn67 View Post
just as an intact partner does not automatically guarentee a great sex life.
There is so much more involved then just the foreskin when it comes to good and bad sex.

I also find it strange that I read posts on here about how awful parents who circ are for caring about what their childs penis looks like. How it's awful to care about those things (perverted even), yet it's okay to think about your toddlers and newborns future sex life as connected to whether they find a partner with a foreskin. I've quite honostly never considerd my 4 year olds future sex life.

Also, I find it funny that everyone here seems to be agreeing that she'll probably run into circ'd partners, yet at the same time are posting statistics that show the circ rate really low (especially if she lives or ends up living on the west coast). Personally I think those rates are overblown and that the circ rate is higher then being posted here and in reality she probably will end up with a circ'd partner. Just found it funny that no one seemed to assume she had a good chance of finding an intact parter.

I will attempt to address the bolded parts in order:

1) First, this is a total red herring. But, beyond that, many here do not think its perverted, though sometimes if relatives or friends are badgering a mother or father about choosingnot to circumcise, we will tell them that their choices are none of their business. I stay away from telling people "my kid's penis is none of your business" because it is ambiguous when you look at our goal to stop circumcision.

We aren't constantly focused on these boys' penises, we are focused on stopping mutilation of said body part; but the two are so closely linked it can sometimes become confusing to people. It's not the penis that is our business, it is the action of circumcision, of mutilation, of skinning of said penis that is our business.

I think worrying about a future sexual experience of one's daughter as it relates to circumcision is just a projection of how we think about the greater problem. I worry the rates will not continue to fall, but I am confident they will. But there is that confliction and worry. There is nothing wrong or perverted about that worry...that circumcision rates will remain high in this country (leading to further circumcised adults....the cycle continues)

Also, worrying about a daughter marrying a circumcised man can be very real because, as we see time and time again, circumcised men often push hard to have the child done as well.

2) Living in the USA, I know how it feels to embrace the numbers falling but also to fear their rise. It is a conflict inside of me...much of it depends on how the AAP rules...they are currently rethinking their circumcision stance and are due to release the new stance in a few months time.

In threads like this that fear is going to be more apparent. Sometimes it is just like that. that doesn't mean there isn't a ton of hope on this board-- or even within myself-- but when we talk of fears, as this OP is, it brings out the thought of fears in all of us.

3) obviously even you have those fears according to your comment here. But the numbers dont lie. On the west coast, not many boys are being cut anymore. The numbers are falling everywhere...and while there are bris's not being counted in many of those numbers, there are also homebirths and birth centers not being counted.

So we continue to hope and work hard for our goal.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#62 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 02:40 PM
 
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It never occurred yo me that there was a big difference(for the woman) when it comes to sex with an intact versus Circ'd man, care to enlighten me? Dh is intact btw so I may just be clueless since it's been so long since I was with a circ man.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=709119
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#63 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 02:42 PM
 
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Also here:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=784377

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#64 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 02:44 PM
 
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random thought that a PP brought to my head...not necessary about anyone in this particular thread:


It is a common defense mechanism for people to meet intactivism with "you spend your day thinking about penises" or some other line that implies a wrongness about the subject itself.

It's too bad those sentiments cannot get around the cultural blinders....we could use that passion in the fight against the thing that is really wrong and disgusting and cruel: circumcision itself!

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#65 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 02:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HeidiAnn67 View Post
Just found it funny that no one seemed to assume she had a good chance of finding an intact parter.
I don't know where the OP is from, but where I'm at the circ rate is under 40%...so I do think they would have a really good chance to having around half intact partners.

Perpetually breastfeeding or pregnant ENFP mom to a lot of kids...wife to a midwestern nice guy...living in tropical paradise...pink cats and homebirths rock!

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#66 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 02:56 PM
 
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And even if you think the numbers are less than reality, just think that, with current trends, they will be MUCH lower in 15 years...even factoring in this margain of error that HeidiAnn feels is there, it would definitely be around 50% by then.

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#67 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 02:58 PM
 
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Interesting that in your experience a man lacking an important part (for sexual function at the least) of his penis makes no difference when it comes to intercourse. It's seem illogical but whatever I guess. :
Have you ever had sex with an intact man? A circ'd man?

It's really kind of condescending for you to tell me that *my* personal experience, which you know absolutely nothing about is "illogical."

I spent 5 years with an intact man. I'm sorry if my experience doesn't fit into your worldview, but being passive aggressive isn't really going to do anything to change that. It is what it is.

I'm against RIC as much as the next person here, but I also am seeing a lot of talk about people who aren't anti RIC as having "blinders" on. Yet if someone comes and discusses their own experience and is shot down because it goes against the message that the hardcore anti-circ folks want to send out, it is immediately shut down. So tell me, who has the blinders on here?

This is not to say that circ does not ever have any negative effect on a person's sex life (for either partner); there are plenty of accounts here that say otherwise. But I do not believe for a second that it always has to have a negative impact. There are just far too many factors to look at.

If you really want to break down all of these barriers and really make a difference, then you have got to stop seeing everything as so black and white. Because until you do, you are going to alienate people and turn them off to what you are trying to teach them.
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#68 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 02:59 PM
 
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Correct. But do you deny that circumcision can impact a man's sexuality negatively? Circumcised women claim to still have orgasms and enjoy sex despite having their external clitorises removed, but none of use would ever say "There's more to good sex than just the clitoris" :
Clitoris to foreskin is a really ridiculous comparison, although on this forum I'm sure I will hear all about how it is not. But ya ain't gonna convince me, and over dramatization really weakens the argument.
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#69 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:05 PM
 
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Have you ever had sex with an intact man? A circ'd man?

It's really kind of condescending for you to tell me that *my* personal experience, which you know absolutely nothing about is "illogical."

I spent 5 years with an intact man. I'm sorry if my experience doesn't fit into your worldview, but being passive aggressive isn't really going to do anything to change that. It is what it is.

I'm against RIC as much as the next person here, but I also am seeing a lot of talk about people who aren't anti RIC as having "blinders" on. Yet if someone comes and discusses their own experience and is shot down because it goes against the message that the hardcore anti-circ folks want to send out, it is immediately shut down. So tell me, who has the blinders on here?

This is not to say that circ does not ever have any negative effect on a person's sex life (for either partner); there are plenty of accounts here that say otherwise. But I do not believe for a second that it always has to have a negative impact. There are just far too many factors to look at.

If you really want to break down all of these barriers and really make a difference, then you have got to stop seeing everything as so black and white. Because until you do, you are going to alienate people and turn them off to what you are trying to teach them.
I believe the blinders quote was me, and, no I would never say that sex is any one way or another.

I think the best course of action is to talk about the functions of the foreskin in relation to sex, but also in relation to the protection of the man's penis and in heightening his sexual pleasure (see rcent BJU study). If we can get people to value those things, perhaps the idea of personal sexual experiences will just go away. It won't matter anymore if someone once had a circumcised partner and liked it better than an intact man...because the value of the male's complete body and all that goes along with that will supercede any notions of "better sex" 'for me'.

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#70 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:06 PM
 
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Have you ever had sex with an intact man? A circ'd man?

It's really kind of condescending for you to tell me that *my* personal experience, which you know absolutely nothing about is "illogical."

I spent 5 years with an intact man. I'm sorry if my experience doesn't fit into your worldview, but being passive aggressive isn't really going to do anything to change that. It is what it is.

I'm against RIC as much as the next person here, but I also am seeing a lot of talk about people who aren't anti RIC as having "blinders" on. Yet if someone comes and discusses their own experience and is shot down because it goes against the message that the hardcore anti-circ folks want to send out, it is immediately shut down. So tell me, who has the blinders on here?

This is not to say that circ does not ever have any negative effect on a person's sex life (for either partner); there are plenty of accounts here that say otherwise. But I do not believe for a second that it always has to have a negative impact. There are just far too many factors to look at.

If you really want to break down all of these barriers and really make a difference, then you have got to stop seeing everything as so black and white. Because until you do, you are going to alienate people and turn them off to what you are trying to teach them.
I wasn't discounting your experiences. I just think it's odd that having the foreskin removed doesn't affect sex at all, makes absolutely no difference. It is illogical to ME. There are rare things in the world that really are black and white. Sexual experiences are NOT one of those things.

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#71 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:06 PM
 
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Clitoris to foreskin is a really ridiculous comparison, although on this forum I'm sure I will hear all about how it is not. But ya ain't gonna convince me, and over dramatization really weakens the argument.
I would not say many here would compare the clitoris to the foreskin. The clitoral hood perhaps but not the clitoris itself.

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#72 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:09 PM
 
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I wasn't discounting your experiences. I just think it's odd that having the foreskin removed doesn't affect sex at all, makes absolutely no difference. It is illogical to ME. There are rare things in the world that really are black and white. Sexual experiences are NOT one of those things.
This is very much like a conversation I had a with a male on another board. He could not fathom how anyone could masturbate without a foreskin. He said he "winced" at the idea of using friction from your hand pulling immobile skin to try and cause orgasm.

I hope someday we can all think like this The idea of having no mobile penal skin will just make people cringe.

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#73 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:12 PM
 
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Clitoris to foreskin is a really ridiculous comparison, although on this forum I'm sure I will hear all about how it is not. But ya ain't gonna convince me, and over dramatization really weakens the argument.
:::

OH WOW!

I always suspected pro-circers were here on MDC, now there's one confirmation.

And my point was not to compare the clitoris to the foreskin as completely analogous structures, but to point out that just because SOME people can have enjoyable sex lives without their foreskins and clitorises, does not mean that there isn't a link between sexual dysfunction and circumcision.
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#74 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:13 PM
 
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:::

OH WOW!

I always suspected pro-circers were here on MDC, now there's one confirmation.
She def isn't! I guarentee. (you can even look up the thread she started in her Due Date Club about not circumcising)

Not that I have any more credibility on an anon forum!

(i know there are many other examples, but the DDc thing popped into my head first!)

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#75 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:14 PM
 
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There are plenty of pro-circers on MDC and many who are somewhere in the middle but do not think circ is as bad as we think it is.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying thismama is. I don't think that was clear.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#76 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:16 PM
 
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Yeah that's true. But they don't all have to be intactivists to change this horrible practice.

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#77 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:20 PM
 
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:::

OH WOW!

I always suspected pro-circers were here on MDC, now there's one confirmation.
Ooh yeah, I'm a rabid pro-circer coz I don't think clitoris to foreskin is an accurate comparison.

What was I saying about too much drama weakening the argument?
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#78 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:33 PM
 
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This thread took a disturbing turn. I don't get why the Op can't assume her own children will be hetero. Yes true they may ended up not but it's her children she could dream for them as she wishes. Just as a queer mama can wish the same for her kids. Did I miss something, maybe I should go back and re-read.
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#79 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:41 PM
 
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Ooh yeah, I'm a rabid pro-circer coz I don't think clitoris to foreskin is an accurate comparison.

What was I saying about too much drama weakening the argument?
Address this please:

Quote:
And my point was not to compare the clitoris to the foreskin as completely analogous structures, but to point out that just because SOME people can have enjoyable sex lives without their foreskins and clitorises, does not mean that there isn't a link between sexual dysfunction and circumcision.
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#80 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:43 PM
 
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This study which most of us have not heard of notwithstanding, the common understanding is that the clitoris is the central point of orgasm and without it most women do not orgasm.

If circed men could not orgasm, many of us would have no children and the North American birth rate would have fallen off the map.

Not the same thing.
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#81 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:45 PM
 
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Yes, it did. What is going on this last few days????

But I can certainly vouch from other threads that thismama is, in no way, a pro-circer.

But posts like this one

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There really isn't a difference at all. I speak from (a lot of) experience. IME, it does not make a difference.
are just as "over the top" ridiculous as anything on this thread. And down right insulting to those of us who struggle daily with the after affects of infant genital mutilation. I get that it is this poster's experience that it makes no difference to her. And I think she's very, very lucky.

But there are lots and lots of us who aren't so lucky. And who's to say whether future cut children will be in the lucky camp or the really crappy life-altering not-so-lucky camp.

Once again, here's a link to my story. And if you read the whole thread, you'll find several women who have had partners just like my dh, and one very brave man who describes his experience first-hand.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=469671
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#82 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:47 PM
 
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If circed men could not orgasm, many of us would have no children and the North American birth rate would have fallen off the map.

Not the same thing.
My circ'ed dh cannot orgasm through intercourse as a direct result of the desensitization that occurs as a result of a very tight circumcision. We were not able to have children together in the normal manner as he is unable to ejaculate into my vagina.
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#83 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:49 PM
 
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This study which most of us have not heard of notwithstanding, the common understanding is that the clitoris is the central point of orgasm and without it most women do not orgasm.

If circed men could not orgasm, many of us would have no children and the North American birth rate would have fallen off the map.

Not the same thing.
You seem to not be reading what I wrote well.

Quote:
And my point was not to compare the clitoris to the foreskin as completely analogous structures, but to point out that just because SOME people can have enjoyable sex lives without their foreskins and clitorises, does not mean that there isn't a link between sexual dysfunction and circumcision.
Whether or not you are/were aware of this study does not change the fact that women without their external clitorises are still orgasming and claim to have perfectly satisfying sex lives. Period. The same goes for circ'd men. My specific point was, and you've yet to address this, just because these people claim their sex lives are fine, that doesn't mean that circumcision of the clitoris and foreskin doesn't have a negative impact on sexuality. Please directly address that, and not whether or not the foreskin and the clitoris are the same. That isn't my point.
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#84 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:49 PM
 
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My circ'ed dh cannot orgasm through intercourse as a direct result of the desensitization that occurs as a result of a very tight circumcision. We were not able to have children together in the normal manner as he is unable to ejaculate into my vagina.
Yes, I am not denying that that sometimes happens. I have read your story (although I forgot it was yours) and that is tragic.

It is not, however, the norm for circed men. So... not the same as clitoral removal.
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#85 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:51 PM
 
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Whether or not you are/were aware of this study does not change the fact that women without their external clitorises are still orgasming and claim to have perfectly satisfying sex lives. Period. The same goes for circ'd men. My specific point was, and you've yet to address this, just because these people claim their sex lives are fine, that doesn't mean that circumcision of the clitoris and foreskin doesn't have a negative impact on sexuality. Please directly address that, and not whether or not the foreskin and the clitoris are the same. That isn't my point.
I absolutely do not buy that the vast majority of women without clitorises are achieving orgasm, or that the vast majority of men who are circed are not. Don't. Believe. It. It is not my experience or consistent with my knowledge on the issue, no matter what your study happens to say.

Not the same thing. Consider it directly addressed. If you want a direct analogy, maybe talk about clitoral removal vs. removing the head of the penis. That would probably be closer. Or foreskin removal vs. clitoral hood removal. There is a direct comparison.

The drama gets on my nerves.
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#86 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:58 PM
 
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I absolutely do not buy that the vast majority of women without clitorises are achieving orgasm, or that the vast majority of men who are circed are not. Don't. Believe. It. It is not my experience or consistent with my knowledge on the issue, no matter what your study happens to say.

Not the same thing. Consider it directly addressed. If you want a direct analogy, maybe talk about clitoral removal vs. removing the head of the penis. That would probably be closer. Or foreskin removal vs. clitoral hood removal. There is a direct comparison.

The drama gets on my nerves.
Where did I say the vast majority did anything?! I said some, yes, circumcised women acheive orgasm. People here are saying that because they, or their husbands have no problems in the sac, that "the foreskin has nothing to do with good sex" which I highly disagree with! The acceptance of some people's accounts to dismiss the negative impact circ has on sexuality is why I drew the comparison between circ'd women who said they had no problems. Just because these circ'd women have no complaints, doesn't mean removal of clitoris has no negative impact!

And how many times do I repeatedly have to say that I am not saying that the foreskin = clitoris? I am saying both of these structures, play a significant role in sensitivity and sexuality. The removal of these structures, can and does have a negative impact on some people's sexuality.

You say the drama gets on your nerves, but the dancing around the issue gets on my nerves. Can circumcision negatively affect a man's sexuality? Yes or no? If the answer is yes, whether it's the "vast majority" or not, why is that okay with you? Not to mention, that many men who do suffer from sexual dysfunctions never make the connection that it's their circumcisions that have caused them, and you've got an even larger picture.

I'm surprised this has to be discussed on the CAC.
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#87 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 03:58 PM
 
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Yes, I am not denying that that sometimes happens. I have read your story (although I forgot it was yours) and that is tragic.

It is not, however, the norm for circed men. So... not the same as clitoral removal.
My point is not to compare with clitoral removal. It is my belief that foreskin removal is analogous to clitoral hood removal which would result in massive desensitization of the clitoris.

My point was to argue the quote from littleaugustbaby that sex with a man with intact genitalia is exactly the same as sex with a man with cut genitalia. It is not. I'm glad that it's not a problem for her, but it is for many, many others.

And I do believe very strongly that circumcision-related difficulties ARE the norm for circed men at some stage of their life. Most people just don't know that what they are experiencing -- painful intercourse, erectile dysfunction, tight erections, whatever -- aren't supposed to BE the norm.
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#88 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 04:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by l_olive View Post
My point is not to compare with clitoral removal. It is my belief that foreskin removal is analogous to clitoral hood removal which would result in massive desensitization of the clitoris.

My point was to argue the quote from littleaugustbaby that sex with a man with intact genitalia is exactly the same as sex with a man with cut genitalia. It is not. I'm glad that it's not a problem for her, but it is for many, many others.

And I do believe very strongly that circumcision-related difficulties ARE the norm for circed men at some stage of their life. Most people just don't know that what they are experiencing -- painful intercourse, erectile dysfunction, tight erections, whatever -- aren't supposed to BE the norm.
Thank you!
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#89 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 04:20 PM
 
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thismama, I think the issue that needs to be addressed is this, and please correct me if I'm making any faulty assumptions...

You seem to reject the idea that male genital mutilation is the same kind of "wrong" that female genital mutilation is. So male circ is wrong, but just not AS wrong.

There are many of us here who do not follow that line of thought. Genital cutting is genital cutting and as such is a human rights violation which should be equally illegal for both sexes.

Bottom line.

Both sexes deserve to have intact genitals, and when adults, to have sexual relationships with partners with intact genitals. The OP has simply been saddened by the possibility that this won't be the case for her child.

Shouldn't be so dramatic, huh?
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#90 of 141 Old 11-12-2007, 04:27 PM
 
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Pardon if I am interpreting wrong:

I think she is just saying that type II/III FGM is not comparable to MGM.


WHich I feel is true. Even if we accept the studies that show the clitoris continues into the vagina, so cutting off the 'tip' isn't cutting the whole thing, it still doesn't exactly line up with male circumcision.

But type I does, and possible even some type IVs (not sure on that).

But when you move away from the mechanics of the action, then, yes, they are all comparable (all types female to male). They are all human rights violation, they all remove sexual tissue/reduce sensation, done without true consent, etcetc.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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