Sad for my daughter - Mothering Forums
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The Case Against Circumcision > Sad for my daughter
janellesmommy's Avatar janellesmommy 10:01 PM 11-11-2007
This occurred to me today: My son will enjoy a normal sex life because he is intact. My daughter is not guaranteed a normal sex life because her husband may be circumcised.

LavenderMae's Avatar LavenderMae 10:06 PM 11-11-2007
I have thought about this too. I wonder what are the odds my daughter will find and fall in love with an intact man (although I do not assume to know her sexual orientation).
SierraJ's Avatar SierraJ 10:08 PM 11-11-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by janellesmommy View Post
This occurred to me today: My son will enjoy a normal sex life because he is intact. My daughter is not guaranteed a normal sex life because her husband may be circumcised.

ummm..definition check on "normal"???
LionTigerBear's Avatar LionTigerBear 10:12 PM 11-11-2007
I know, I was thinking the same thing. : Okay, well, don't have a daughter yet, but I hope to someday. I'm going to discuss it with her though, when she's a teen.

On a lighter note, I was thinking of shipping this hypothetical future daughter off to Europe. I'll make sure she can speak French or Italian or something first. : Is that wrong? :
LionTigerBear's Avatar LionTigerBear 10:14 PM 11-11-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraJ View Post
ummm..definition check on "normal"???
Natural? Not painful? The way God and nature intended? Although circ'ed sex may be the norm in the US, in the span of mankind's years on earth it is not normal.
SierraJ's Avatar SierraJ 10:17 PM 11-11-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
Natural? Not painful? The way God and nature intended? Although circ'ed sex may be the norm in the US, in the span of mankind's years on earth it is not normal.

ahhh....definately makes sense. gracias.
phreedom's Avatar phreedom 10:19 PM 11-11-2007
I can't honestly say I've thought that far ahead...FWIW my DH is circumcised and our sex life is just fine. Of course neither one of us knows the alternative...but I hope no one feels sorry for me.

I'm NOT FOR circumcison...I'm just saying. Any future sons we have will NOT be getting circumcised.
iris0110's Avatar iris0110 10:47 PM 11-11-2007
I don't have a daughter so that thought hadn't occured to me, but sometimes I do worry about the women ds will meet. What if one of them really does pressure him about getting cut? I mean I know only a really shallow woman would do it, but I still don't want him feeling baddly about himself, or worse yet making a decision he would later regret for a girl. It would be so much better if circ wasn't the norm in the US. THen we wouldn't have to worry about these things.
pdx.mothernurture's Avatar pdx.mothernurture 11:09 PM 11-11-2007
janellesmommy,

Sad, and mostly true except it assumes our children will be heterosexual.

Jen

---

Some good resources explaining how circumcision drastically impacts normal sex, here are some resources for anyone who's interested:

How Male Circumcision May Be Affecting Your Love Life
by Dr. Christine Northrup


The Prepuce, Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9DoCn3gATE

The Prepuce, Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps1dkbcOKfA

The Lost List:
http://www.norm.org/lost.html

The Three Zones of Penile Skin:
http://www.foreskin.org/3zones-c.htm
blissful_maia's Avatar blissful_maia 11:11 PM 11-11-2007
This is a really weird thread! I would just support your daughter to have a healthy sex life with whoever she falls in love with - man, woman, circ'ed or not. Sheesh.
yarngoddess's Avatar yarngoddess 11:25 PM 11-11-2007
I never thought about that...
A&A's Avatar A&A 11:26 PM 11-11-2007
But your ds might be gay, and might have a circumcised partner. Just a thought.

If he is heterosexual, his female partner might have had an episiotomy, which is genital cutting, too.
smeep's Avatar smeep 12:49 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by phreedom View Post
I can't honestly say I've thought that far ahead...FWIW my DH is circumcised and our sex life is just fine. Of course neither one of us knows the alternative...but I hope no one feels sorry for me.

I'm NOT FOR circumcison...I'm just saying. Any future sons we have will NOT be getting circumcised.
But see...that's the "just fine" thing that many people use to justify it (and luckily you are not). People will circ their boys and say they're "just fine" or choose not to bf and say they turned out "just fine" but lots of times they DON'T turn out "just fine"...they just don't know that the child has decreased sexual sensitivity, they think it's normal and "just fine"...they don't know that their child getting sick 6 times a year is not normal and is really not "just fine" (btw, not saying ALL babies not bf get sick that often...you know what I mean lol). Therea re a lot of "just fine" excuses in parenting, but what they think is "just fine" is actually NOT "just fine" in comparison.

But I am glad if the two fo you are happy - clearly you cannot change the past, only the future, and make the best of the present.
jeca's Avatar jeca 12:52 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by janellesmommy View Post
This occurred to me today: My son will enjoy a normal sex life because he is intact. My daughter is not guaranteed a normal sex life because her husband may be circumcised.
It never occurred yo me that there was a big difference(for the woman) when it comes to sex with an intact versus Circ'd man, care to enlighten me? Dh is intact btw so I may just be clueless since it's been so long since I was with a circ man.
smeep's Avatar smeep 12:55 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeca View Post
It never occurred yo me that there was a big difference(for the woman) when it comes to sex with an intact versus Circ'd man, care to enlighten me? Dh is intact btw so I may just be clueless since it's been so long since I was with a circ man.
More lubrication, there's the whole gliding effect of the foreskin. In my experience, the one intact guy I was with was REALLY good and now taht I think back, I think it was the foreskin....but I haven't been with enough guys intact and circ'd to really be able to compare it. lol
mamajama's Avatar mamajama 12:58 AM 11-12-2007
I wouldn't worry about it. I mean, one doesn't even need to have a penis involved at all to have a normal sex life let alone a foreskin. I think there are plenty of people out here with perfectly fulfilling fantastic sex lives without foreskins involved.


ETA: There is just so much more to fulfilling sex than any sort of physical characteristic.
Papai's Avatar Papai 02:26 AM 11-12-2007
ooooh, the creeps come out at night.
hipmummy's Avatar hipmummy 02:29 AM 11-12-2007
I thought about that yesterday. I had only had very comfortable sex once. It has always been rough feeling. That one time was with a half circed male. Don't know what the story was, but just the tip was gone. He had plenty of skin left to retract. I wish dh was intact.
silverspook's Avatar silverspook 02:29 AM 11-12-2007
DH not having a foreskin brought our sex life to a halt after I birthed an 11 lb baby! Sex was always uncomfortable & made me sore for a day or so, but it was unbearably painful after baby. Now that he is restoring, it is 100x better! Interesting thread...
mamajama's Avatar mamajama 02:35 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papai View Post
ooooh, the creeps come out at night.
huh?

I think its a huge leap to say that you (general) might be having uncomfortable sex and therefore it's something to worry about for your daughter! There are just so many other variables that could come into play.
blissful_maia's Avatar blissful_maia 02:38 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamajama View Post
I wouldn't worry about it. I mean, one doesn't even need to have a penis involved at all to have a normal sex life let alone a foreskin. I think there are plenty of people out here with perfectly fulfilling fantastic sex lives without foreskins involved.
:
jellop's Avatar jellop 04:13 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by janellesmommy View Post
This occurred to me today: My son will enjoy a normal sex life because he is intact. My daughter is not guaranteed a normal sex life because her husband may be circumcised.
Has your daughter seen your sons intact penis? Because, honestly, I'd imagine that she'll grow up knowing the "intact" version is the norm, since her baby brother is intact. So really, the way I see it, by your son being intact, you actually INCREASE the likelihood of her being with an intact man, IMHO.
janellesmommy's Avatar janellesmommy 04:26 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellop View Post
Has your daughter seen your sons intact penis? Because, honestly, I'd imagine that she'll grow up knowing the "intact" version is the norm, since her baby brother is intact. So really, the way I see it, by your son being intact, you actually INCREASE the likelihood of her being with an intact man, IMHO.
She definitely will know about that, but I imagine she will fall in love with her soulmate, and hopefully he wil be intact, but it won't be something she can choose.
*bejeweled*'s Avatar *bejeweled* 04:38 AM 11-12-2007
Your daughter is 4 yo and you're sad about her future sex life?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????

Creepy.
pdx.mothernurture's Avatar pdx.mothernurture 05:19 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by *bejeweled* View Post
Your daughter is 4 yo and you're sad about her future sex life?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????

Creepy.
You know, people say the same thing when intactivists explain the sexual benefits of leaving boys intact. They think, "He's a baby! Who cares?" We're so focused on our children being small sometimes we forget that they're going to grow up and be autonomous adults. The OP isn't thinking about her daughter having sex, she just realized that given our culture and past circumcision rates it's fairly likely that her future partner(s) will be cut...and that means her daughter may essentially be 'stuck with' substandard sex.

Jen
graceomalley's Avatar graceomalley 06:14 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamajama View Post
I think there are plenty of people out here with perfectly fulfilling fantastic sex lives without foreskins involved.
Circumcised women in Africa are adamant that their sex lives are very fulfilling too, and cite the intimacy of the act as the important thing as well.

I hope my children have intact partners.
Astrogirl's Avatar Astrogirl 07:02 AM 11-12-2007
I really could care less, honestly. I've had both types of partners, ended up marrying an 'intact' european man, but i can safely say there was no reason for my mom to feel sad for me when I was with my circumcised partners. And to be brutally honest, before I became Anti-Circ - I preferred my sex life with the Circ'd men : Sorry to burst that bubble there.

I'm in the opposite boat - I'll be the one trying to bite my tongue if my daughters come home with a european man (or even a man at all ). Penis aside, they're a lot of work compared to the other men I've dated. : Between the culture clashes and 'where to live' neverending argument, as well as trying NOT to insult each other everytime we encounter a difference that we can't understand.....I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Besides, the circ rate in Canada is only 18%. I'd say her odds are pretty good.
mamajama's Avatar mamajama 07:21 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by graceomalley View Post
Circumcised women in Africa are adamant that their sex lives are very fulfilling too, and cite the intimacy of the act as the important thing as well.
And non-circumcised women in North America, with intact male partners say the same thing (my point being, that offering up counter-examples is sort of fallacious in light of the specificity of the thread subject). I understand your argument. I also think that sexism plays a big role in making women feel as if they need to say they enjoy sex with men when they don't. This happens in so many varying circumstances. Women generally do not achieve orgasm without clitoral stimulation at least at some point. So it is simply not the role of the penis (intact or not) to exclusively be the source of fulfilling and satisfying sex in a woman's physiological, emotional, psychological, or spiritual experience.
mamajama's Avatar mamajama 07:26 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrogirl View Post
Between the culture clashes and 'where to live' neverending argument, as well as trying NOT to insult each other everytime we encounter a difference that we can't understand.....I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Oh come now...doesn't that happen with everyone we date at some point?
graceomalley's Avatar graceomalley 09:22 AM 11-12-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamajama View Post
And non-circumcised women in North America, with intact male partners say the same thing (my point being, that offering up counter-examples is sort of fallacious in light of the specificity of the thread subject). I understand your argument. I also think that sexism plays a big role in making women feel as if they need to say they enjoy sex with men when they don't. This happens in so many varying circumstances. Women generally do not achieve orgasm without clitoral stimulation at least at some point. So it is simply not the role of the penis (intact or not) to exclusively be the source of fulfilling and satisfying sex in a woman's physiological, emotional, psychological, or spiritual experience.
Plenty of women DO achieve orgasm without clitoral stimulation. Have you read the recent medical studies which isolated nerve impulses during orgasm in circumcised women? It showed that the sensory experience which leads to orgasm through clitoral stimulation is indeed seen in women with no clitoris. Amazing. Then, on the other hand, many women who have chosen to have their foreskin removed say it enhances clitoral stimulation. In this case anecdotes are useless because everyone's experience is different and like you said, it's not just the physical side of it which is important.

However, my original point was to bring focus to a statement which was dismissive of the OP's concern, imo. It was also slightly sexist, but I will admit that I'm probably (hopefully) reading it the wrong way. I fully accept that not many people would even realize it's sexist because of the cultural conditioning which attributes foreskins only to males. Making sweeping statements which exclude one sex, when the excluded sex is anatomically (or otherwise) worthy of being included, isn't something I tolerate. By your linking of the penis with the statement "let alone a foreskin" you ignored the clitoral foreskin completely. And I don't know about you, but I'm pretty fond of mine. I don't like it to be ignored when we're talking about human rights issues, and I don't think it's a human rights issue which should be minimized. I certainly wouldn't want my foreskin to be cut off, and I wouldn't want my son's future wife to go through that agony either.

Yes I know, I know, completely fallacious when considering the specificity of the thread subject.
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