OK, I am trying to make the case for intactness to my DH. It's not going well.
One thing I think may get his attention is anything the Catholic Church may have said about the issue. I have no idea if they ever have, but I have a feeling that if they did it would not be favorable, as the church tends to be pretty 'natural'.
Can anyone help?
Baptism in place of Circumcision
You will find that the catholic belief is that baptism took place of circumcision.
Hope this helps.
|In Place of Circumcision
Furthermore, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.
This comparison between who could receive baptism and circumcision is an appropriate one. In the Old Testament, if a man wanted to become a Jew, he had to believe in the God of Israel and be circumcised. In the New Testament, if one wants to become a Christian, one must believe in God and Jesus and be baptized. In the Old Testament, those born into Jewish households could be circumcised in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they would be raised. Thus in the New Testament, those born in Christian households can be baptized in anticipation of the Christian faith in which they will be raised. The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ"—that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision.
I was going to post many of the same links...good luck!
Wow! I KNEW I could count on you guys! Those are very helpful links and I bookmarked them all.
I also wanted to let you know that we are a Catholic family and did not do a circumcision on our son. My husband's family are VERY Catholic and none of the men are cicumcised because they are from Ecuador (my husband was born in the U.S.). There are many countries all over the world that are predominately Catholic (Italy for one) where the males are not routinely circumcised like they are here in the U.S. (unless they are from the Jewish faith)--so this is culturally a U.S. thing.
Delta- what are his REAL concerns... I'm not talking about argument tactics- I'm asking about how he feels, what's really going on with him... has he been able to talk?
For example- if he has always thought of his circumcision as something that connected him to his faith... and now he knows that it has nothing to do with his faith- well, how would that make YOU feel?
I'm not sure I understand what you are asking Sarah?
The fact that he is circ'd has nothing to do with his faith and he knows that. He thinks our boy should be circ'd becuase he is, and because he thinks everyone else is. I've gathered all types of things for him to read regardning not circ'ing, and I also want to include a Catholicism aspect.
Well- I am asking you to look to the heart of HIS issue... not to gather your ammunition to simply launch at him but to understand the fortress he is walled up inside.
If he KNOWs the catholic stance on circumcision... why were you happy to have it as ammo?
He is a catholic... yet he is circumcised... how is he going to feel about that?
Why is it important for him to have a son with a genital scar similar to his?
Have you asked him where the emotion is coming from?
I went through this... It took about 5 years for my husband to get from there to where he is today... he is STILL in the process of recovering from the trauma of circumcision and the turmoil acknowledging it has brought to the surface.
looking back- along with profound embarassment and shame for wanting a circumcision on his son-
he looks back and remembers that he KNEW THEN that his desires were unnatural, out of character and wrong... but at that point when he was trying to come to terms with his confusion about his own feelings- I was in the middle of launching my assault of counter-arguments against him. If I had given him a chance to regroup- it would have been much more kind.
Instead of telling him he is wrong, why don't you ask him why... keep getting deepr into the feelings he DOES have instead of telling him to not connect ith them at all- he is going to have to encounter them to get over them... work with him, not against him.
All I m saying is that this damage done might be a much larger obstacle than you could ever imagine for him to overcome. He NEEDS you on his side.
I am not saying "agree"... i am saying- respect the trauma, don't think it's just nothing for him to get over and accept your arguments. it hurts. It's really big.
Sarah -- I understand what you are saying, and believe me, just because I didn't post about it here does not mean I am not sensitive to his own feelings about being circ'ed. I don't intend to 'bombard' him with info, but I want to be as informed as possible, So, I was simply here asking for info about Catholicism and circing and I just didn't feel a need to discuss his deeper issues.
You said he wants his son circumcised because he is.
For most parents, everything they do with their child is for the benefit of the child. However, what you are saying is that the circumcision your husband wants is for his benefit. There is no benefit for his son yet his son will have to bear the burden along with the risks of this benefit for the father. Does your husband understand this? Is this what he really wants? Or is it, as Sarah said, something deeper?
Food for thought . . . .
The Pope is certainly not circumcised!
The way I understand it, it's not a Catholic or Christian issue, but an American one. In Europe you'd be hard pressed to find a Christian, Catholic or otherwise, who would circumcise a son.
It's so weird to read this stuff as a European - like, MILs who say that an uncircumcised penis is ugly or weird.
: It just depends on what you're used to. To those who never dream of trying to 'improve' on God's design, a circumcised penis is truly ugly and a violation of the beauty of the human body.
I don't think many Catholic priests, certainly in Europe, are circumcised. When I came to the US and heard Baptist friends saying that circumcision was essential as it is 'Biblical', I asked some Baptist friends back in the UK about their view and they too were horrified. Nobody Christian there circumcises their sons, whatever their denomination.
I never saw a circumcised penis until I came to the US, and still cringe whenever I see a baby boy being changed.
Ditto all that, Britishmum!
Down to the...
|I never saw a circumcised penis until I came to the US, and still cringe whenever I see a baby boy being changed.
It was so nice in Italy, this summer, not to have to look away when seeing little boys naked (we were at the beach), ALL were whole and perfect! (Including my American-born boy!)