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She said, "please stop, you're scaring me..". *SAD UPDATE post 25*

4K views 48 replies 26 participants last post by  titania8 
#1 ·
.. and I said, "Well, you should be scared.. for your son".

That's how my conversation about circumcision ended with my very close to my heart cousin who is due to deliver her second son the last week in April. Her first son, who is 2.5 yrs old, was circumcised.

Quick back story..
After casually asking her about whether her 1st was circumcised and finding out the answer, we had a very fast "well, I think it's wrong", "well, I don't know much about it, but *D* wanted it done" kind of conversation about it.. She agreed to hear me out regarding circumcision and allow me to educate her since this next one is a little boy. She has no computer access and is pretty computer illiterate, anyway. Her husband is a very.. ummm.. "I am the man of the house" kind of guy. He's not jerky to her at all times, but the ultimate decision with just about anything is HIS, period.

I have printed out a BUNCH of information about it.. from the religious aspect (I know that we're not allowed to discuss that here, but they're not Jewish), pain, breastfeeding problems, the procedure itself, etc etc etc. I literally have a stack of papers almost an inch high. I talked to her on the phone today and mentioned that all of the info would be on the way this week. We talked a about it a tiny bit.. a little about the procedure itself, why it's still done these days, the threat of MRSA, adequate pain relief. Well, this is what I found out on her end.

She had an emergency c-section under general anesthesia and I guess, was pretty out of it. She knew NOTHING about what circ entails at all. She didn't research it, nothing.. she was under the impression that it was just always done. They never discussed it beyond the doctor asking, "is he getting circ'd?" - hubby pipes in with "OH yeah!!".

The day they did the circ, which was 48 hrs after his birth, I guess they had told them that he would be strapped to the board and given a sugar pacifier thing.. she said that she didn't want him to have that and that she didn't want him strapped to the board, either. So, hubby is actually allowed to hold baby J while doc circs him. I asked her out of curiosity how long Baby J had been gone from her arms while he was getting circ'd. She said, maybe 15-20 minutes. I said that unfortunately, it was probably pretty safe to assume he had no pain relief.. she said that surely he HAD to have something since hubby was there.. I said that it was highly doubtful. They simply didn't have enough time. She doesn't know for sure because she was so out of it and they never discussed it afterward!!!!! All she knows is that the baby wouldn't breastfeed for HOURS afterward.

She told me that she would go through all of the info.. that I could probably really easily convince her, but that there is no way in HELL we would be able to convince her hubby. He's that adamant about it. He's "cut" and "so was Baby J", "he's just not going to allow this".

We talked a little more about the procedure and risks.. and that's when she stopped me with "I really don't want to hear anymore and if you keep going, I won't want to read the paperwork, either.. So, please stop, you're scaring me..". I said, "Well, you should be scared.. for your son" and ended the conversation.

Does anyone have any links geared toward circumcised fathers? I mean, that would help convince HIM that it's ok for THIS son to stay whole?

This is not going to be easy at all. I mean, hell, he actually held his newborn down in the hospital to be circ'd with no pain meds.

So, let's say this information does convince her and he refuses to listen? What the hell do I do then? Let it go? She's a SAHM, who rarely leaves the house, who's over 950 miles away from me. I can guarantee this is going to cause a huge fight and it's quite likely that she'll cave
she's not headstrong at all.

Sorry this got so long, but I'm feeling rather overwhelmed right now. I KNOW I can convince her. I heard it in her voice and I felt it in her heart.. she's regretting it. She couldn't even bear to hear it. I just don't know what to do about HIM.. I've only met the guy once and that was 8 yrs ago.
 
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#27 ·
I couldn't help it.. I had to call her. I told her that I was very hurt that she lied to me. I told her that I didn't want to cut her out of my life, but she really really really hurt me by knowingly lying to me the way she did.



I also briefly told her about the only half-assed acceptable forms of pain relief.. and I HATED doing that. It was like I was giving her my permission or something. But I had to tell her, right?

She was bawling on the phone almost as hard I was. I told her that I still loved her and that I had to think for a while..
 
#28 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post

I failed. I failed miserably. I suck at this.
:

I wish to God I didn't know how wrong this was.
You know, you didn't fail. She did...she failed her son in her role as his ultimate protector.
 
#30 ·
Thanks so much for the hugs.. I really need them right now.

This was just my first REAL attempt at convincing someone not to circ. I poured my heart and soul into it and she just threw it all away without reading anything at all. And that baby boy will pay the consequences.


I KNOW how wrong it is, but I don't know if I can do this again. I'm the quiet, sort of shy, non-confrontational type. This is soooo why I usually keep my mouth shut and don't speak up. I feel so unbelieveably stupid and I don't even know why!!!

I just can't freaking believe she threw it all in the trash. It makes me want to hurl repeatedly.

Yet, I STILL LOVE HER!
 
#31 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post
Thanks so much for the hugs.. I really need them right now.

This was just my first REAL attempt at convincing someone not to circ. I poured my heart and soul into it and she just threw it all away without reading anything at all. And that baby boy will pay the consequences.


I KNOW how wrong it is, but I don't know if I can do this again. I'm the quiet, sort of shy, non-confrontational type. This is soooo why I usually keep my mouth shut and don't speak up. I feel so unbelieveably stupid and I don't even know why!!!

I just can't freaking believe she threw it all in the trash. It makes me want to hurl repeatedly.

Yet, I STILL LOVE HER!

I hate to say this, but a "friend" who lies to you, over something that is really important to you, AND throws something so important to you and which you personally made for her with such care out with the rubbish, really isn't much of a friend at all, it sounds exceptionally one sided.

Of course you feel hurt, anyone would feel hurt if they'd handmade a gift for someone and they then turned around and wrote a letter to say they'd just thrown it away, because they didn't want to look at it.

Liars make very bad friends, if I were you I'd drop her and go find some nice people to be friends with, who you can trust to tell you the truth.
 
#33 ·
Daisy - I know.. I know that I should just say goodbye to her, but if I totally write her off, I'd be down to only one friend, who also lives out of state (both are over 900 miles away from me). I wish I had the option to get out and make more, but because I've got some medical issues and other crap to deal with plus no job, I have zero social life. As far as friends go, outside of the internet, I have my DH, my best friend in another state, and her. That's it.
She's my family and other than a couple years, we've been extremely close since early childhood.

I had pretty much accepted that there was a chance that she would circ anyway.. I knew that was possible. I had gotten myself to the point that I would probably be able to work through it and keep our relationship. But LYING to me over something so important to me?
I'm just so unbelieveably hurt and I know it's going to take me a long while to get over this, if I ever do.

Smokering - No, he hasn't been born yet. She is due in early April. They're going to do it.. that I have no doubt.

Maybe by some miracle, the ultrasound tech was wrong and it's not a boy, afterall. It's probably silly to even think that, but...
 
#34 ·
Her boy is still safe in her womb, intact; this isn't over yet. I can't help but wonder if you address the issue with her once more, even over the phone, open up a Bible and just read her the verses and just flat out tell her that if she does this you will not feel the same way about her as a person and you're not sure if you can maintain a friendship with *anyone* who would choose ignorance to avoid guilt or who would knowingly do something damaging and abusive to her child. Throwing away the information you sent wasn't just careless---it was negligent. Maybe if she realizes that it's not just your friendship but respect for her as a fellow civilized human being that's on the line it would cause her to reconsider.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation.


Jen
 
#35 ·
I have been through a very similar situation. Twice. It's very difficult and I know others on here have been through the same thing. It's a good place to come to vent about it though!


I am even going to attempt the intactivism again with my own brother and his soon-to-be wife. I am trying to now gather up the strength for the long battle ahead...

But anyway, I truly think that the absolute hardest thing for me to grasp is women who seem to be against circ but somehow cannot muster up the courage/energy/whatever to stop it from being done. I guess the whole male problem I don't totally get either, but I can guess I can grasp it in some way. They don't want to think that was done to them was wrong or that they are somehow not complete in some way. Yeah, I guess I can get that psychology on an objective level.

However, I fundamentally just DO NOT get women who can't stand up against it. How else can it be explained than they must have the belief that they are actually inferior to men?! Is any other possible explanation? Truly, I would love there to be one because that explanation makes me all kinds of angry and sad. I guess the only other reason could be that they want someone else to make decisions for them. That they want to somehow be excused from any sort of difficult situations and let someone else handle them--hide behind their husbands as it were.

But whatever it is, I have a VERY hard time getting over it. I just want to shake these women and say "wake up and stand up for yourself! If not for you, then do it for the rest of us."
 
#37 ·
pdx.mothernurture -

Thankyou, Jen..

I have been sitting here crying off and on for the last few hours. If I could get it out of my head, I could probably stop.. but I can't stop thinking about it!

It may not be, but I do feel like it's over.. but you're right. I don't know for sure that is. Maybe it's just my defeatist attitude I have right now talking, though.

MoonJelly and kidspiration -

I know that her husband is adamant over it.. that's where I thought I'd have the problem. Me convincing her and then her (and me) convincing him. But it never even got that far.

I KNOW that she knows it's wrong. Why else would she be agonizing over just opening the box? Because she KNEW what was inside. She knows deep down that it's wrong. She just didn't want to face it.

Hubby is circ'd, the first son is circ'd, and this one will be circ'd because, well...
I know that we can't get into religious discussions here, but, the religion thing is apparently THE main thing with her and her hubby (they are not Jewish, btw). In the packet of info that I sent her, there were multiple printouts regarding that aspect that an MDC member linked me to. All of it, tossed in the trash


I may try again once more.. but not for a while.

My INSANELY pro-circ brother and his girlfriend are also expecting a baby. I really hope that this one isn't a boy, too, or I just might lose it. There is no way whatsoever they would leave him intact
 
#38 ·
Oh...............


You didn't fail, you did everything you could have possibly done. The person who failed was your friend who couldn't be bothered to read the info you took so much time to get together.

Whats that saying??? You can lead a horse to water......
 
#39 ·
Oh...............


You didn't fail, you did everything you could have possibly done. The person who failed was your friend who couldn't be bothered to read the info you took so much time to get together.

Whats that saying??? You can lead a horse to water......
 
#40 ·
Oh...............


You didn't fail, you did everything you could have possibly done. The person who failed was your friend who couldn't be bothered to read the info you took so much time to get together.

Whats that saying??? You can lead a horse to water......
 
#42 ·
Oh...............


You didn't fail, you did everything you could have possibly done. The person who failed was your friend who couldn't be bothered to read the info you took so much time to get together.

Whats that saying??? You can lead a horse to water..........
 
#44 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post
I couldn't help it.. I had to call her. I told her that I was very hurt that she lied to me. I told her that I didn't want to cut her out of my life, but she really really really hurt me by knowingly lying to me the way she did.



I also briefly told her about the only half-assed acceptable forms of pain relief.. and I HATED doing that. It was like I was giving her my permission or something. But I had to tell her, right?

She was bawling on the phone almost as hard I was. I told her that I still loved her and that I had to think for a while..
I think you did the right thing. You did the best you could.
 
#46 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisyuk View Post
I hate to say this, but a "friend" who lies to you, over something that is really important to you, AND throws something so important to you and which you personally made for her with such care out with the rubbish, really isn't much of a friend at all, it sounds exceptionally one sided.

Of course you feel hurt, anyone would feel hurt if they'd handmade a gift for someone and they then turned around and wrote a letter to say they'd just thrown it away, because they didn't want to look at it.

Liars make very bad friends, if I were you I'd drop her and go find some nice people to be friends with, who you can trust to tell you the truth.
:
 
#47 ·
Dee, I'm sorry that after you went through all that work you weren't able to get through to your cousin. I agree with one of the PP's--this isn't lost yet! I've also PM'd you about some responses you can give her.

Smilies requested by The Kid
:
:
 
#48 ·
I hate to bump this back up, but I just wanted to thank you all for your suggestions and to let you know that I'm taking them ALL to heart.

A few of you have messaged me giving me advice, as well.. again, thank you so much!! You've all got me thinking.. I'm coming up with even more questions for her.

Once I can get my head totally straight, meaning.. without blowing up in a complete rage at her, I have every intention to give it another shot. I'm not about to go through re-mailing information again, but I plan on some heart to heart convos over the phone using much of the info you all have PM'd me with. I may eventually get hung up on
but, I still have to try.

At this point, she isn't angry with me. My cousin has a heart, she really does.. I know that it doesn't seem that way, but it's true.

I really think that she truly believes that by doing this, she is 1) honoring her religion, and 2) honoring her husband. For her, there is no other path to take. She's not doing this with the thoughts of it's "unclean", "infectious", or "teasing".. I do know that. And she's genuinely concerned about his pain.

Ugh.. if I could only bypass her "this is out of my hands, I have to let them do this" spiel and get through to HER, I might have a chance.
I wish SO much that I could get her onto MDC, but they don't have internet access


Please don't think that I'm trying to make excuses for her, I swear I'm not. I'm still beyond furious with her.. but I have a renewed hope this afternoon. Maybe it's just because I know deep down that I will never be able to forgive her for it, and the thought of not having her in my life just breaks my heart... I don't know.
 
#49 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post
I hate to bump this back up, but I just wanted to thank you all for your suggestions and to let you know that I'm taking them ALL to heart.

A few of you have messaged me giving me advice, as well.. again, thank you so much!! You've all got me thinking.. I'm coming up with even more questions for her.

Once I can get my head totally straight, meaning.. without blowing up in a complete rage at her, I have every intention to give it another shot. I'm not about to go through re-mailing information again, but I plan on some heart to heart convos over the phone using much of the info you all have PM'd me with. I may eventually get hung up on
but, I still have to try.

At this point, she isn't angry with me. My cousin has a heart, she really does.. I know that it doesn't seem that way, but it's true.

I really think that she truly believes that by doing this, she is 1) honoring her religion, and 2) honoring her husband. For her, there is no other path to take. She's not doing this with the thoughts of it's "unclean", "infectious", or "teasing".. I do know that. And she's genuinely concerned about his pain.

Ugh.. if I could only bypass her "this is out of my hands, I have to let them do this" spiel and get through to HER, I might have a chance.
I wish SO much that I could get her onto MDC, but they don't have internet access


Please don't think that I'm trying to make excuses for her, I swear I'm not. I'm still beyond furious with her.. but I have a renewed hope this afternoon. Maybe it's just because I know deep down that I will never be able to forgive her for it, and the thought of not having her in my life just breaks my heart... I don't know.

 
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