Good Information Needed for the Locker Room Debate - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 78 Old 12-14-2007, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My husband's concern with the whole circ issue is whether our son will feel *different* by being intact. Of course, with my current large circle of friends most of the boys are intact but I do realize that not everyone is as crunchy as our gang.
I'm just looking for some feedback on information I could pass on to my guy that might help aid my stance...
TIA
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#2 of 78 Old 12-14-2007, 11:14 PM
 
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If he had red hair, he could be teased, too? If he had glasses/a goofy smile/a club foot, he could be teased?
One of my friends has a comeback about how many quarters he can carry with his foreskin- and everybody laughs and no more is said. My two intact brothers were never teased about it, and are very happy they have it! Honestly, kids are going to get teased about something.

If your kid feels "different" he will probably say something to you at the time. I know lots of girls that felt "different" because they had or didn't have boobs... but none of their parents surgically altered them as children. If your son decides he wants it done when he is a legal adult, then, well, he can.

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#3 of 78 Old 12-14-2007, 11:14 PM
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I have two things to say:

1. Female perspective - I had breasts (not buds BOOBS!) by the time I was 10. We are talking D cup going into junior high, when most of my peers were going, "Gee? Is it time to maybe, kind of, start thinking about getting a training bra?" No one would advocate that I cut off my breasts so as not to look different than all the other girls changing for gym.

2. Male perspective - I have asked my husband if a lot of the guys he went to school with were intact. His response was, "How would I know?!" I then asked, "Well, don't guys look?" "LOOK AT WHAT?!"

So, I guess it's not true that all guys compare themselves to all other guys.
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#4 of 78 Old 12-14-2007, 11:17 PM
 
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My husband is intact. He tells me that guys NEVER checked each other out in the gym locker room, and if they did, they certainly didn't admit it to anyone. So no, he never once got teased about being intact and is inclined to think that's a myth promoted by those with an agenda toward RIC.
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#5 of 78 Old 12-14-2007, 11:29 PM
 
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Ok, hubby was in the navy right after high school, and said no one would dare look in the shower, in case someone thought they were gay. And it was never an issue in school, gym class, etc. In the navy, they did compare the size of their crap all the time, though :

---feeling like an emu on acid---
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#6 of 78 Old 12-14-2007, 11:31 PM
 
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Yeah! to all the previous posts. Neither of my sons is circ'd and our midwife told us about 40% of kids are not circ'd now.
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#7 of 78 Old 12-14-2007, 11:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llamalluv View Post

2. Male perspective - I have asked my husband if a lot of the guys he went to school with were intact. His response was, "How would I know?!" I then asked, "Well, don't guys look?" "LOOK AT WHAT?!"

So, I guess it's not true that all guys compare themselves to all other guys.
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#8 of 78 Old 12-14-2007, 11:32 PM
 
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My DH said noone looked either - not at school and not when he was in hockey. He said he *thinks* there were guys who were intact on his hockey team but doesn't remember because it was a total non-issue.
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#9 of 78 Old 12-14-2007, 11:36 PM
 
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Dp's response to the locker room argument: "the guy who is caught looking at another guy's penis or says something about another guy's penis would be the one getting teased...or worse..." He said no one ever looked or commented on each other's stuff in school. Since the circ rate is around 50% in most areas, girls will be used to seeing both and probably won't make a big deal out of it.

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#10 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 02:05 AM
 
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Ya, i definately agree with the making fun of the person looking thing.... I can't remember if it was here or not, but someone said their kid had someone say something when he was at the urinal and his reply was something like, "what are you laughing at, you are the one with half your penis cut off".
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#11 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 02:57 AM
 
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When I talked to dh about "the locker room argument," his response was, "Honey, the rule of the locker room is don't look."
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#12 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 03:42 AM
 
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My dh said the same thing. That's you'd have to be crazy to be looking!

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#13 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 04:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thixle View Post
My two intact brothers were never teased about it, and are very happy they have it! If your son decides he wants it done when he is a legal adult, then, well, he can.


both were born in the circ happy 80s and live in'soggy' PA

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#14 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 09:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoradoMama View Post
When I talked to dh about "the locker room argument," his response was, "Honey, the rule of the locker room is don't look."
:
When I first started posting here, my youngest ds was still at home. I asked him if he'd ever been teased for being intact, and he looked at me as if I had two heads! He also said something similar to the above.
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#15 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 10:20 AM
 
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My teen sons, who are active in certain sports, and actually shower for gym (something that seems to be going out of style). It has never been discussed, but they are showing no signs of angst because they have a foreskin.

It's only one data point, but an acquaintance (with whom I had never discussed circ), recently had a boy in a large university hospital near here, was changing her 6 - mo old, and he is intact. They are not the least bit crunchy, so maybe neonatal circ is really on the way out around here.
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#16 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 10:54 AM
 
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My 13 yr. old nephew is intact and he is probably one of the few in his class that is. Anyway, he has gym everyday and I asked him about the locker room thing and he said No way does that happen. They all try to change as fast as they can and avoid looking at each other. BTW he is very happy his parents chose to leave him intact!

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#17 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 11:33 AM
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I'll let you in on a little secret. This article explains your dh's real concerns:

http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vuln...ty_of_men.html


(But obviously don't share the article with your dh. It's just for you to read and think about.)

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#18 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 12:08 PM
 
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I will second what has already been said. It is not an issue and flawed logic to use this worry to support RIC.

I will add an interesting parallel with school uniforms, for what it is worth. My son's school was considering uniforms. One of the argumants was it would cut down on teasing kids because of their clothes. My son had recently been teased because he was wearing white boxer style underwear, which, by the way was not uncommon. Do we also have to make them all wear the same underwear? Teasing willl happen. No matter what. Make them wear unfiroms, other kids will still find something to tease others about. I bet, even if we could make everyone identical twins, they would still tease each other....

But that in no way justifies harming a child, going against the Hypocratic Oath, and ignoring our responsibilty to put the childs interest first.

Regards
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#19 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthmama369
My husband is intact. He tells me that guys NEVER checked each other out in the gym locker room, and if they did, they certainly didn't admit it to anyone. So no, he never once got teased about being intact and is inclined to think that's a myth promoted by those with an agenda toward RIC.
:
My dp is also intact and was never teased in the locker room.

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#20 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 01:40 PM
 
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I know a man that was born in the early 80s, grew up in Utah, and when asked if he was teased said, "Why would I be teased about it?" with a look on his face that said it never happened. However, the reality is that some boys are teased (I know a woman online that circ'd her son because her dh was "ridiculed" throughout high school for being intact. It always bugged me when she would post on sex topics with NONE of the problems everyone else was talking about). But, I was teased about a lot of things, like having white-blonde hair, but I never wanted to change that, and that would have been easy, painless, and not permanent. I just chocked it up to people being jealous that I had such gorgeous hair and they didn't If you teach your son to be proud of his body, of what he has that they don't, of what happened to them (and maybe a few good comebacks), then it won't be an issue. Even if he is teased, which isn't likely anyway, it won't mean that he will wish he was circ'd.

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#21 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 03:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by earthmama369 View Post
My husband is intact. He tells me that guys NEVER checked each other out in the gym locker room,
When I was in highs school and college, I think some guys do notice, but do it very casually or surreptitiously... I know I did...not for circ status, but "size."
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Originally Posted by earthmama369 View Post
...and if they did, they certainly didn't admit it to anyone.
You're certainly correct about that also. Anybody doing that would have been accused of being "queer," and certainly not something to help your reputation with the girls...
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So no, he never once got teased about being intact and is inclined to think that's a myth promoted by those with an agenda toward RIC.
I was never teased by anyone...and agree that it is mostly a myth...
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#22 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 04:00 PM
 
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To the OP:

Even IF feeling different was an issue (which it probably won't be), we live in a very mobile society. I'm not sure where you live, but are you sure your famliy will stay there? Even if you do, you won't know if your son might go to college in a place where most of the male students are intact. Or maybe he will move to a state or a country where most males are intact. Unless he stays in the place where you are currently living, who is to say whether he will be in the minority or the majority when he's older?
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#23 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 04:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DklovesMkandJK View Post


both were born in the circ happy 80s and live in'soggy' PA
Oh, yeah, one bro born 1976, one 1983, in KY-- one of the top 2 highest circ'ing states in the nation- about 85%

---feeling like an emu on acid---
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#24 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 04:37 PM
 
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I'm not sure the circ rate where you are, but what worked with my husband was to point out that in 2005 (the most recent stat I could find) only 9% of the boys in Ontario were circumcised. If anyone was going to look different it would be the cut boys not the intact boys.

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#25 of 78 Old 12-15-2007, 06:12 PM
 
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I know lots of girls that felt "different" because they had or didn't have boobs... but none of their parents surgically altered them as children.
Except, I believe, the Olsen twins. Fat lot of good THAT did them.

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#26 of 78 Old 12-16-2007, 01:49 AM
 
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At one point my sons were teased BECAUSE they were identical twins! We didn't surgically alter one of them to look different, or send on to a different school. Instead, we taught them how to deal with bullies and teasing.

Once you start performing surgery on your baby to make him "fit in", where does it stop?

BTW, my sons are 13 years old, and are appalled at the idea of infant circumcision. They have no idea of their friends are circumcised or not - because they don't look. If anyone DID comment, they would ask the other person why he was looking at my son's penis. One of my boys said "It's not like we wander around with our pants down, saying "Hey, look at my penis!""

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#27 of 78 Old 12-16-2007, 05:53 PM
 
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As some of you know, I posted on/off here about my DH arguing to get our DS circed. The "locker room" argument was DH's biggest "fear" of not circing. DS is 15 mo now and not circed. The arguments ended the night Dave (my DH) AGAIN brought up about how the ONE kid in his class that wasn't circed got teased, tortured and ridiculed all the time. In this argument Dave brought up all of this poor kid's other issues, up to and including: being fat, wearing glasses, having bad acne and being named Stacy. I responded with, "Do you suppose any of those are reasons why he got teased?"

While I feel bad for Stacy and believe kids should never tease, the point here is that kids will find something to tease over. We have to teach them resiliency and confidence in who they are. Teasers stop when they realize the "victim" isn't game.
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#28 of 78 Old 12-16-2007, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mama_ani View Post
I'm not sure the circ rate where you are, but what worked with my husband was to point out that in 2005 (the most recent stat I could find) only 9% of the boys in Ontario were circumcised. If anyone was going to look different it would be the cut boys not the intact boys.
How can I find out what the stats are for where I live? I'm outside of Philly. Incidentally, I asked my neighbor, a pediatrician, how often she sees uncirc'd boys. She said she sees uncirc'd boys about 30% of the time. She also said I'd have to retract my son rather than let him do it on his own when he's a bit older. I hadn't read too much about that issue before chatting with her but it sounded odd to me so I did a little research and know that she was incorrect. It's amazing to me how peds can be so misinformed!

Ok, so about my dh. He's totally not a macho guy and is super supportive of all things AP, natural, etc. I'm actually not entirely sure what his big beef is with this issue, but he has brought up the locker room issue before which is why I posted the question in the first place. Now that I've read some responses it really does seem like a no brainer - duh, of course boys don't look at each other like that, particularly after puberty.

I read the Vincent article and will try to approach it from that stance. I've also moved the Penn and Teller video up to the top of my Netflix queue.

Here's the interesting thing - dh's dad IS NOT circ'd. I wonder if that's what the big issue really is. I need to talk about it more with him - I've been bombarding him with information rather than asking him specifically why he's opposed.

Of course there's also the religious issue (I'm Jewish and dh's father is as well, although he was raised in an Evangelical Christian house - wild story, lol) but I've seen a lot of the Jews against Circ sites and they've absolutely strengthened my resolve.
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#29 of 78 Old 12-16-2007, 08:49 PM
 
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Will anecdotal evidence help? Because my brothers (twins) are almost 15 and play every violent school sport there is; football, lacrosse, wrestling, etc... They also live in a conservative suburb in the midwest and are intact. They are totally open to talking about it and have NEVER had anyone give them crap about it. They mentioned to my mom that one other guy on some team was uncut, so it is noticed at times, but not an issue in this day and age. That means it will LESS of an issue when our babes are in locker rooms.

I, on the other hand, was horribly teased in school. What kind of surgery could I have had for being mocked for: being a good reader, having long hair, being chubby, having a brother that died at age 2.5 (seriously, these are things I was actually teased about.) Good thing the cure for all that crap was SELF ESTEEM!

Of course, my kids homeschool, so the locker room thing is fairly moot...

Mom to three 14 y.o. rock star grrl, 5 y.o. knight in spazzy armour and baby Juniper, born still @39 weeks 4 days 2-3-10 .
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#30 of 78 Old 12-16-2007, 09:21 PM
 
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This is a huge concern for my DH as well. There were two boys in my class who were circ'd (that anybody knew of anyway) and they were teased and thought of as "freaks". I remember my friends saying things about how gross they are and they would never date them... DH and I went to the same school. Also, a guy in DH's grade was teased so much that he had himself circ'd in 11th grade. (This is what has contributed to his concern and it was a big hurdle for me as well)

I tell DH that more and more boys are intact these days, we will probably home school anyway, kids don't shower together that much anymore & oh well if he gets teased, if it's not about his penis it'll be about something else.


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